Opinion Mick Malthouse

What is the next move on Mick?

  • Sack him immediately; replacement coach to see out the year.

    Votes: 192 48.9%

  • Let him coach out the year then show him the door.

    Votes: 70 17.8%

  • Sign him now to give coaches and players some direction.

    Votes: 81 20.6%

  • Not sure yet... still too angry to think clearly.

    Votes: 50 12.7%
  • Total voters
    393
  • Poll closed .

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I should have added...it's a slow burn building a successful football club, especially when you start from as far back as we did in terms of professionalism and excellence, both on and off the field...
 
We went backwards last year, SBYM. Much of that wasn't Mick's fault - Duigan and Scotland retired early. Kreuzer and Judd injured. Bootsma, Waite, Robinson and Garlett all off the rails at various points of the season.

I don't expect us to make the finals - we have a difficult last 3rd of the season and with Kreuzer missing early we lack an AFL quality ruck. A dozen changes to the playing group is too much to expect instant success.

At the end of the day we lost 14 and won 7. I'd just like to turn up to the game with the confidence we're better than a 1 in 3 chance of winning - that starts with the coach distilling belief in the players.
 
Azul said:
We went backwards last year, SBYM. Much of that wasn't Mick's fault - Duigan and Scotland retired early. Kreuzer and Judd injured. Bootsma, Waite, Robinson and Garlett all off the rails at various points of the season.

I don't expect us to make the finals - we have a difficult last 3rd of the season and with Kreuzer missing early we lack an AFL quality ruck. A dozen changes to the playing group is too much to expect instant success.

At the end of the day we lost 14 and won 7. I'd just like to turn up to the game with the confidence we're better than a 1 in 3 chance of winning - that starts with the coach distilling belief in the players.
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I never said we didn't go backwards...

As I initially stated, Ratts lost me when a team a whisker from a prelim in 2011 missed the finals in 2012 on the back of some listless, spiritless crap.

That Monday night St Kilda game, for example...top spot on the line and we served up absolute tripe (forgot to include that Adelaide completely monstered us the following week...great response...:()

We found out where the CFC really was that year...Ratts was a victim of the sins of many - justified in my eyes but I can see why others disagree - and MM was brought in to provide what Ratts couldn't. Many thought he would be what we needed. He wasn't and no coach brought in could have been, but since the eyes of our club have been opened to the realities of our situation and our direction has changed, in my opinion MM has not put a foot wrong in reinventing the place (a shitload of work has also been put in by others, Macca, for example) in order to eventually bring about sustained and lasting success...the type of success Hawthorn has built.

Just on Hawthorn...they were a laughing stock ten years ago, as were we. In 2005 they appointed Alistair Clarkson as coach and they have since enjoyed a run of sustained success on the back of the stability and professionalism his presence has helped to engender.

We are still a laughing stock.

tl;dr...let's give MM some time. If we were stagnating then I wouldn't be saying this. We ain't stagnating but... Positive change is afoot...it just takes time in this caper.
 
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SBYM said:
I should have added...it's a slow burn building a successful football club, especially when you start from as far back as we did in terms of professionalism and excellence, both on and off the field...
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Yeah, it will take time. At least we're beginning to be a little more honest in our self-appraisal. Positivity is a great thing for a club to have, but you can't let it cloud reality as it seemed to in the past.
 
Don't know enough about the state of injuries right now to make a call on how well the Club starts the season. Truth is every team has 5-6 stars who if aren't on the field see the side fall back to average/awful. People freaking out about a loss to WC with Henderson/Murphy/Gibbs/Everitt/Menzel/Thomas/Judd out and the Coach not even being there should understand that this was a genuine training run.

Bell/Yarran/Jacksh/Tuohey/Cripps/Curnow all played well - there was no midfield cohesion and there was no controlled delivery to forward line but Boekhurst showed enough to lock up subs vest for round one.

Judging Malthouse or even commenting about the bloke based on this praccy game is embarrassing.
 
This last weekend has no bearing on my opinion (bar my aforementioned burgeoning love affair with Kristian Jacksch).

We are, at best, a ten win team. We have some hope for a few kids to improve, but our top end players are at their peak or even decline. I don't see us becoming a 14+ win team with this list.

That said, if Daisy becomes an A grader again, Cripps and Menzel become A graders this year, we can step it up a bit.

Having a fit pre-season will really show our true level. Last year was a waste, and hard to judge with so many poor preseason workloads due to injury.


This year, there is no excuse. We have one of the fittest lists running around (in terms of preseason injury).

I have faith in the process. I love that we have turned over the junk on the list. I will go into the season with my current expectations of 7-10 wins. If we win a few early games, I might get properly excited for footy again.
 
rp84 said:
We are, at best, a ten win team. We have some hope for a few kids to improve, but our top end players are at their peak or even decline. I don't see us becoming a 14+ win team with this list.
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I don't think Judd Carrazzo and Simpson can hold on for much longer but it has been a known issue for several years. Generational change is something we've addressed in one draft period, with Jaksch, Dick, Tutt, Jones, Boekhorst, Whiley and Fields just begging for an opportunity.

