Michael Voss vs. Luke Hodge

Who is the better player and captain?


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Hodge & Voss are bona fide guns, champs & multi premiership winning captains....Judd, on the other hand, had 6 supreme years at West Coast, before taking his retirement fund at Carlton...Whom he left in ruin & led to another wooden spoon....And all for a cheap 2nd brownlow....

Wow, What a legacy.

Hodge/Voss....Superstar club captains & team men

Judd....Me, moi. meeeee....Over-rated down-hill skiing narcissist with a single premiership....Does not belong in this conversation.
No offence but the bolted part is just ridiculous. "Down hill skiing narcissist". When posters fall into abuse to denigrate one of the great players of the era they bankrupt their argument
 
Everyone already knows that Hird moved himself around as he saw fit. He had that license from Sheedy.



That's too low a bar, even Rioli, Harvey, Swan played 'well' when moved to half-back, but none played to their level. The fact that Essendon couldn't afford to play Hird back there for too long suggests this, as do other comments, including that he was 'loose' and had bags kicked on him.



LOL, of course they did, just not in those exact words.
Again we just have to agree to disagree as their is a massive void between our positions and interpretations. No point taking it further.
 
Feb 24, 2013
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No offence but the bolted part is just ridiculous. "Down hill skiing narcissist". When posters fall into abuse to denigrate one of the great players of the era they bankrupt their argument

No argument here....Was merely sending a mirrored reflection back Monkey's way....Would have thought you'd of seen that.
 
Aug 31, 2011
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No . . . the sub 20 disposal average doesn't even apply, both players are over 20 disposals per game in finals. Voss went at 18 disposals a game, and it's on the back of some finals where he went missing.
Love to hear which games these were? (careful, there are a couple of finals games were Voss didn't play the 2nd half due to injury - but you'd know which games those are, right?;))

In fact, if you adjust for these games, Voss is averaging 21 disposals a game in finals....o_O
 
Oct 23, 2014
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Love to hear which games these were? (careful, there are a couple of finals games were Voss didn't play the 2nd half due to injury - but you'd know which games those are, right?;))

In fact, if you adjust for these games, Voss is averaging 21 disposals a game in finals....o_O

Why would you adjust for them? Just about every finals player has carried an injury in at some stage.

These are the games which I think we can safely say were poor, just off the stat sheet.

13 and 1 - SF 1996
4 and 1 - QF 1999
14 and 1 - QF 2001
7 and 0 - QF 2003
8 and 0 - PF 2003

There are also others games which don't look great, but could arguably have been decent games. 18 disposals, 0 goals in the 2003 Grand Final for instance.
 
Aug 31, 2011
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Why would you adjust for them? Just about every finals player has carried an injury in at some stage.

These are the games which I think we can safely say were poor, just off the stat sheet.

13 and 1 - SF 1996
4 and 1 - QF 1999
14 and 1 - QF 2001
7 and 0 - QF 2003
8 and 0 - PF 2003

There are also others games which don't look great, but could arguably have been decent games. 18 disposals, 0 goals in the 2003 Grand Final for instance.
Because he didn't even play half a game in some of them:confused:

Not sure about you, but there is a difference between playing injured and not be able to play on due to injury.

You can't tell me the ones he got injured in though can you:p
 
Oct 23, 2014
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Because he didn't even play half a game in some of them:confused:

Injury is part of the game, and affects everyone's record.

Not sure about you, but there is a difference between playing injured and not be able to play on due to injury.
You can't tell me the ones he got injured in though can you:p

Not off the top of my head. Although it's obvious from the 2003 finals series that he was at least able to play on since he played every game in that series.
 
Jan 31, 2007
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It's kind of misleading. Sort of like saying that Maurice Rioli has won a Norm Smith in every Grand Final he's played in.

He did, but given he only played in one, it would a superfluous comment.

Yes, and both in premiership years in which he didn't finish Top 20 for possessions or contested possessions or clearances. He didn't even win the BnF for Brisbane in 2002.

