Malaysian Airlines flight MH-17 shot down 295 dead.

[Zidane98]

Since they keep refusing too release the so called evidence against Russia, when can we expect charges against the Ukranian government?

Hahaha so delusional.

 

[awaremind]

That's absolute rubbish and straight out if the Russian propaganda book. The Ukraine military attacked russian / rebel tanks only.

As for attacking civilian targets more bullshit from you again. The OCSE reports state most shelling comes from rebel areas and they are not allowing OSCE monitors into certain areas to monitor build up of rebel weapons.

In contrast the Ukranian government t has given full permission to OSCE monitors for inspecting where they like - including donbass.

Posting russian propaganda does nothing. Let's stick to the facts please.

http://www.osce.org/ukraine-smm/163776?download=true
If you view this breakdown of the most recent violations you can see that there is fire going both ways and despite the latest OSCE report being more critical of DPR/LPR than Kiev there was definately access issues in government controlled areas as well, and only a mine warning inhibiting access in a rebel area reported.
So what you are saying is simply not true, next you'll be saying that Kiev has honoured its side of the minsk agreement when it made none of the political moves whatsoever required to make the ceasefire any more than a pause to regroup at a time they were getting their ass kicked. Ukraine has shown itself to be violent, discriminatory and not even sovereign or democratic. While they may not have shot that plane down, their actions, (which in the recent past include shooting down a passenger plane, and a violent overthrow of government using most likely false flag sniping) justifies a fair bit of skepticism, same as Russia's putting forward several theories.

 

[Zidane98]

Simply not true, next you'll be saying that Kiev has honoured its side of the minsk agreement when it made none of the political moves whatsoever required to make the ceasefire any more than a pause to regroup at a time they were getting their ass kicked. Ukraine has shown itself to be violent, discriminatory and not even sovereign or democratic. While they may not have shot that plane down, their actions, (which in the recent past include shooting down a passenger plane, and a violent overthrow of government using most likely false flag sniping) justifies a fair bit of skepticism, same as Russia's putting forward several theories.

Funny you should mention that. Sibair Flight 1812 was downed 14 years ago. Hardly "recent" history:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siberia_Airlines_Flight_1812

A few differences between this and MH17. Firstly, a Ukrainian S300 missile was fired at a target drone and failed to detonate on impact because another missile destroyed it. It than acquired the Sibair flight and destroyed it. Big difference to someone intentionally downing an aircraft at 33,000 feet with no attempt at identification and under no duress from an enemy.

Secondly, the Russians accepted intel from US sources suggesting the errant missile came from Ukraine. They accepted this of course. Things are a bit different these days it seems.

Thirdly, you simply cannot refrain from posting russian propaganda. I suggest once again you keep all the political nonsense in the actual Ukraine civil war thread.

 

[Zidane98]

Claims coming out someone from inside the russian camp has come forward and claimed the reward on offer for providing information which leads to the prosecution of those responsible for shooting MH17 down:

http://www.ibtimes.com/malaysia-air...lower-gets-47-million-revealing-truth-1973780

Will be interesting to see if there's anything in this. Does coincide with the Russians admitting their SU-25 story was a load of bs. To claim the reward the information provided must be absolutely clear cut one would think. Putin's reaction will be interesting.

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

Now that IS interesting. I wonder what will be revealed? Will we, the public, get to know what happened? Or is this another round of Ro-Sham-Bo between Moscow and Washington? This is from the U.K Telegraph.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...ate-MH17-says-informant-has-come-forward.html

(German Private Detective Josef) Resch claimed someone came forward with information and has been paid some or all of the money.

But he said he cannot reveal what they said under the terms of a non-disclosure agreement.

“Our clients have got the information they wanted to get, so my job is finished,” Mr Resch told Germany’s Capital magazine.

“I expect something will happen very soon. Anyone who pays that kind of money for information does not keep to himself.”

But he later played down expectations, telling Spiegel magazine he was not so sure the information would be released.

“I have a request: that my client makes the information public,” he said. “But I have a fear it will be handled internally.”

Mr Resch claimed he does not know the identity of his client, and all their dealings were through a Swiss middleman.

He has speculated it could be an intelligence agency – or that he could be the “useful fool” in an elaborate cover-up.

It would be nice to get the truth out, but I dunno. It just doesn't sound right, judging by the bolded bit.

 

[awaremind]

They caught the culprit, executed him and the body was buried at sea in a traditional Russian Sea Burial?