Midfield wise, we've barely scratched the surface of what Cripps, Graham and Holman can provide, so there's optimism. Part of clearing out Robinson, Lucas and McLean was to accelerate their development and I don't think we'll see too much of Ellard and Armfield during the regular season.

Scoring is obviously a concern but if Menzel, Yarran and Walker provide 80 goals between them then it takes the pressure off the big lugs.

4 quarter fitness, a winning culture and the lack of a ruckman are the standout issues for me.

Ten wins should be the bare minimum; we lost or drew about 9 games by less than 4 goals in 2014.
 
Azul said:
I don't think Judd Carrazzo and Simpson can hold on for much longer but it has been a known issue for several years. Generational change is something we've addressed in one draft period, with Jaksch, Dick, Tutt, Jones, Boekhorst, Whiley and Fields just begging for an opportunity.

Midfield wise, we've barely scratched the surface of what Cripps, Graham and Holman can provide, so there's optimism. Part of clearing out Robinson, Lucas and McLean was to accelerate their development and I don't think we'll see too much of Ellard and Armfield during the regular season.

Scoring is obviously a concern but if Menzel, Yarran and Walker provide 80 goals between them then it takes the pressure off the big lugs.

4 quarter fitness, a winning culture and the lack of a ruckman are the standout issues for me.

Ten wins should be the bare minimum; we lost or drew about 9 games by less than 4 goals in 2014.
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Good analysis.

We were 'unlucky' too often last year. That is a symptom of a greater disease.

There are 6 teams I would think are clearly better than us, and about 4-6 I'd put in the same level.

Yarran looks to be playing HB again. Can't think AW will be an influence on the season with limited prep.

Have huge hopes for Cripps and Menzel. None for Holman or Graham.

No AFL quality ruck again.

Don't undersell a fit Murphy, Gibbs and Daisy.

10 wins is my prediction. Is that a success? No.
 
GoBlues! said:
Would 10 wins, 12 competitive/narrow losses, the establishment of Cripps, Jaksch and Boekhorst as regular senior players, and a functioning forward line with Hendo/Levi/Jones be a success?
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If all those things happen, we will win more than 10 games.
 

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GoBlues! said:
Would 10 wins, 12 competitive/narrow losses, the establishment of Cripps, Jaksch and Boekhorst as regular senior players, and a functioning forward line with Hendo/Levi/Jones be a success?
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Would we then be approaching midnight on the premiership clock???
 
Before Mick came aboard the tail had been allowed to wag the dog for at least 10 years, so yeah, Mick was starting from a long way back. It wasn't just the mental attitude of the players that required major adjustment, but also that of the board and management of the club. Things that once used to be considered acceptable or "turned a blind eye to" had to become unacceptable non-negotiables if a positive culture was to be instilled. Waite, Garlett & Co were essentially the last few of that era to be "moved on". To instil a code of discipline, responsibility, a team-oriented mentality and a strong work ethic as a day-to-day culture is not something that happens overnight.

When you add the best 17 year olds had already been poached from the system before the number of compromised drafts for GCS & GWS took place, then it doesn't make it any easier to rebuild a list. Like them or loathe them, one really has to admire the Swans for setting up their academy which allowed them to still acquire what would've been top 10 picks in an uncompromised draft. While it really was a masterstroke of absolute bloody genius, they still had to do all the legwork to identify the local talent and then put the necessary systems in place to develop it and essentially lock it away. I haven't even begun to scratch the surface of just one of the systems the Swans have put in place to ensure nothing but the highest possible standards are maintained, but wanted to mention it to illustrate just how far behind the 8 ball we are in terms of being a visionary force. GWS have also set up their own academy and I have little doubt that this was one of the reasons the club went out of it's way to acquire SOS. If the management of CFC has any brains, rather than bitch and moan about the Swans gaining Mitchell & Heeney etc, it should go cap-in-hand to the AFL Commission and say, "Give us the resources (including funding) and we'll set up an academy in NT and Tassie. We'll do all the development work, but we want the same concessions as Sydney, GWS, Brisbane and GCS".

For those expecting Cripps and Menzel to step it up to be A-Graders this year will just have to hold their horses. You need to remember that it took Murphy 3-4 years to become week-in-week-out A-Grade material and Gibbs took twice as long. Mick's on the right track with developing a list to be more than competitive against all the other teams, but I would think that he'd need at least another 3 years before we're not only making top 8, but not just making up the numbers. The point of this post is demonstrate how far behind the Swans, Geelong, Hawthorn, Collingwood and Port that Carlton has been in its ability to process new ways of development and in its day-to-day operations. Remember that it's not just the Coach, Players and/or their on field performance that will ensure sustained success, but also the decisions made and systems put in place by both the management and board to achieve their vision of where they see the Club going forward. If any of the players, the coach, board members, management and/or staff don't share that vision, then they shouldn't be there...period.