Correct. He came second to Black, but Black played 3 more games than Voss that season and he won the award from Voss by just 3 votes, with Voss having polled more votes p/game. This is one of the great things about the MVP, that it's not bound by the game by game voting system. The best example of this is 2000 MVP winner Koutoufides, who did his knee and was out-polled by Ratten and Camporeale having played 5 fewer games than the duo (again polled more votes p/game). The rest of the comp however knew that, missed games or not, Kouta was the game's preeminent player that season and he took the MVP.

As for stats, just shows not everything in our game is best measured by stats.
 
Jan 31, 2007
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Interesting. A definite Gap.

VS Pendlebury - 6 Hodge, 8 Pendlebury.
VS Swan - 11 Hodge, 3 Swan

If you asked who's the better player, I think your spread would have been different. I mean it doesn't surprise me a coach would want Hodge over Swan, given the non-playing part of the package. But I did put him a bit separate to the others in my post for a reason, as the gaps not that big; still IMO Swan had a higher sustained level of form than Hodge. Was a top 3 player in the league for a few seasons there.

Gone Critical has a good take I think, with his cream of the crop; perhaps Pendles does just fall short, but still ahead of Hodge IMO. But guys like GAJ, Fyfe, Voss, Hird, Judd, Buckley, they're really on another level. Just my opinion.
 
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No argument here....Was merely sending a mirrored reflection back Monkey's way....Would have thought you'd of seen that.

A mirrored reflection? Just shows how ridiculously sensitive you are re Hodge. I've never said a bad word about him, just that he's not a top tier player. It's a fair opinion too, whether you agree with it or not.
 

detox

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If you asked who's the better player, I think your spread would have been different. I mean it doesn't surprise me a coach would want Hodge over Swan, given the non-playing part of the package. But I did put him a bit separate to the others in my post for a reason, as the gaps not that big; still IMO Swan had a higher sustained level of form than Hodge. Was a top 3 player in the league for a few seasons there.

Gone Critical has a good take I think, with his cream of the crop; perhaps Pendles does just fall short, but still ahead of Hodge IMO. But guys like GAJ, Fyfe, Voss, Hird, Judd, Buckley, they're really on another level. Just my opinion.

Hodge in his best seasons has been a top 3 player in the league. In 2005, his champion data game average of 136 has only ever been beaten by Ablett. Fyfe, Judd ect haven't topped Hodge's 2005 at least statistically. Considering that Hodge has statistically the best ever season on record by anyone other than Ablett, and the 4th best season overall, it makes a mockery of your attempts to pretend that he's never been a top 3 player in the league. His 2010 he was top 3 player as well, ditto 2008. Swan agree in his prime easily top 3 for a few seasons. For all the piss and wind about Fyfe's last two seasons (and rightfully so) - 2005 Hodge averaged 12 more points per game than Fyfe in his last 2 seasons.

Of course though, these stats mean nothing, as do two norm smith medals according to you.
 
Oct 23, 2014
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He did, but given he only played in one, it would a superfluous comment.

It would be misleading as well.

Correct. He came second to Black, but Black played 3 more games than Voss that season and he won the award from Voss by just 3 votes

3 games is not exactly a Nat Fyfe or Koutoufides situation though, is it?
As for stats, just shows not everything in our game is best measured by stats.

There still has to be some sort of proof in the numbers. In 2003 he was well behind even a young Chris Judd in contested possessions, and with none of the breakaway speed or goalkicking.
 
Feb 24, 2013
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A mirrored reflection? Just shows how ridiculously sensitive you are re Hodge. I've never said a bad word about him, just that he's not a top tier player. It's a fair opinion too, whether you agree with it or not.

Yep....Equally As tetchy as you, whenever Judd is questioned or put to criticism in anyway....Ante up & admit it without resorting to silly over-man claims.

Your replies in here lie testament to that fact.

