Malaysian Airlines flight MH-17 shot down 295 dead.

[slicedndiced]

If reasonable attempts to limit civilian casualities were not taken sure.

Define "reasonable attempts" though.

Anyway, we are both arguing semantics here. No doubt that it was a horrific incident/accident.

IMO, Terrorism has a certain degree of planning and an intention to cause fear to a specific "enemy".

Edit: Gough beat me to it.

 

[Max zero]

Define "reasonable attempts" though.

Anyway, we are both arguing semantics here. No doubt that it was a horrific incident/accident.

IMO, Terrorism has a certain degree of planning and an intention to cause fear to a specific "enemy".

Edit: Gough beat me to it.

I agree its sematics. I mean were are basically arguing the difference between a war crime and terrorism. No real winners there. I actually did find the description of 'terrorism' a bit jarring when I heard it on the news. Which caused me to think about how it could fit the definition of terrorism.

My argument is if there is so little control that ANYONE could be a target then it could be a form of terrorism.

 

[QuietB]

In that case, we should broaden the interpretation of the term and include all civilian collateral damage in every conflict globally.

That might make the US and Israel a little uncomfortable though.

Isn't the definition of terrorism "an act of war perpetrated by someone the west doesn't like"?

I have never looked the word up but that is my interpretation based on how the word is used

 

[Herne Hill Hammer]

What hope did we have when we had Colin Sylvia infiltrate as a suicide bomber?

lmao, good work.

 

[Zidane98]

For those who are comparing this with what's going on in Gaza at the moment they are two completely different situations. Israel are returning fire against Hamas lead attacks and invariably civilian casualties occur in war zones on both sides.

The Russian backed rebels weren't under attack by anyone and it seems that they apparently made no attempt to communicate with the aircraft and warn that it would be shot down, they have absolutely zero justification for firing a missile over a country they are invading illegally.

 

[QuietB]

For those who are comparing this with what's going on in Gaza at the moment they are two completely different situations. Israel are returning fire against Hamas lead attacks and invariably civilian casualties occur in war zones on both sides.

The Russian backed rebels weren't under attack by anyone and it seems that they apparently made no attempt to communicate with the aircraft and warn that it would be shot down, they have absolutely zero justification for firing a missile over a country they are invading illegally.

They are not rally invading given they are Ukraine nationals (presumably) but I agree with the sentiment.

Abbott's performance in this is fascinating me. I am not an Abbott fan at all, but his performance is pretty amazing. Initially I thought he was taking instructions from somewhere, but I am not so sure now. He is certainly at the forefront of international condemnation.

The Russians are easy to hate and I assume they are not much of a trading partner for Australia so maybe they are an easy target. Alternatively, maybe Abbott is genuinely showing leadership.

This is potentially massive though. Putin has put himself in a very deep corner. The danger is not what the west will do. The danger is how will Putin react. History is littered with raving lunatics just waiting for an invitation.

 

[carnthemlions]

The CIA stirred this conflict up in the first place.

Did they now?

For those who are comparing this with what's going on in Gaza at the moment they are two completely different situations. Israel are returning fire against Hamas lead attacks and invariably civilian casualties occur in war zones on both sides.

The Russian backed rebels weren't under attack by anyone and it seems that they apparently made no attempt to communicate with the aircraft and warn that it would be shot down, they have absolutely zero justification for firing a missile over a country they are invading illegally.

You're more than a bit wrong in both cases.

 

[romeoh]

Wouldn't be the first time an action had unintended consequences.

If your goal to the blow planes out of the sky while not being able to identify between different planes (and not seeming to care) bad things might happen.

If you try to blow up a military target in a civilian area yet don't take any effort to try and minimise civilian casualties I could see how that could be considered terrorism.

Would have thought the Russians had nothing to gain and everything to lose from such a deliberate action. They might have been foolish enough to make a terrible mistake, but not stupid enough to deliberately target a civilian plane.

 

[Max zero]

Would have thought the Russians had nothing to gain and everything to lose from such a deliberate action. They might have been foolish enough to make a terrible mistake, but not stupid enough to deliberately target a civilian plane.

Not talking about Russia talking about the Rebels. Russians may well of given them the equipment and training but I not the targets.

 

[romeoh]

Not talking about Russia talking about the Rebels. Russians may well of given them the equipment and training but I not the targets.

