Mega Thread The Western Bulldogs - The Sack Macca saga

[paulveed]

Look I don't think I can take reading much more of the bollocks on this thread. Think I shall move to 'Ignore Mode'.

Personally I freely admit I was a bit disappointed at BMac's. selection at the time.
Since then there have been decisions and personal performances that have impressed me.
By the same token there have been decisions [ EG Match Committee selections etc] that have confused, bemused and frustrated me.

Personally I fall somewhere in the zones of undecided, to willing to give the benefit of the doubt, and wait a bit and see on BMac,
though I must admit to having severe doubts about some of his support staff. Some of this is probably reflected in my concerns
at MC decisions.

I see things I like in drafting/trading/player development, along with things that confuse/annoy and frustrate me.

I too can struggle occasionally with where the team is at.

For just how good BMac is at public speaking [ and he has received plenty of praise from both within and outside the Club],
I find it a bit hard to understand why we seem to be so poor with keeping our own supporter base clearly informed. I know the volume
of communiques from the Club has grown, unfortunately the level or quality of the information has been left way behind the volume.
I would much rather know why 'Rat' is not playing, and how Pruden is progressing, and what kind of rehab injured players are doing,
than how many marshmellows Williams can stuff in his mouth.
I don't buy the argument that you don't want your opponents to know about player injuries. Any opponent worth half their salt would
have no difficulties in obtaining any information they needed or wanted on our squad without having to reference social media to find it.
So for mine that is a non excuse.

An area that is not being given enough credence in this long drawn out argument is surely player responsibility.
Any coach can provide instruction, and direction on what he wants done out on the field, but if the players cannot, or do not produce,
then what can any coach do.
Don't play the guilty players some will say. Has that already happened you would then have to equally query. There have been plenty of
examples that you could well put down to just that [ without knowing]. If the coach is doing this however it would be unhelpful, and unwise
to put that information in the public domain, and thereby humiliate his players....a sure way to lose the playing group.

I don't know how much of the skill errors the players have been making can really be sheeted down to the coach though. Yeah he is reputed
to be a "teaching coach", but gee by the time players reach this level, their basic skills should be at an elite, or close to level already.
A hell of a lot of our on field failures over recent times can be fairly and justifiably sheeted back to basic onfield skill errors by the
players themselves.

As I said, I remain on the fence re our current coaching panel, but am happy to give them a while longer to show real progress, and I do
feel our recruiting in the seriously compromised environment of recent years has been pretty good, as we have some really promising kids
coming through, which should be a positive + for BMac and Co.

 

[Mattdougie]

Think the ignore button needsto be called the "I disagree with you and I'm not gonna listen anymore button"

Mental Ages 12 thru 16 love it

 

[Mattdougie]

Ok seriously I ask a question that I really want an answer to what people really think.

Regardless of draft concessions and recruiting and etc don't people think we should be further along in development than we actually are?

Maccas own words at his strengths for the team are contested ball and defense and we are worse in both respects this year??

So the 2 pillars he builds his plan on at going backwards so please explain to me(no smarta$$) where we are going??

We are at best 2 more years away from even competing for finals and I simply think that is too long

 

[grassman75]

simple answer Mattdougie I think we are heading along the right path. At this point for me Macca is the man. Yes he has his faults and makes mistakes, we all do. it is when we don't learn from them that we need to be concerned (and yes there were some on the weekend that have been recurring) It has been said before, but I think we underestimate just how bad the list was when Macca took over. There was some absolute poop in there and there still is. It is going to take time. Yes it is taking some players longer than others time to develop and perhaps they shouldn't be on the list. You cant really say regardless of recruiting and concessions because they are a big part of why it is taking as long as it is. We all know that we lost 2 good young players and that hurt too. You can say and do anything with stats but (not inc. yesterday) from our last 18 games we were 9 wind / 9 losses. That is improvement in my book. Once we get 50 games into some of these boys that have played 1 to 12 games we will see a rapid rate of improvement. If we don't then questions will need to be asked

 