After his move to Carlton, any claims on Judd's behalf to being a top-tier player, are fanciful....To say the least....That there is also a fair opinion.

In the past 5 years, Hodge has transcended anything Judd has done in his career....And with some ease too.....Which the history books will attest to.
 

detox

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If you asked who's the better player, I think your spread would have been different. I mean it doesn't surprise me a coach would want Hodge over Swan, given the non-playing part of the package. But I did put him a bit separate to the others in my post for a reason, as the gaps not that big; still IMO Swan had a higher sustained level of form than Hodge. Was a top 3 player in the league for a few seasons there.

Gone Critical has a good take I think, with his cream of the crop; perhaps Pendles does just fall short, but still ahead of Hodge IMO. But guys like GAJ, Fyfe, Voss, Hird, Judd, Buckley, they're really on another level. Just my opinion.

Interesting to note as well, seeing as you love mentioning the absolute validity of number of AA selections in previous posts, here's something I found interesting.

Judd averaged 110.9 champion Data points in 2009.
Judd Averaged 108.9 champion data points in 2008.

AA in both of these years.

Hodge averaged 110.7 Champion Data points in 2007
Hodge Averaged 108.2 Champion Data points in 2015

AA in none of these years.
 
Feb 24, 2013
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Interesting to note as well, seeing as you love mentioning the absolute validity of number of AA selections in previous posts, here's something I found interesting.

Judd averaged 110.9 champion Data points in 2009.
Judd Averaged 108.9 champion data points in 2008.

AA in both of these years.

Hodge averaged 110.7 Champion Data points in 2007
Hodge Averaged 108.2 Champion Data points in 2015

AA in none of these years.

It's alot easier to 'stand-out' in a poor side.....Most especially, when your the only one with a bald head....How Judd got a gig ahead of Sammy in 2008,, still remains a mystery to all barr Gerard Healy.
 
Jan 31, 2007
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3 games is not exactly a Nat Fyfe or Koutoufides situation though, is it?

Kouta was only 5 games, so not sure what your point is there. Still, no reason to be dismissive of the point; going by averages Voss would have won his club's B&F in 2002 had he played the same amount of games as the winner. Not surprising at all to see an MVP winner in this situation.

There still has to be some sort of proof in the numbers.

There is more to our game than numbers, but I'm sure his 36 goals that year played a role.
 
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Hodge in his best seasons has been a top 3 player in the league. In 2005, his champion data game average of 136 has only ever been beaten by Ablett. Fyfe, Judd ect haven't topped Hodge's 2005 at least statistically.

Champion Data is okay as a guide, but you can't hang your hat on CD rankings. They often throw up some weird results. For example, this season it ranked Bontempelli just a slither behind Fyfe and Pendles well ahead of him.

Nonetheless, I did mention earlier that Hodge some top tier performances and seasons along the way, so you're not telling me anything new. Koutafides had a couple of genuinely top tier seasons too, but that doesn't mean he ranks up there with Hird, Carey, Voss etc.

Of course though, these stats mean nothing, as do two norm smith medals according to you.

The Norm Smith per se doesn't mean that much to me, no. Personally, I think Mitchell should have won in 2014 and Voss in 2002. What it does say though, is that Hodge has played a couple of ripping games in Grand Finals. It's definitely a feather in his cap, but it's not unparalleled, as some would claim it to be.
 
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Kouta was only 5 games, so not sure what your point is there.

Fyfe was even fewer, he just played on one leg.

There is more to our game than numbers, but I'm sure his 36 goals that year played a role.

He kicked 20 goals that year . . .
 

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Interesting to note as well, seeing as you love mentioning the absolute validity of number of AA selections in previous posts, here's something I found interesting.

Judd averaged 110.9 champion Data points in 2009.
Judd Averaged 108.9 champion data points in 2008.

AA in both of these years.

Hodge averaged 110.7 Champion Data points in 2007
Hodge Averaged 108.2 Champion Data points in 2015

AA in none of these years.
Mabye it is because the rest of the world doesn't think Hodge is as good as you do. Hodge is a great player and a club champion but he isn't an AFL champion in playing ability.
 
