Malaysian Airlines flight MH-17 shot down 295 dead.

[FPPF]

Apparently they did find WMDs but because the US itself had supplied the dangerous chemical agents and their delivery systems, it would be a worse look to discover their own weapons.

So they found mobile chemical weapons labs in the back of semi trailers did they?

The whole world (well maybe excluding some people here) know the West supplied Saddam with wmds. The pretext for invading though wasn't those weapons but the allegations that he was making his own. Claims which are now known to be false.

So why 12 years later should we believe their latest claims?

They claimed not long ago Assad used chemical weapons on his own people...only that got swept under the rug quickly after a UN report came out that showed the terrorists were the ones who used a chemical weapon.

But we should believe them still right? Well some people think so. I prefer to think neither side is telling the truth or the whole truth.

 

[FPPF]

The Ukrainian forces are the legitimate monopolisers of violence in the country. Their actions may be reprehensible, and if that could be proven in the hague then those responsible should be prosecuted. That doesn’t excuse the illegitimate cowboys that shot down a commercial airliner.

Why are the separatists illegitimate? Can one of the guys in here with a pro-Ukraine/USA attitude tell us?

Why are the ethnic Russian separatists in Ukraine illegitimate for the West(along with the breakaway republics in Georgia), but the ethnic Albanian separatists who were actually a listed terrorist organization(KLA) were legitimate?

Can someone explain why it's acceptable for the United States of America and it's regional allies, to supply weapons, and train the terror groups fighting in Syria against Assad? But why it isn't ok for Russia to provide weapons to ethnic Russian's in Ukraine's civil war?

This goes to the crux of what I'm saying. It's all about geopolitical interests, and neither side will tell the truth, but instead use propaganda.
Tune in to Russian media. You'll get their version.

 

[Long Live HFC]

Why are the separatists illegitimate? Can one of the guys in here with a pro-Ukraine/USA attitude tell us?

sure. there was an election. which they boycotted and threatened violence against those who didn't. they had an option to form part of the new parliament and decided not to.

 

[awaremind]

The rebels used the same tactics of the Maidan protestors though, taking over government buildings, and similarly to the maidan protestors had a large number, - about 40, among them several women burnt live(maidan had 100 shot"heavenly hundred") by Right sector football "ultras".

This was brushed aside, and then of course it was going to be war. How can a an election be considered legitamate when mobs of neo nazi rioters are beating and throwing opposition politicians into garbage bins.

 

[Long Live HFC]

and if the rebels had the numbers maybe they'd be the legitimate monopolisers of violence in the country. but they didn't, and don't. these kinds of democracy teething problems are all about the numbers. the maidan protests led to elections and a new parliament. the rebels' actions led to the shooting down of a commercial jet and civil war.

 

[awaremind]

Its inseparable, the east, quite legitimately in hindsight, thought a genocide or at least oppression was going to occur.

 

[awaremind]

What kind of a term is legitimate monopoliser of violence any way? I could just imagine a US president claiming that they are the legitimate monopolisers of violence in the world. We can kill you, and you have to take it. No one can accept this.

 

[Long Live HFC]

What kind of a term is legitimate monopoliser of violence any way?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monopoly_on_violence

 

[Zidane98]

This is what happens to Russian politicians who stand up to Russia's disgraceful actions in East Ukraine:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-31669061

Something is seriously wrong over in Russia.

 

[Zidane98]

Obviously that is what this thread is about, but at worse it appears to be an accident by rebels, at worst a false flag conspiracy to push for greater support for Ukraine in the war. And regardless of that this is about a violent coup, a nation destroying itself with heavy weapons, and more lately an absolutely inept military and political farce in which the Ukraine sacrificed 3000 of its soldiers in Debaltsevo, and up to a third of its weaponry. In the last ceasefire Poroshenko boasted on video of how they were using the ceasefire to regroup and prepare for another offensive. Its a bad look. Debaltsevo was a slaughter, the political ramifications of this disaster are yet to hit home for Kiev, It may well set off another revolution, in which the armed neo-nazi militias unite for a true Nazi coup.

Poroshenko is a US agent, this is proven here.
https://wikileaks.org/plusd/cables/06KIEV1706_a.html

Wow. Just wow. How much more evidence do you need?

http://www.freemalaysiatoday.com/ca...ock-as-militia-realise-wrong-plane-shot-down/

The rebels celebrated the shooting down of the aircraft. They soon changed their tune when they discovered it was a civilian aircraft.


There is absolutely zero evidence at all to suggest any sort of "false flag" event unless you consider the mindless bullshit fed by Russian news agencies that borders on embarrassing (remember the satellite "image" showing a fighter jet "shooting" down MH17).