Yep but the principle remains the same.

 

[midorigreenwood]

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory/us-outlines-case-russia-downed-plane-24640689

The yanks have put the ukranian evidence through their magical evidence authenticating machines and deem them top notch so thats good enough for me.

 

[CLUBMEDhurst]

Anyone else want to puke after watching Abbott and Shorten in parliament about this?

Had to resort to jackin' up stemetil all weekend. Disgraceful

 

[romeoh]

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory/us-outlines-case-russia-downed-plane-24640689

The yanks have put the ukranian evidence through their magical evidence authenticating machines and deem them top notch so thats good enough for me.

Are you pulling our leg?

 

[slicedndiced]

Interesting interview with some American academic based at RMIT just on ABC24.

He spoke plainly and forthrightly.

*paraphrase*

Putin isn't going to a damn thing about this, because he knows he doesn't have to.

Obama has so much on his plate right now with Israel v Palestine, Syria, Libya, negotiations with Iran just being extended etc, and Putin knows Obama needs him on these issues.

The European leaders won't say/do a thing of substance about it because Obama won't.

We will have an investigation which won't prove anything more than we already know, (the jet was shot down by a missile), and it is only paying respect to the dead families because our culture of respecting the dead demands it

*/paraphrase*

edit: dudes name was Joe Siracusa.

 

[Stucky]

Many people seem to be happy with how Tony Abbott has handle this and how he has come out strong. But its been 4 days since the crash and the rebels are still in control of the site. They have taken bodies and the black box, destroyed evidence. He talked with Putin last night, it should of been one of the first things he did. Any chance he can make some serious calls to take over the site from the rebels.

 

[slicedndiced]

Many people seem to be happy with how Tony Abbott has handle this and how he has come out strong. But its been 4 days since the crash and the rebels are still in control of the site. They have taken bodies and the black box, destroyed evidence. He talked with Putin last night, it should of been one of the first things he did. Any chance he can make some serious calls to take over the site from the rebels.

Just how much influence do you think Abbott has internationally?

The fact that Putin held off talking to him for 4 days should tell you how much weight he places on Australian opinion.

We are a pissant nation.

 

[QuietB]

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory/us-outlines-case-russia-downed-plane-24640689

The yanks have put the ukranian evidence through their magical evidence authenticating machines and deem them top notch so thats good enough for me.

Is this the international equivalent of Christie Malthouse giving Mick the all clear

 

[QuietB]

Many people seem to be happy with how Tony Abbott has handle this and how he has come out strong. But its been 4 days since the crash and the rebels are still in control of the site. They have taken bodies and the black box, destroyed evidence. He talked with Putin last night, it should of been one of the first things he did. Any chance he can make some serious calls to take over the site from the rebels.

The only way anyone is taking over the site from the rebels is a boots on the ground land assault which is not happening (hopefully).

Abbott had not talked to Putin because Putin would not talk to him. There is not a lot Abbott can do except public statements. Australia cannot touch Russia in any way. We basically have no trade with them, no joint interests, we might as well not even have relations with them at all. I am not sure there are two more disparate and geographically separate nations in the world.

 

[Stucky]

Just how much influence do you think Abbott has internationally?

The fact that Putin held off talking to him for 4 days should tell you how much weight he places on Australian opinion.

We are a pissant nation.

We're not the only country affected by this. Its not like the rebels or Russia are in the right for shooting down a civilian plane. Get together take the crash site and let Putin make the next move.

 

[slicedndiced]

So, it seems that Abbott is about to declare this incident a "Terrorist Act".

I understand the reasoning behind this is so that victims families can be compensated, and these funds can only be accessed if such a declaration is made by the government.

But really??

Surely there is another way? I would wager that this will make us the first, and possibly the only, country to FORMALLY declare it as terrorism.

We're not the only country affected by this. Its not like the rebels or Russia are in the right for shooting down a civilian plane. Get together take the crash site and let Putin make the next move.

I see. Just like that, huh?

Are you 12?