Hodge is a champion. In all the discussion around this thread I don't think any of the pro or con posters have made any dispute of that ( if someone is an outlier on that fine, lets accept the consensus). Since 2000 we have been lucky to see 3 of the all time great teams in history. We have also been lucky to see some all time greats.

If we look at those 3 teams they all 3 have a representatives in the all time great list. Brisbane Voss, Geelong GAJ and Hawks Buddy. 2 of them Brisbane and the Hawks also have a 2nd player who comes close, Black and Mitchell respectively. Of course below that come a host of other champs like Hodge, Aker, Stevie J, Johnno Brown, Rough, Scarlett etc.

There are a few other teams who can claim a representative of the very elite group which probably consists of Hird, Buckley, Riccuito, Judd with Fyfe pending. None of those teams can claim a depth of champions to match the big 3.

I don't think Hawthorn supporters should be too offended by what seems a pretty conclusive opinion from neutral supporters. Hodge is rightly loved massively by Hawk supporters for the wonderful style of footy he brings. I think of my own club and look at Pendles and see he plays a style of footy that looks sent from the Gods. As such he gets over rated as a player compared to say the less charismatic Swan. Again neither of these guys sit with the elites because they have never dominated the competition for enough off a period of time to earn that accolade.

That doesn't diminish them, they have fantastic records. It's just that the Voss's of the world just did it all that bit better. Leigh Matthews, Wayne Carey etc are on the next level again and there is no one above them.
 
Feb 24, 2013
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Hodge is a champion. In all the discussion around this thread I don't think any of the pro or con posters have made any dispute of that ( if someone is an outlier on that fine, lets accept the consensus). Since 2000 we have been lucky to see 3 of the all time great teams in history. We have also been lucky to see some all time greats.

If we look at those 3 teams they all 3 have a representatives in the all time great list. Brisbane Voss, Geelong GAJ and Hawks Buddy. 2 of them Brisbane and the Hawks also have a 2nd player who comes close, Black and Mitchell respectively. Of course below that come a host of other champs like Hodge, Aker, Stevie J, Johnno Brown, Rough, Scarlett etc.

There are a few other teams who can claim a representative of the very elite group which probably consists of Hird, Buckley, Riccuito, Judd with Fyfe pending. None of those teams can claim a depth of champions to match the big 3.

I don't think Hawthorn supporters should be too offended by what seems a pretty conclusive opinion from neutral supporters. Hodge is rightly loved massively by Hawk supporters for the wonderful style of footy he brings. I think of my own club and look at Pendles and see he plays a style of footy that looks sent from the Gods. As such he gets over rated as a player compared to say the less charismatic Swan. Again neither of these guys sit with the elites because they have never dominated the competition for enough off a period of time to earn that accolade.

That doesn't diminish them, they have fantastic records. It's just that the Voss's of the world just did it all that bit better. Leigh Matthews, Wayne Carey etc are on the next level again and there is no one above them.

Good post.

What Hawk supporters see that alot of neutrals wouldn't, is that our team is so good because of Hodge & his leadership....He demands high standards & won't tolerate half-arsed efforts.

Our style of play is very much moulded on & around him....He is a very ubiquitous footballer....His all-round-game has no weaknesses & so there is no one particular strength that 'stands-out' & grabs the attention....Our brand of attacking, precision football is balanced out with a solid, no-nonsense accountable defense....Hodge in a nut-shell

He is every inch the leader of his team & that particulate trait gets lost in translation when it comes to opposition supporters rating him as a footballer...He is a team-first player, which is what makes him the best captain we've ever had.

The fact he stands up on Grand Final day to rise to another level is no surprise to us, given so much of his energies during the regular season are spent educating the other players, instructing & communicating to them on the right way to go about it....On Grand Final day he displays his true standing & wares as a footballer....And it is every bit on a par with anything Voss has had to offer.
 