 

[Zidane98]

The thing is we all know

Now that IS interesting. I wonder what will be revealed? Will we, the public, get to know what happened? Or is this another round of Ro-Sham-Bo between Moscow and Washington? This is from the U.K Telegraph.



It would be nice to get the truth out, but I dunno. It just doesn't sound right, judging by the bolded bit.

Nobody is left in any doubt to where the missile launcher came from and who was responsible for launching it. The information / evidence here must go further and provided detailed evidence into who was responsible for issuing the fire command and who was responsible for sending the BUK hardware into Ukraine. Those parties are far more responsible than the poor sod who was told "fire" without having any idea what he was firing at and has most likely been liquidated by Russian special forces so he/she cannot blab.

It is a political nightmare about how to come out publicly with this information. Once Putin realises that he can no longer deny Russia's role in MH17 who knows how he may react. He may launch one last blitzkrieg to take East Ukraine for good before the rebels & russia turn into an unsupportable international pariah. The dutch criminal investigation is being released publically in October. I don't think that will change with this latest revelation. The investigators may also want to give the Russians time to come out and admit it themselves which they may well do (and this actually happened with KAL 007) instead of being embarrassed internationally.

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

Nobody is left in any doubt to where the missile launcher came from and who was responsible for launching it. The information / evidence here must go further and provided detailed evidence into who was responsible for issuing the fire command and who was responsible for sending the BUK hardware into Ukraine. Those parties are far more responsible than the poor sod who was told "fire" without having any idea what he was firing at and has most likely been liquidated by Russian special forces so he/she cannot blab.

Lots of conjecture being bandied about. There's STILL plenty of doubt as to where the missile came from and who exactly fired it. Bellingcat's findings don't constitute proof and U.S military intelligence has not shown any proof of direct Russian involvement either. But my opinion is about the same as yours when it comes to the absolute facts of the matter - nobody knows for sure.

I definitely don't believe it was a premeditated attack on a pre-determined civilian aircraft though.

It isn't logical. Killing civilians served no military purpose whatsoever. It degraded both Novorossiya and Russia's image in the international community even further.

 

[Zidane98]

Mate it isn't just the sources you have cited. We've got rebels talking on the phone about shooting down a plane. We've got Strelkov boasting on social media about shooting down an AN-26 and subsequently deleting it when the rebels realised they had downed a civilian aircraft. We've got Russian airlines continuing to use East Ukranian airspace AFTER the shoot down and after EuroControl / Ukraine ATC shut the airspace down completely. Russian airlines are not going to be flying over donbass if there is the slightest hint Ukranian forces were/are shooting down civilian aircraft considering the 2 countries are in a de facto war. The Ukranians had not fired a single missile at aircraft in the war; Russian rebels had already downed numerous aircraft prior to the shoot down including an unarmed IL-76 aircraft as it approached Luhanks airport to land. Everyone knows the missile was fired by the Russians / rebels.


Clearly it wasn't a pre mediated attack. But shooting aircraft out of the sky without even trying to identify them is simply unacceptable. Any idiot could buy themselves a laptop and have a copy of flight radar 24 open which would have told them instantly this was a civilian flight. The rebels were not in a live firefight at the time of the shoot down and transport aircraft do not drop their payloads from 33,000 feet. Whoever pressed shoot would have at least known the aircraft's speed & altitude making the decision simply unjustifiable IMO. It definitely constitutes a warcrime, normal rules of engagement were not followed, no due diligence was shown and those who supplied the weapon are just as responsible as those who fired it. You really can't defend or justify Russia's role in this atrocity. Hopefully Russia never again sends advanced weaponry into neighbouring countries to fight unofficial wars because this is the result.

If the same thing happened in the US the military would warn the aircraft first via radio to turn around and exit US airspace, send fighter aircraft after it if there was no response and then shoot it down if it continued to be unresponsive.

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

Yeah, definitely 'normal' rules of engagement were not followed, as far as I know. I've said it before - if Novorossiyan forces DID shoot down the plane, then they need to come clean about it. If it was Russian or the rump Ukrainian forces, they too need to come clean about it.

Whoever shot it down owes it to the families of those lost aboard MH-17 to at least make an account of themselves.

 

[Zidane98]

Yeah, definitely 'normal' rules of engagement were not followed, as far as I know. I've said it before - if Novorossiyan forces DID shoot down the plane, then they need to come clean about it. If it was Russian or the rump Ukrainian forces, they too need to come clean about it.