[Mattdougie]

simple answer Mattdougie I think we are heading along the right path. At this point for me Macca is the man. Yes he has his faults and makes mistakes, we all do. it is when we don't learn from them that we need to be concerned (and yes there were some on the weekend that have been recurring) It has been said before, but I think we underestimate just how bad the list was when Macca took over. There was some absolute poop in there and there still is. It is going to take time. Yes it is taking some players longer than others time to develop and perhaps they shouldn't be on the list. You cant really say regardless of recruiting and concessions because they are a big part of why it is taking as long as it is. We all know that we lost 2 good young players and that hurt too. You can say and do anything with stats but (not inc. yesterday) from our last 18 games we were 9 wind / 9 losses. That is improvement in my book. Once we get 50 games into some of these boys that have played 1 to 12 games we will see a rapid rate of improvement. If we don't then questions will need to be asked

How can we accept their still being poop in out list in his third year??

Can ANYONE explain to me how Howard is still on our list??

And I understand the 50-100 game mark for improvement but I personally think you could get 400 games into several of the players on out lost and they arnt gonna cut it.

The year Macca took over we still had 14 prelim players on out list so I also do not accept that people day out list was so bad. I agree it had no middle but it wasn't horrible and IMO is the second or third worst list in the AFL today.

Unfortunately I hear excuses upon excuses and that is the problem with out club! The good clubs don't accept excuses they act.

 

[TMoney22]

2011 we finished 10th after a very nice run at a flag. I think we are expecting too much too early, its just not that easy. This year I very much expect to win some upsets and lose a few that we should win.

Another 2 years til competing finals would be par.

Can you imagine being Richmond or North. no thank you.

 

[Mattdougie]

2011 we finished 10th after a very nice run at a flag. I think we are expecting too much too early, its just not that easy. This year I very much expect to win some upsets and lose a few that we should win.

Another 2 years til competing finals would be par.

Can you imagine being Richmond or North. no thank you.

So you saying that 2017 we will make final? Which I disagree with to be honest

And that's acceptable a 7 year turn around??

No decent team in the world would accept this and that is my point.

This coaching staff have laid excuse after excuse on the path before then so that when we perform as we did yesterday they can point to that and say "look where we started" " development" "blah blah"

 

[GetDimmaBack]

So you saying that 2017 we will make final? Which I disagree with to be honest

And that's acceptable a 7 year turn around??

No decent team in the world would accept this and that is my point.

This coaching staff have laid excuse after excuse on the path before then so that when we perform as we did yesterday they can point to that and say "look where we started" " development" "blah blah"

I think you seriously underestimate the time it takes for players to reach their peak.

The majority of Cats supporters were keen to have Bomber Thompson sacked after 7 years (2006?) with what appeared to be little to show in terms of development. Come 2007, the Dogs smash them in round one! By round 5 or 6, they beat Richmond by 150 points and go on to win the premiership, and then two more. Took them forever to get there, didn't it? But look at what they've done since. A dynasty has emerged from that long, long development.

It seems to me that the media has done a job on supporters, too. If a side loses two or three in a row, all hell breaks loose in the media, and then happily supporters jump on the "whinge wagon". People cast judgement on first gamers, including players in their first game at a new club. Everyone wants success in a week or two. Unfortunately, media hype or not, players are only human. They can't flick a switch and become champions in an instant. Not in football nor in any other sport.

Let's take Will Minson as an example: three years ago, he was still playing at Williamstown. Now he's an AA ruckman. He took about 10 years to become a top end player.

Football's a tough game, as anyone who's played it knows. Kids take time, many of them take years to mature physically, and yes, some don't make it. But no-one, and I mean no-one, can work the miracles that many supporters want. That's because many supporters have never played the game at elite level, nor have they had coaching experience. Few have any understanding of the nature of player development.

Reality is that the biggest problem in football today is impatience. By far. Most of us are guilty of it, more now than ever in the history of the game.

 

[grassman75]

How can we accept their still being poop in out list in his third year??

Can ANYONE explain to me how Howard is still on our list??