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Hodge is a champion. In all the discussion around this thread I don't think any of the pro or con posters have made any dispute of that ( if someone is an outlier on that fine, lets accept the consensus). Since 2000 we have been lucky to see 3 of the all time great teams in history. We have also been lucky to see some all time greats.

If we look at those 3 teams they all 3 have a representatives in the all time great list. Brisbane Voss, Geelong GAJ and Hawks Buddy. 2 of them Brisbane and the Hawks also have a 2nd player who comes close, Black and Mitchell respectively. Of course below that come a host of other champs like Hodge, Aker, Stevie J, Johnno Brown, Rough, Scarlett etc.

There are a few other teams who can claim a representative of the very elite group which probably consists of Hird, Buckley, Riccuito, Judd with Fyfe pending. None of those teams can claim a depth of champions to match the big 3.

I don't think Hawthorn supporters should be too offended by what seems a pretty conclusive opinion from neutral supporters. Hodge is rightly loved massively by Hawk supporters for the wonderful style of footy he brings. I think of my own club and look at Pendles and see he plays a style of footy that looks sent from the Gods. As such he gets over rated as a player compared to say the less charismatic Swan. Again neither of these guys sit with the elites because they have never dominated the competition for enough off a period of time to earn that accolade.

That doesn't diminish them, they have fantastic records. It's just that the Voss's of the world just did it all that bit better. Leigh Matthews, Wayne Carey etc are on the next level again and there is no one above them.
great post Gone Critical, like the way you have explained that. i like the polls board section as it always brings out differing opinions and lively debate especially in polls that are, or perceived to be close. a lot also depends on the method you use to rate the players being polled. ie.
1. very hard to rate players when you haven't seen them play eg. i found it difficult to compare wayne carey and gary ablett snr as i hadn't seen any of snr. play but carey had, albeit only the last few years of his career. i only started following AFL closely in the late 90's. so all i had to go on with snr. was reputation and stats and a few outstanding highlight reels.
2. some people put a higher weighting on stats/awards than others. i personally don't look too much into stats or awards.
3. some take into account the position played, some positions are considered harder to play then others eg. most people i talk to say CHF is the most difficult position to play so they give more credence to players who play that role at an elite level than say a small defender or midfielder.
4. do you rate your player on consistency of performance over a whole career, or on their top level performances in finals/GFs/big H&A games?

overall it is my opinion that too much weight is given to how many times players have been premiership players, which in most cases is purely the luck of being called out by the correct club on draft night. i would never rate players like tony lockett, gary ablett snr, kevin murray, nathan buckley, robert harvey, matthew richardson, bob skilton etc. etc.... down simply because they never played in premierships.
conversely if a 3 time premiership player like simon black (pick 31, 1997 draft) had been picked up by fremantle who had three selections before pick 31 it is highly unlikely he would have been even a 1 time premiership player unless you think simon would have made that much difference to say the 2013 GF. i feel 1 player does not make all that much difference, a group of players yes. then you have cases where players who are largely thought of as their teams best players leave eg. gary ablett and lance franklin and the teams they have left win the competition the very next year.
when i'm rating players i usually think which of these players would i pick first in a side if i was selecting a side for a finals series/GF or for one full season, and i very rarely look at stats unless i haven't seen them play, i go by what i have seen and i like the intangibles of the game like, lifting in big moments/tap ons/pressure/desperation/the 1% ers. and that is why i have hodge and voss as the 2 favorite players (not necessarily the best) i have seen play and close in ability. but if i could only pick 1 at the absolute top of their powers i would take vossy.

all just my opinion though:)
 
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On Grand Final day he displays his true standing & wares as a footballer....And it is every bit on a par with anything Voss has had to offer.
You're judging a whole career from 3 games out of Hodge's 271+ games?

You are investing a lot of time and effort in those GF's when in reality there are better players who didn't even win one.

How do you judge those players who didn't play/win in a GF against Hodge?
 
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