 

[awaremind]

Somewhere over a rainbow we wish for a land where wealth was spread towards those who worked hard for just rewards for their effort and were appreciated for acts of kindness towards people who were weak and unprotected as well as for being brave and noble in standing up for what they believe in. The people of Luhansk and Donetsk are every bit as important as those of the UK, Holland, Australia and Malaysia. Why is it that we have a predisposition towards valuing one human life above another? The world will never be at peace if we are constantly reacting to the last violent act committed by our adversary. The latest development in the disasterous east/west Ukraine conflict is the shooting down of mh-17 in which 298 innocent civilians died is unexpected, shocking and confronting for the rest of the world that wanted to look away from a conflict that seemed peripheral to the devastation that is occurring in Iraq and Gaza. Now we can not look away, and we are compelled to really investigate what is happening in the Ukraine



Whether the flight was shot down by the separatist rebels or the nationalist Ukrainian government the statement remains true- if the area was at peace – this would not have happened. At every point of this conflict the Russian governments position has been that dialogue is the onl y way out of this situation, whereas the Ukrainian interim government has been absolutely on the offensive in both their propaganda and on the ground.Over 500 civilians at latest count have died int the Ukrainian governments ATO (Anti-Terrorist Operation) Including 80 x children . This is an unacceptable loss of civilian life. Whether passengers on an international flight of villagers or middle class citezensof Donetsk republic we don’t deserve to die for political point scoring.



Every since the failed US invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan the younger generations have woken up to the lies of western mainsteam media and its unhesitant backing of whatsoever the conservative governments of the day deem fit to be the party line.In Australia the mainstream medias backing of the liberal party has been shameless, bringing down state and federal governments alike with neverending bullshit, distracting from the real business of governing effectively and in the best interest of the nation. The Australian public wants more from its mediocre politicians.

In every major development such as the mh -17 plane disaster we mut ask- Que Bono? – Who gains? And the obvious answer is – whoever is not found to be responsible. The Russian government may be – for supporting the rebels, or the Ukrainian government maybe for pursuing such a violent campaign in Eastern Ukraine, or the Eu and the USA for supporting the bloody minded Kiev Government. Or the separatist rebel fighters for fighting a war that the eastern Ukrainians don’t really want, and making a BIG mistake if that’s what happened. And if that what is what happened it really is a tragedy because the the people of the affected regions will bear the consequences, unless the conflict changes course drastically.

 

[Zidane98]

So Ukraine is to blame because they are fighting against a Russian backed insurgency?

How dare they defend their own territory! ! And of course the Russian backed rebels were within their right to shoot down at random any plane in East Ukranian airspace.

How ridiculous and it is extremely disturbing to hear anyone trying to blame it on Ukraine. Their only failing was not being aware that gun toting vodka drinking rebels had moved a SAM into place in the 24 hrs preceding mh 17 ' s demise and not closing the airspace. Pretty difficult for them to get intelligence from that region.

 

[Norwood1878]

So Ukraine is to blame because they are fighting against a Russian backed insurgency?

How dare they defend their own territory! ! And of course the Russian backed rebels were within their right to shoot down at random any plane in East Ukranian airspace.

How ridiculous and it is extremely disturbing to hear anyone trying to blame it on Ukraine. Their only failing was not being aware that gun toting vodka drinking rebels had moved a SAM into place in the 24 hrs preceding mh 17 ' s demise and not closing the airspace. Pretty difficult for them to get intelligence from that region.

You mean the EU puppet installed gov? Removal of a democratically elected leader?

 

[awaremind]

So Ukraine is to blame because they are fighting against a Russian backed insurgency?

How dare they defend their own territory! ! And of course the Russian backed rebels were within their right to shoot down at random any plane in East Ukranian airspace.

How ridiculous and it is extremely disturbing to hear anyone trying to blame it on Ukraine. Their only failing was not being aware that gun toting vodka drinking rebels had moved a SAM into place in the 24 hrs preceding mh 17 ' s demise and not closing the airspace. Pretty difficult for them to get intelligence from that region.

This whole conflict is very, very ugly. Ukraine planes and mortars have bombed indiscrimantly in a way like Israel, and the rebels have been shooting them down for about a month. The children dying in the conflict are the relatives of Russians in the same way we have now been touched by the deaths of 36 Australians. 1 of us equals ummm... at least 100 of them. Thats why for kidnap of 3 Israelis Hundreds or thousands must die.
For 3000 in 9/11 around a million civilans had to die. etc etc.

 

[awaremind]

What is rubbish is the way we are supposed to look away as we murder children but when THEY did it we must look 100 times.