And I understand the 50-100 game mark for improvement but I personally think you could get 400 games into several of the players on out lost and they arnt gonna cut it.

The year Macca took over we still had 14 prelim players on out list so I also do not accept that people day out list was so bad. I agree it had no middle but it wasn't horrible and IMO is the second or third worst list in the AFL today.

Unfortunately I hear excuses upon excuses and that is the problem with out club! The good clubs don't accept excuses they act.

I didn't name names in my post but yes I would say Howard is one that is kissed on the proverbial. From the limited amount of times I have seen Cordy, I'm not sold on him either but you have to give big guys time...how much..i don't know
There is still poop in his third year because the AFL in their wisdom had 2 expansion teams and gave them excessive concessions. I am not a list manager by a long way but I do know that you can't just cull a list to the bone because, even in a good year, there just isn't enough talent in the pool to fill a team. If you do cut all your experience, you end up like Melbourne. You think we have had a long turn around when it comes to finals and they have had several no.1 picks. I still believe we will cull several at seasons end and at that point I will be happy to say that the list belongs to Macca and he is now responsible for it and no excuses for what is on it.

 

[Mattdougie]

I think you seriously underestimate the time it takes for players to reach their peak.

The majority of Cats supporters were keen to have Bomber Thompson sacked after 7 years (2006?) with what appeared to be little to show in terms of development. Come 2007, the Dogs smash them in round one! By round 5 or 6, they beat Richmond by 150 points and go on to win the premiership, and then two more. Took them forever to get there, didn't it? But look at what they've done since. A dynasty has emerged from that long, long development.

It seems to me that the media has done a job on supporters, too. If a side loses two or three in a row, all hell breaks loose in the media, and then happily supporters jump on the "whinge wagon". People cast judgement on first gamers, including players in their first game at a new club. Everyone wants success in a week or two. Unfortunately, media hype or not, players are only human. They can't flick a switch and become champions in an instant. Not in football nor in any other sport.

Let's take Will Minson as an example: three years ago, he was still playing at Williamstown. Now he's an AA ruckman. He took about 10 years to become a top end player.

Football's a tough game, as anyone who's played it knows. Kids take time, many of them take years to mature physically, and yes, some don't make it. But no-one, and I mean no-one, can work the miracles that many supporters want. That's because many supporters have never played the game at elite level, nor have they had coaching experience.

Reality is that the biggest problem in football today is impatience. By far. Most of us are guilty of it, more now than ever in the history of the game.

Sorry mate it doesn't take all kids years to develop only ours it seems.

And are they dele coping?? Are Wallis, Tutt, Howard, JJ, Wood, Cordy any better than the day Macca started??

Granted there at many on the improve but for a coach that is supposed to be fantastic at developing young kids why are the a live not going anywhere??

Minos development was hindered by the fact he was always number 2 and when he was left alone he excelled but I don't think many expected him to be that good.

Reality is all we can work from and as I've said I think we are at least another 3-4 years from finals and that is far too long under ANY coach.

We can't afford to be rubbish for that long

 

[Mattdougie]

I didn't name names in my post but yes I would say Howard is one that is kissed on the proverbial. From the limited amount of times I have seen Cordy, I'm not sold on him either but you have to give big guys time...how much..i don't know
There is still poop in his third year because the AFL in their wisdom had 2 expansion teams and gave them excessive concessions. I am not a list manager by a long way but I do know that you can't just cull a list to the bone because, even in a good year, there just isn't enough talent in the pool to fill a team. If you do cut all your experience, you end up like Melbourne. You think we have had a long turn around when it comes to finals and they have had several no.1 picks. I still believe we will cull several at seasons end and at that point I will be happy to say that the list belongs to Macca and he is now responsible for it and no excuses for what is on it.

I understand you can't cut as many as you wish but we could have done more. When your down at the bottom be brutal and expedite improvement.

I actually think Cordy has been exceptionally badly coached, brought in for a week here and there and then first to fall when we lose. How can a kid gets confidence knowing he gonna be cut if we lose.