Whoever shot it down owes it to the families of those lost aboard MH-17 to at least make an account of themselves.

If this happened over Russian territory they would have come clean about it by now. Because Russian units are involved and firing from Ukraine when they should not be there (and claimed not to be there by Putin) the likelihood of an admission is very low. The likelihood of Russia helping international investigators track down those who commanded and operated the missile system is even lower.

Anyone who gives up information on the actual missile launcher & command structure responsible for the shooting down will not be able live in Russia again and will now need a new identity / witness protection.

 

[awaremind]

If the same thing happened in the US the military would warn the aircraft first via radio to turn around and exit US airspace, send fighter aircraft after it if there was no response and then shoot it down if it continued to be unresponsive.

This statement alone shows you are not worth arguing with, the US army are not the good guys, this isn't Hollywood. This kind of assumption is completely naive. Are you 12 ? Are you an agent? Has thousands of hours of propagandistic television just worked exceptionally well on you ? Occam's razor cannot be applied in cases of "Maskirovka". Warfare is essentially about deception. They only declare themselves responsible for crimes they absolutely cannot deny. Once again I'm not saying it was definately not as portrayed but its certainly not proven yet.

 

[Zidane98]

This statement alone shows you are not worth arguing with, the US army are not the good guys, this isn't Hollywood. This kind of assumption is completely naive. Are you 12 ? Are you an agent? Has thousands of hours of propagandistic television just worked exceptionally well on you ? Occam's razor cannot be applied in cases of "Maskirovka". Warfare is essentially about deception. They only declare themselves responsible for crimes they absolutely cannot deny. Once again I'm not saying it was definately not as portrayed but its certainly not proven yet.

Seriously? Where did I say the us army are "the good guys"? You really do have an unhealthy obsession with all things American.

Can only imagine the wild conspiracy theories you'll come up with when the Russians finally stop their nonsensical denials. I'm sure it will somehow be the fault if the US and their evil Nazi allies.

Pathetic.

 

[not a warmonger]

Seriously? Where did I say the us army are "the good guys"? You really do have an unhealthy obsession with all things American.

Can only imagine the wild conspiracy theories you'll come up with when the Russians finally stop their nonsensical denials. I'm sure it will somehow be the fault if the US and their evil Nazi allies.

Pathetic.

you did. for you the cold war still exists

 

[awaremind]

Seriously? Where did I say the us army are "the good guys"? You really do have an unhealthy obsession with all things American.

Can only imagine the wild conspiracy theories you'll come up with when the Russians finally stop their nonsensical denials. I'm sure it will somehow be the fault if the US and their evil Nazi allies.

Pathetic.

It was definitely implicit in the statement. If Russia admits it, it will be because it has been proven beyond doubt they did it. It hasn't yet. I will still hold the opinion that Kiev bears some responsibility, due to their bloodthirsty actions in the "ATO". As will the USA for their wrecking of Ukraine's constitution, by appointing the interim government after a violent putsch.

 

[Zidane98]

It was definitely implicit in the statement. If Russia admits it, it will be because it has been proven beyond doubt they did it. It hasn't yet. I will still hold the opinion that Kiev bears some responsibility, due to their bloodthirsty actions in the "ATO". As will the USA for their wrecking of Ukraine's constitution, by appointing the interim government after a violent putsch.

Everything I predicted you would say came true pretty much in your post. Gold.

 

[awaremind]

Everything I predicted you would say came true pretty much in your post. Gold.

Minus the wild conspiracy theories. Are you denying the violence of the ATO? Or the violence of the take over, or the influence of the USA in choosing Yats as their man?

 

[not a warmonger]

Minus the wild conspiracy theories. Are you denying the violence of the ATO? Or the violence of the take over, or the influence of the USA in choosing Yats as their man?