 

[Zidane98]

Separatists have been demanding welfare payments be made to the region from the Ukranian government in cash.

Surely if they believe themselves to be legit they would take on paying welfare payments themselves?

Don't they claim to be their own country?

 

[FPPF]

Actually since it's a potential all out war you'd think they'd need a hell of a lot of evidence and verified facts before launching into anything. This isn't Iraq or Afghanistan but a rival whose got the capability to wipe out life on this planet several times over. Some of you may be gunho ready but I see you on an Internet forum not in an ADF uniform.

There is the story of the separatists radio chatter about the shooting down of what they thought was a Ukrainian military transport, an AN-24 I believe.

Has that been verified?
And by verified I don't mean the irrational mutterings of the nazis who've seized power in Kiev who also wanted to ban the Russian language and some whom even said killing all ethnic Russians was an option.

Still, nobody seems to like to talk about how our own government has entered into an agreement to keep secrets regarding MH17. What are they hiding? Are you guys genuinely not interested or concerned? If our government can lie about the submarines...

 

[Zidane98]

You can't be serious? You do realise that Russia are a party to the investigation?

We have the rebels celebrating shooting down the plane on video. We have them on the phone discussing it. We have witnesses from Snizhne and photographs showing a smoke trail from a missile launched nearby. There's photos and videos of the rebels moving a missile launcher back to Russia - all verified.

There's absolutely no doubt that the aircraft was downed by pro russian rebels with equipment supplied by russia.

 

[CountryRace]

why did Ukraine, the Netherlands, Australia and Belgium sign a non-disclosure agreement ?

 

[awaremind]

You can't be serious? You do realise that Russia are a party to the investigation?

We have the rebels celebrating shooting down the plane on video. We have them on the phone discussing it. We have witnesses from Snizhne and photographs showing a smoke trail from a missile launched nearby. There's photos and videos of the rebels moving a missile launcher back to Russia - all verified.

There's absolutely no doubt that the aircraft was downed by pro russian rebels with equipment supplied by russia.

There was never any doubt, even before it occured, who the west would blame.

All the proof are either circumstancial or falsifiable.
Like I've said before thier is a certain amount of justice in the west being affected directly by this conflict, whoever did the deed as we were fully supporting a government that was killing its own civilians with air to surface missiles from fighter jets. Even now they are still shelling civilian areas of donetsk night after night in an attempt to derail the ceasefire.

 

[awaremind]

This is what happens to Russian politicians who stand up to Russia's disgraceful actions in East Ukraine:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-31669061

Something is seriously wrong over in Russia.

He was with a ukranian at the time interestingly enough, once again you are very quick to blame without any real proof. Putin would not have ordered this - he doesn't even need to eliminate such an insignificant figure. It is however very convienient for the pro-war propaganda machine.

 

[Long Live HFC]

why did Ukraine, the Netherlands, Australia and Belgium sign a non-disclosure agreement ?

aliens.

 

[awaremind]

aliens.

No CIA illuminati satanic cult reptilian alien nazi junta in Kiev, you know that gets me 50$ for each keyword.

 

[Zidane98]

He was with a ukranian at the time interestingly enough, once again you are very quick to blame without any real proof. Putin would not have ordered this - he doesn't even need to eliminate such an insignificant figure. It is however very convienient for the pro-war propaganda machine.

People who speak out against Russia's atrocities have a habit of disappearing or ending up dead. I wouldn't put this past Putin ' s cronies whatsoever.

 

[Zidane98]

There was never any doubt, even before it occured, who the west would blame.

All the proof are either circumstancial or falsifiable.
Like I've said before thier is a certain amount of justice in the west being affected directly by this conflict, whoever did the deed as we were fully supporting a government that was killing its own civilians with air to surface missiles from fighter jets. Even now they are still shelling civilian areas of donetsk night after night in an attempt to derail the ceasefire.

Yeah, you're either a paid Russian troll or completely brainwashed by Russian propaganda. There's no possible way that every single piece of evidence proving the rebels guilt is fake.

And how lovely of you to say that 298 innocent civilians deserved to be murdered by a bunch of vodka drinking gun touting rebels because normal countries are appalled by the murderous destruction caused by the Russian backed rebels in East Ukraine.

What a world we live in when there's people who think in such a way.

 

[awaremind]

People who speak out against Russia's atrocities have a habit of disappearing or ending up dead. I wouldn't put this past Putin ' s cronies whatsoever.

Whenever the USA wants a war, innocent people convieniently end up dead too. I wouldn't put it past either side, or even rogue elements. It makes absolutely no strategic sense to have killed this guy though for Putin.