Granted kids take time so give him time. I'd much rather play Cordy than Jong coz we are crying out for height and Jong is just another mid on the list of average players.

 

[grassman75]

I was a wood critic but I think he has shown massive improvement this year. He has had injury troubles in previous seasons and he has had to punch above his weight in the first couple of games. He has only just played 50 ish games too I believe
Wallis has had a slow start. maybe stagnated a little this year but he was putting out better numbers than Mitchell at the same age last year. Not concerned yet
JJ was good in the back end of last year but copped that horrific bump. Wouldn't blame him for being a little off as he finds his feet again
Howard and Cordy I have already mentioned

It might seem like it, but most kids take time - Cotchin for example took at least 3 years. Guys like Wines and Macrae are exceptions to the rule and fortunately we are lucky to have one of them.

 

[grassman75]

I see your point mate but I just don't think we could be that brutal with the list purely due to the expansion teams and a couple of shallow drafts. In some cases it may have been better the devil you know....I'm just guessing that is what the recruiters thought

 

[Mattdougie]

I was a wood critic but I think he has shown massive improvement this year. He has had injury troubles in previous seasons and he has had to punch above his weight in the first couple of games. He has only just played 50 ish games too I believe
Wallis has had a slow start. maybe stagnated a little this year but he was putting out better numbers than Mitchell at the same age last year. Not concerned yet
JJ was good in the back end of last year but copped that horrific bump. Wouldn't blame him for being a little off as he finds his feet again
Howard and Cordy I have already mentioned

It might seem like it, but most kids take time - Cotchin for example took at least 3 years. Guys like Wines and Macrae are exceptions to the rule and fortunately we are lucky to have one of them.

Please don't take this the wrong way but all is see is excuses for performance

JJ took a knock
Wood injured
Wallis and so on

And that's what we get from the club, excuses

The fact is these kids regardless of reason are not where they should be in modern football. Do geelongs kids take 5 years to develop? Why did ports come out of no where with a new coach??

I think we all sit here and listen to the party line "it takes time" and yes it does but we are probably going to Finish bottom four again this year with less wins or the same as last year with an easier draw

WHEN DO WE STOP MAKING EXCUSES AND DEMAND ACTIONS?? Our " little" club accepts this and that's why we can't grow IMO.

If we were hawthorn, essendon or collingwood the screaming for action would be deafening and THAT IS A FACT

 

[Toastman]

So you saying that 2017 we will make final? Which I disagree with to be honest

And that's acceptable a 7 year turn around??

No decent team in the world would accept this and that is my point.

This coaching staff have laid excuse after excuse on the path before then so that when we perform as we did yesterday they can point to that and say "look where we started" " development" "blah blah"

The 7 year turn around is on Eade's poor recruitment and development record. I guess by your logic if a team this year had Lockett, Dunstall, Ablett Snr, Grant and a bunch of other 50 year old former greats you'd expect a coach to be able to get the team to the finals this year. We pushed too long and the list at the end of Eade's run was over the hill with no depth in the youth. Then we ran in to the compromised drafts.
Whether you accept it or not, this was always going to be a difficult rebuild. Whether Macca is the right guy is yet to be seen but the arguments you are putting up for him being a bad coach based upon not bringing a team of kids rapidly up through the competition do not make sense.

 

[Mattdougie]

I see your point mate but I just don't think we could be that brutal with the list purely due to the expansion teams and a couple of shallow drafts. In some cases it may have been better the devil you know....I'm just guessing that is what the recruiters thought

Personally I think the recruiters have to go at years end.

They have under performed and left massive holes in out list.

We have needed forwards for years and got none!!

You simply just can't take the best available these days.

People will disagree and say something like they are recruiting bigger runners but that is negated by the amount of tiny blokes they have also picked up.

But we chase fuller and Lower and Dickson to fill holes that we didn't have and still no one says WHY!?????

