Malaysian Airlines flight MH-17 shot down 295 dead.

[Zidane98]

Like I've said before Autopsies should be damning

They will be. Who do you think should be punished for the shootdown? Do you think Russia bears any responsibility? Or do you believe they shouldn't accept any responsibility for the act and blame totally lies with the rebels?

 

[awaremind]

If it turns out the western Narrative is conclusively proven, then at least someone who gave orders to fire not knowing what it was should be punished, or if they did know and still shot it then whole chain should be punished. I'm sure it would be a whole other level of hard to determine who got it sent there unless some whistle blowing type with a death wish can speak up...But some of the blame lies with Kiev government, for A) allowing passenger jets when it was clearly risky, B) For Bombing and using missiles from its fighter jets against (supposedly its own)civilian populations which in turn encouraged the use of surface to air missiles.

 

[Zidane98]

It wasn't clearly risky. All other shootdowns by the rebels were shoulder launched. The Ukranians had no knowledge of the Russians providing SAM missiles.

And the Ukranian fighter jet ground attacks were against rebel military targets that had previously attacked Ukranian government forces.

 

[awaremind]

A plane had been shot down at over 6000 metres possibly by a Buk. Setting up a no fly -zone is how you assist an insurgency to great success apparently.

 

[Zidane98]

A plane had been shot down at over 6000 metres possibly by a Buk. Setting up a no fly -zone is how you assist an insurgency to great success apparently.

There were no fly zones set up to 10km altitude. Sufficient for the shoulder based weapons typically available to illegitimate rebel groups. If the Russians told the Ukranians officially of the BUK missiles they were supplying to the rebels it would have resulted in the immediate closure of all eastern Ukranian airspace. But they didn't and must be held accountable for this tragedy and must not be allowed to clandestinely funnel weapons to rebel groups.

 

[awaremind]

I knew they had Buk, it was being reported that they recovered "Advanced Anti-Aircraft" systems (presumably Buk) from UAF base at least several days before the 17th.

 

[Zidane98]

I knew they had Buk, it was being reported that they recovered "Advanced Anti-Aircraft" systems (presumably Buk) from UAF base at least several days before the 17th.

Right. And did they notify the Ukranian authorities that they would blast any plane that moved out of the air without identification & prejudice?

I severely doubt it. And all of the Ukranian BUKS were derelict. The missile fired was used only in Russian military units. Furthermore the evidence shows the Russians gave one to the rebels and brought it in on the morning of July 17.

The blame for the shootdown is 100% at the hands of the russians & rebels.

 

[awaremind]

Right. And did they notify the Ukranian authorities that they would blast any plane that moved out of the air without identification & prejudice?

I severely doubt it. And all of the Ukranian BUKS were derelict. The missile fired was used only in Russian military units. Furthermore the evidence shows the Russians gave one to the rebels and brought it in on the morning of July 17.

The blame for the shootdown is 100% at the hands of the russians & rebels.

The UAF was hitting Residential apartment buildings and killing women and children (saw the pictures, looked at the map too) in Donetsk air strikes. More than 500 civilians had already been killed in the fighting. Ukraine's actions have been disgusting, Russia's not lots better.

 

[Zidane98]

The UAF was hitting Residential apartment buildings and killing women and children (saw the pictures, looked at the map too) in Donetsk air strikes. More than 500 civilians had already been killed in the fighting. Ukraine's actions have been disgusting, Russia's not lots better.

Rebels would often position grad rocket launchers in residential areas which was reported by the OSCE. They were the targets of ground attacks. Targeting of civilians is another russian myth just like their imaginary nazis, their imaginary fighter attacks on mh17 and their imaginary war against nato.

In any case an aircraft in level flight at 33,000 feet is no threat to ground targets.

 

[awaremind]

Ukrainian forces shelled railway terminal buildings in Donetsk

The Ukrainian army have shelled the railway terminal in Donetsk. It is reported that today Sunday 22 March at 11 o'clock, Kiev forces attacked buildings in the terminal, the main focus of the of their aggression was the three-storied administrative building in the Terminal area. The type of the armament used in the attack has not yet been established. This is the latest such attack by Ukrainian forces that deliberately target Donetsk civilians going about their daily life, this type of terror tactic is used by Kiev against local populations who are opposed the US/NATO supported fascist regime of Petro Poroshenko.
A spokesperson of the Defence Ministry of the DPR said, "a direct hit was fixed at about 11 o’clock in the 3-stories building in the territory of the terminal".

 

[Zidane98]

Yet when you read OSCE reports by observers nearly all reports of cease fire violations are attacks on government held areas. I know who I'd believe between them and the Russians or the so called "defence minister" of the imaginary DPR.

Not to mention the rebels completely destroyed Donetsk Airport cutting off all civilian services. Donetsk Airport has not been used for military operations whatsover.