 

[awaremind]

Yeah, you're either a paid Russian troll or completely brainwashed by Russian propaganda. There's no possible way that every single piece of evidence proving the rebels guilt is fake.

And how lovely of you to say that 298 innocent civilians deserved to be murdered by a bunch of vodka drinking gun touting rebels because normal countries are appalled by the murderous destruction caused by the Russian backed rebels in East Ukraine.

What a world we live in when there's people who think in such a way.

You seem to be the one who ascribes different levels of value to human lives based on the region they live in, its amazing people still think this way too.

 

[FPPF]

You can't be serious? You do realise that Russia are a party to the investigation?

We have the rebels celebrating shooting down the plane on video. We have them on the phone discussing it. We have witnesses from Snizhne and photographs showing a smoke trail from a missile launched nearby. There's photos and videos of the rebels moving a missile launcher back to Russia - all verified.

There's absolutely no doubt that the aircraft was downed by pro russian rebels with equipment supplied by russia.

Really? There's no doubt is there?
Then show us this proof that leaves no doubt.

The media you rely on to form your opinions and beliefs, such as who was responsible, are part of the war machine, they are part of the military industrial complex and serve their role as the propaganda outlets.
Yet you believe in them like JGod is delivering a gospel to you in person.

Who cares if fairies are involved. Our government has signed an agreement to keep secrets. That does not worry or concern you? You are not intrigued as to what secrets they are keeping, and why?


If you are so concerned about innocent civilians being butchered, why are you only vocal about this incident?
Could it be because Australians died in this incident and not in others?

There's plenty of wars and conflicts and atrocities happening around the world all the time. I don't see you commenting about those.

 

[Zidane98]

Really? There's no doubt is there?
Then show us this proof that leaves no doubt.

The media you rely on to form your opinions and beliefs, such as who was responsible, are part of the war machine, they are part of the military industrial complex and serve their role as the propaganda outlets.
Yet you believe in them like JGod is delivering a gospel to you in person.

Who cares if fairies are involved. Our government has signed an agreement to keep secrets. That does not worry or concern you? You are not intrigued as to what secrets they are keeping, and why?


If you are so concerned about innocent civilians being butchered, why are you only vocal about this incident?
Could it be because Australians died in this incident and not in others?

There's plenty of wars and conflicts and atrocities happening around the world all the time. I don't see you commenting about those.

The proof. Let's see:

- phone intercepts published by the SBU 3 hours after the shootdown. The rebels think they shoot an AN-26 down and publish as much on their Russian social media pages. There's no way that a phone conversation could be "faked" within 3 hours of the shootdown. The rebels have also not denied the authenticity of the intercepts
- pictures and videos of a Russian BUK missile transiting the area on 17/07.
- zello phone conversations (a walkie talkie app used by rebels ) of the rebels discussing the shootdown
- video just released of the rebels ransacking the crash site expecting it to be a Ukranian aircraft.
- photographs from a resident of snizhne near the buk missile launch location of a missile smoke trail. Photo verified to be authentic and taken 4 minutes after the shootdown. Snizhne was rebel held at the time.
- burn marks on a field matching the location of the smoke trail photograph in rebel held area.


If you honestly believe that these are all faked it is clear that you refuse to believe anything other than pro russian rhetoric. Any reasonable person would come to the logical conclusion that MH17 was shot down by Russian backed rebels. The evidence is blatant and conclusive. See more at bellingcat mh17 for more proof.

 

[Zidane98]

And our government hasn't signed a deal to keep anything secret. In any criminal investigation information is withheld until it is completed so as not to undermine the investigation. It's the same for any crime anywhere. You conveniently also ignore the fact that Russia are a party to the investigation.

Also, last thing the investigators want is those scumbag rebel filth knowing that the investigators are on to them.

I'm concerned about innocent civilians everywhere. That's why I find Russia's actions so reprehensible in this war - their aim is to undermine Ukraine, maintain a "frozen" conflict and bring the country to its knees with the financial burden imposed by the war. They don't give a s**t about the residents of Eastern Ukraine. They care only about maintaining a stranglehold over Ukraine in anyway possible.

Furthermore I have a work colleague who has Ukrainian parents. They are from Kharkiv originally which hasn't succumbed to rebel scum yet.

Disturbingly this happened there recently:

http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukr...ck-hiding-in-russia-nalyvaichenko-382075.html

The rebels attacked a peaceful protest against Russia's war. They are nothing but terrorists and need to be removed as soon as possible to ensure that Donbass residents are able to return and live in peace.