 

[Mattdougie]

The 7 year turn around is on Eade's poor recruitment and development record. I guess by your logic if a team this year had Lockett, Dunstall, Ablett Snr, Grant and a bunch of other 50 year old former greats you'd expect a coach to be able to get the team to the finals this year. We pushed too long and the list at the end of Eade's run was over the hill with no depth in the youth. Then we ran in to the compromised drafts.
Whether you accept it or not, this was always going to be a difficult rebuild. Whether Macca is the right guy is yet to be seen but the arguments you are putting up for him being a bad coach based upon not bringing a team of kids rapidly up through the competition do not make sense.

So NOW we blame EADE??

Another excuse sorry mate

And I've never said he is a bad coach coz he hasn't developed a team of kids into a winning unit

And are we a team of kids??? Hmmmm I'm not so sure we have.

We had 15 blokes play yesterday that I don't consider kids.

Geelong have about the same playing today

 

[Toastman]

Do geelongs kids take 5 years to develop?

This is because when they come out they are competing against the third or lower ranked person on the opposition for their position because the best two have the senior Geelong players to cover, our kids are coming in and are taking on the best the opposition have straight off the bat which makes them look much worse.

But we chase fuller and Lower and Dickson to fill holes that we didn't have and still no one says WHY!?????

In the Dickson case we had a massive hole in the forward line and we got him virtually for free knowing that he would get more goals that Hooper or Skinner straight out of the blocks. The others were not chased and it's not clear who would have been the better alternative where we got them.

 

[Mattdougie]

This is because when they come out they are competing against the third or lower ranked person on the opposition for their position because the best two have the senior Geelong players to cover, our kids are coming in and are taking on the best the opposition have straight off the bat which makes them look much worse.



In the Dickson case we had a massive hole in the forward line and we got him virtually for free knowing that he would get more goals that Hooper or Skinner straight out of the blocks. The others were not chased and it's not clear who would have been the better alternative where we got them.

Higgins Dalhaus Gia all can play Dicksons spot and all are better.

Lower was brought in to be a tagger when we already had Picken and Maaca attempting to make Wallis a tagger.

Fuller is an underheight SLOW backline player that we already have Goodes JJ Wood Young Darley Howard Murphy Hoggins and I'm sure I'm forgetting others to play that role.

Simply bad recruiting with very little clear message

Personally it seems we are just taking what we can get and attempting to fit them into a football team.

 

[GetDimmaBack]

Sorry mate it doesn't take all kids years to develop only ours it seems.

And are they dele coping?? Are Wallis, Tutt, Howard, JJ, Wood, Cordy any better than the day Macca started??

Granted there at many on the improve but for a coach that is supposed to be fantastic at developing young kids why are the a live not going anywhere??

Minos development was hindered by the fact he was always number 2 and when he was left alone he excelled but I don't think many expected him to be that good.

Reality is all we can work from and as I've said I think we are at least another 3-4 years from finals and that is far too long under ANY coach.

We can't afford to be rubbish for that long

Tell that to Melbourne and Port Adelaide! Also, how long did it take Freo to develop a good side? Brisbane were "rubbish", as you'd say, for years before they won the 2001 flag. St Kilda were the bottom side when they drafted Riewoldt & Kosi, and made the GF in 2009, Carlton have had a few #1 draft picks and are still pretty ordinary. Would you say Carlton have a good coach? Hawthorn were a laughing stock when Clarkson took over. A few years later, they win a flag. How long have Essendon been an ordinary side? They've only come good in the last couple of years (I'm ignoring the drug issue here).

Sorry mate, take the blinkers off and check the reality you're talking about. At the moment, you're in supporters Disneyland. Where everything's supposed to happen magically. It's not just the Dogs. It's all sides undergoing a rebuild. We happen to be going through it at a time when Gold Coast and GWS have received lots of first round draft picks. Would we possibly be a better side if we had some of these picks? Would we be a better side with Harbrow and Ward still playing with us?

The reality you're looking for is bordering on the miraculous. It's certainly in the delusional zone.

Development is not an easy process for any coach - even those who are good at it.

 

[TMoney22]

So you saying that 2017 we will make final? Which I disagree with to be honest

And that's acceptable a 7 year turn around??