 

[Zidane98]

There is no targeting of civilians. If there was a hint of truth to that it would be all over UN & OSCE reports and the rest of the world would come down on Ukraine like a tonne of bricks.

The only source reporting targeting of civilians is rebel / russian sources and is absolute propaganda to the extreme.

 

[awaremind]

There is no targeting of civilians. If there was a hint of truth to that it would be all over UN & OSCE reports and the rest of the world would come down on Ukraine like a tonne of bricks.

The only source reporting targeting of civilians is rebel / russian sources and is absolute propaganda to the extreme.

You are beyond help.

 

[awaremind]

The report I just read seemed to indicate the war is picking up again... stupid US is giving incentive to the Ukrainians to prolong the war by saying if Minsk fails, they will recieve more arms. Also if Minsk fails sanctions will continue. This de-incentivises peace. Europe needs to slap Ukraines government into actually wanting peace, the US has absolutely been a warmonger here.

 

[Zidane98]

Are you insane? The rebels refused to enter into peace talks. Nearly all reports of cease fire violations by the OSCE are attacks on government held positions. And you blame them. You are a propagandist to the extreme.

 

[awaremind]

Are you insane? The rebels refused to enter into peace talks. Nearly all reports of cease fire violations by the OSCE are attacks on government held positions. And you blame them. You are a propagandist to the extreme.

Speak for self, do better research, Kiev is the party refusing to negotiate directly with Plotnitsy and Zakharchenko, and they did have an input in the Minsk talks even if not actually there. There have been many reports of shelling from both sides, and now its starting to reignite. The only people who want this war are not Ukraine cos its destroying their country, and not Russia cos their economy is suffering and genuinely want to cooperate with Europe especially Germany, not Europe cos its at their door and real risk of destabilising their nations too and if their is a major war geography says it will be fought in Europe more than anywhere else, and sanctions hurt them too. US is the only player who benefits, they have nothing(much less) to lose besides EU as vassals and everything to gain. Its calculated and cynical.

 

[awaremind]

"Having just exited a train in government-controlled Kramatorsk (78km north of Donetsk), an SMM monitor was approached by three men in civilian clothes, two of them wearing balaclavas and holstered weapons. The monitor was handcuffed and hooded before being asked to identify himself. Upon subsequently doing so, he was released with apologies. The men identified themselves as members of the State Security Services of Ukraine (SBU)."
Found this on Osce report for 19/3.
Hmm... Ukrainian Gestapo arrest OSCE monitor, oopsie.
'

 

[Zidane98]

As opposed to the rebels who kidnapped ocse peacekeepers.

 

[Zidane98]

So Russia who is arming and helping the rebels apparently don't want war and the Americans who are refusing to get involved in arming the Ukranians do want war. Hilarious. Such thinking was common place in the USSR and is completely delusional.

 

[awaremind]

If there was no arming of Rebels I think it would just be a slaughter and a mass exodus and Russia is within its rights to prevent that. Its on their border not the US or even the EU's yet. The US has been providing Equiptment and the UAF already had loads of types of weapons the rebels mostly have. They are more short on good leadership and good morale in the regular army. So many of their losses were easily preventable.

 

[Zidane98]

Russia has no right at all to enter the ukraine and has signed a treaty to not undertake such actions. If there was no arming of rebels the war would finish almost immediately with them being unable to sustain their attacks on Ukranian positions without backing from the Russians.

The US has intervened remarkably little considering their obligations under the Budapest agreement. They will eventually back down if Russia continues its unofficial war against Ukraine.

 

[awaremind]

Russia has no right at all to enter the ukraine and has signed a treaty to not undertake such actions. If there was no arming of rebels the war would finish almost immediately with them being unable to sustain their attacks on Ukranian positions without backing from the Russians.

The US has intervened remarkably little considering their obligations under the Budapest agreement. They will eventually back down if Russia continues its unofficial war against Ukraine.

There was a lot of water under the bridge since the
budapest agreement I think the RF disregarded this agreement when the US micro managed the replacement governments leaders (see F the EU leak). and composition before allowing) "their man "Poroshenko( see wikileaks diplomatic cable talking about poroshenko as their man in kiev government past) to become president.

 

[little graham]

Reported the black box found from the Lufthansa crash yesterday, will start giving information in two days. Considering the seriousness of the allegations around mh17, you would have to say the reports are slow.

 

[Zidane98]

Reported the black box found from the Lufthansa crash yesterday, will start giving information in two days. Considering the seriousness of the allegations around mh17, you would have to say the reports are slow.

Yeah nah. That's an accident. Two completely different things. No crime has been committed. Also in this case there are no drunk rebel commanders preventing access to the crash site. Makes a big difference.

 

[little graham]

Yeah nah. That's an accident. Two completely different things. No crime has been committed. Also in this case there are no drunk rebel commanders preventing access to the crash site. Makes a big difference.

You retort is piss weak. Why didn't you mention how Abbott signed an agreement to keep the findings suppressed?