Weird. Poroshenko admits that the overthrow of Yanukovych was illegal

Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko appealed to the country’s constitutional court, asking the court to recognize the ousting of former President Viktor Yanukovych in February 2014 as illegitimate. "I ask the court to acknowledge that the law ‘on the removal of the presidential title from Viktor Yanukovych' as unconstitutional," Poroshenko said in a court statement published on the website of the Ukrainian constitutional court. The current Ukrainian president said the law violates the constitution, according to which the President of Ukraine is protected by law and his title remains with him forever. He also added that by enacting the law in February of 2014, the parliament of Ukraine undermined the constitution. As the current head of Ukraine, who became the president after the illegal coup, Poroshenko's statement seems strange at best. By admitting that the overthrow of Yanukovych was illegal and stressing that the President of Ukraine should be forever protected by the country's law, Poroshenko might be insinuating that his own presidency is put in jeopardy. Read more: http://sputniknews.com/politics/20150620/1023639521.html#ixzz3dct6bE9G

 

[Zidane98]

Weird. Poroshenko admits that the overthrow of Yanukovych was illegal

Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko appealed to the country’s constitutional court, asking the court to recognize the ousting of former President Viktor Yanukovych in February 2014 as illegitimate. "I ask the court to acknowledge that the law ‘on the removal of the presidential title from Viktor Yanukovych' as unconstitutional," Poroshenko said in a court statement published on the website of the Ukrainian constitutional court. The current Ukrainian president said the law violates the constitution, according to which the President of Ukraine is protected by law and his title remains with him forever. He also added that by enacting the law in February of 2014, the parliament of Ukraine undermined the constitution. As the current head of Ukraine, who became the president after the illegal coup, Poroshenko's statement seems strange at best. By admitting that the overthrow of Yanukovych was illegal and stressing that the President of Ukraine should be forever protected by the country's law, Poroshenko might be insinuating that his own presidency is put in jeopardy. Read more: http://sputniknews.com/politics/20150620/1023639521.html#ixzz3dct6bE9G

Russian propaganda is totally irrelevant to the shoot down and murder of 298 innocent victims on MH17. Post your nonsense in the civil war thread please.

 

[not a warmonger]

Russian propaganda is totally irrelevant to the shoot down and murder of 298 innocent victims on MH17. Post your nonsense in the civil war thread please.

the rat is preparing his escape from the sinking rotten ship

 

[awaremind]

Russian propaganda is totally irrelevant to the shoot down and murder of 298 innocent victims on MH17. Post your nonsense in the civil war thread please.

If thread integrity is your priority there are many threads that are being far more derailed than this one. Look at the wind farm thread.

 

[awaremind]

the rat is preparing his escape from the sinking rotten ship

I've never seen a more worried looking president. He has good reason though. He is stuck between a rock and a hard place, his western backers want him to sell Ukraine out, ie. get enslaved for generations by debt, his nationalist warriors want a strong, independent, straight, racially pure Ukraine, the pro-russians in south and east want to be autonomous if not to be part of Russia, and the average Ukrainian just wants to live without the insanity and corruption I'm guessing. If the nationalists turn against the government watch out, because the civil war will get soooo much messier.

 

[not a warmonger]

I've never seen a more worried looking president. He has good reason though. He is stuck between a rock and a hard place, his western backers want him to sell Ukraine out, ie. get enslaved for generations by debt, his nationalist warriors want a strong, independent, straight, racially pure Ukraine, the pro-russians in south and east want to be autonomous if not to be part of Russia, and the average Ukrainian just wants to live without the insanity and corruption I'm guessing. If the nationalists turn against the government watch out, because the civil war will get soooo much messier.

yes there's been some signiffant anti govt protests building in keiv, obviusly notbreported in our fair and balanced media, writing is on the wall and thevamericans know it

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

Russian propaganda is totally irrelevant to the shoot down and murder of 298 innocent victims on MH17. Post your nonsense in the civil war thread please.

Why is it murder? 'Murder' as a legal point of fact means a killing as a premeditated act. While a tragic screwup of command & control (at least according to the available circumstantial facts at hand) I doubt there was intent to deliberately blow a civilian airliner out of the sky.

Should there be an accounting? Yes, no matter who was at fault. Should the incident be used for political point-scoring, thus taking a fresh and steaming s**t on the lives of those lost? No, I don't think so.

 

[blackcat]

Why is it murder? 'Murder' as a legal point of fact means a killing as a premeditated act. While a tragic screwup of command & control (at least according to the available circumstantial facts at hand) I doubt there was intent to deliberately blow a civilian airliner out of the sky.

Should there be an accounting? Yes, no matter who was at fault. Should the incident be used for political point-scoring, thus taking a fresh and steaming s**t on the lives of those lost? No, I don't think so.

but they can make a case for a warcrime, whatever the facts. It would be pretty straightforward to bring a case before the hague on this matter, cos it is all political.