No decent team in the world would accept this and that is my point.

This coaching staff have laid excuse after excuse on the path before then so that when we perform as we did yesterday they can point to that and say "look where we started" " development" "blah blah"

I get ya. We should expect more and aim high. But it just hardly happens in reality. 6 to 7 years for a full rebuild (from top 4, down, back to top 4) I think Is very reasonable. Remember cutting a list is fine, but that means your bringing in players who don't even get drafted by any club or drafted down at pick 60 etc. Odds are they will be just as crap.

And unfortunately we never had much to trade, Geelong were very lucky, just losing Ablett saved them from a full rebuild. Plus kids look a lot better when gun veterans are still playing. Imagine Geelong without Enright, Bartel, Johnson, Kelly etc, Leaving Selwood alone just like us with Griff.

Malthouse said you need 8 A grade players. To get them you need to hit the draft hard. To hit the draft hard you need to trade out gun players or be down the bottom to get some good picks.

However I do think at some stage we will need to make a tough trade to get some good needs players in. And i'm talking about moving one of our young midfielders... will be interesting

 

[Mattdougie]

Tell that to Melbourne and Port Adelaide! Also, how long did it take Freo to develop a good side? Brisbane were "rubbish", as you'd say, for years before they won the 2001 flag. St Kilda were the bottom side when they drafted Riewoldt & Kosi, and made the GF in 2009, Carlton have had a few #1 draft picks and are still pretty ordinary. Would you say Carlton have a good coach? Hawthorn were a laughing stock when Clarkson took over. A few years later, they win a flag. How long have Essendon been an ordinary side? They've only come good in the last couple of years (I'm ignoring the drug issue here).

Sorry mate, take the blinkers off and check the reality you're talking about. At the moment, you're in supporters Disneyland. Where everything's supposed to happen magically. It's not just the Dogs. It's all sides undergoing a rebuild. We happen to be going through it at a time when Gold Coast and GWS have received lots of first round draft picks. Would we possibly be a better side if we had some of these picks? Would we be a better side with Harbrow and Ward still playing with us?

The reality you're looking for is bordering on the miraculous. It's certainly in the delusional zone.

Development is not an easy process for any coach - even those who are good at it.

Do you even bother to read what I wrote???

I don't care if we win 0 games this year as long as we see the kids coming thru and do you think they are?

We had 17 blokes play yesterday that I don't consider kids so YES I expect better from them.

WE ARE NOT A YOUNG TEAM WE HAVE A YOUNG LIST. There is a difference

I don't want finals!
I don't want wins!
I want to see the kids improve every year even if it's a tiny bit and some are but many others are not

 

[100action]

Malthouse said you need 8 A grade players. To get them you need to hit the draft hard. To hit the draft hard you need to trade out gun players or be down the bottom to get some good picks.

Malthouse is a dumb campaigner, Collingwood and Sydney certainly didnt have 8 A grade players when they won premierships. A lenient judge of "A grade" would be one of top 50 players in the comp.

Sydney: Goodes, Hall, ROK, Kirk....
Collingwood: Pendlebury, Swan, Reid, Thomas, Sidebottom, Cloke....

8 A grade players = geelong like dynasty.

 

[SuperMacPherson]

Ok seriously I ask a question that I really want an answer to what people really think.

Regardless of draft concessions and recruiting and etc don't people think we should be further along in development than we actually are?

Maccas own words at his strengths for the team are contested ball and defense and we are worse in both respects this year??

So the 2 pillars he builds his plan on at going backwards so please explain to me(no smarta$$) where we are going??

We are at best 2 more years away from even competing for finals and I simply think that is too long

Good points Matt, I totally agree

 

[gimp!]

How can we accept their still being poop in out list in his third year??

What do you mean, why 'their still being poop in out list'? Probably because he was knee deep in 'poop', getting rid of quality Eade selections including Barlow, Stack, Schofield, Moles, Reid, Mulligan, Skinner, Djekkura, Sherman, Hooper, Markovic and Veszpremi. That's 30 percent of a list, guy.