 
The Smoking Gun said:
rather than bitch and moan about the Swans gaining Mitchell & Heeney etc, it should go cap-in-hand to the AFL Commission and say, "Give us the resources (including funding) and we'll set up an academy in NT and Tassie. We'll do all the development work, but we want the same concessions as Sydney, GWS, Brisbane and GCS".
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Gun great post and your main thesis is not a bad one. But I cant help thinking that the real thinking behind the academy came from the AFL. The AFL recognized that in the rugby states that the local development was far behind what was is the southern states; that the best people to develop this were the clubs who would benefit the most ie swans in sydney , and, to a certain extent this might equalize the father and son advantage that the victorian clubs enjoy . Is it a coincidence that you mention the expansion teams and their innovations - I think not, they have been hand held and lead all the way by the AFL. The AFL have created this lopsided competition and the Big D with his equally sized ego, wanted to continue this inequality because in his demented mind , the more successful the interstate clubs were , the more successful he would appear to be- even if it was at the expense (health) of the southern clubs. I dont think that it is a coincidence that his successor is trying to wind back the power of say sydney, by cracking down on the use of their salary cap for the recruitment of the Buddies and the Tippets.
Now would the AFL allow Carlton to develop their own academy? Let me explore why they wouldnt
1 If they offer us say the NT concession for eg They would feel that we would not be in the position to really give the same resources to it than say a truly NT based expansion side who would have the players and management locally that could spark the local interest and motivation
2 perversely they might be afraid that we could become too successful and with our undoubted backroom financial resources we could gain an unfair advantage. NB How very disingenuous this would be
3 If they offer a concession to us then they would have to do the same for all southern clubs- whereas if they limited it to the expansion clubs then that is surely more palatable at least in the short term.
But maybe Gillam is ready to take some more risks that might help even the competition back up.
 
I don't disagree with you therubbernub regarding anything you've stated there, but the Swans still had to make it work...and have. Remember that I've only used one example from one club regarding forward thinking and making the most of their resources...and that is only in one area, of an undoubted many, in which the Swans operate their business. Competent, thoughtful and visionary decisions made at board level have led to clubs which exhibit the qualities of strength, stability and sustainable success both on and off the field. It should be noted that Hawthorn, Port, Collingwood and Geelong have also had boards that have been able to achieve their visions through sound decision making, which have resulted in strong and powerful clubs. As much as it pains me to say so, the Tigers are even ahead of us and also beginning to head in this direction. It should be noted that all the above mentioned clubs, except Port, also carry no debt.
  • For all our "undoubted backroom financial resources" CFC still carries as much debt as any other AFL club and until we no longer have to rely upon "egotistical" white knights who expect a say in running the club for providing their "donations" (and let's face it, I would) then the ability for competent decision making will always be somewhat compromised resulting in an unstable working environment. Getting rid of debt will ultimately mean that destabilising forces such as Mathieson will wield much less influence. While I'm sure he feels he has the club's best interests at heart, it doesn't always work that way.
  • That Malthouse negotiated to appoint his own Director of Coaching (someone he trusts), rather than the club appointing one (someone they trust and control), should speak volumes about what Mick concluded regarding the club's managerial competence and trustworthiness.
  • That we are at 100% of our salary cap and finished 13th, yet the reigning premiers could still afford to bring Frawley on board while retaining all their stars speaks volumes about our Club's ability to assess the "value" or otherwise of our list objectively.
  • Until all divisions of the club get their act together and begin to operate as a single collective to achieve a common goal it will continue to impact in other areas such as membership as well. Even Brisbane has more members than us FFS.
Every club Mick has coached over a very long career before he came to us have at least made a Prelim, so I have little doubt he knows exactly what he's doing. The big question is of course, will the club have the patience, intestinal fortitude to make the correct decisions to stay the path to achieve the vision. Let Malthouse stay and finish what he started I say.
 
Sacking Coaches is a great way for boofheads on Boards to cover up their own shortcomings. Still - the competition will become exceedingly boring if the same teams are competing for the flag every year. Port Adelaide has been a breath of fresh air - but please lets not gild the lilly - their Board and management has been a rabble for over a decade - they did however manage to develop a bunch of high draft picks very well - so Carlton has had the same potential advantages of high draft picks for years- and squandered them year after year after year.

The Pagan / Ratten eras were an absolute disgrace as far as list management and player development goes.
 
JustaBattler said:
Sacking Coaches is a great way for boofheads on Boards to cover up their own shortcomings. Still - the competition will become exceedingly boring if the same teams are competing for the flag every year. Port Adelaide has been a breath of fresh air - but please lets not gild the lilly - their Board and management has been a rabble for over a decade - they did however manage to develop a bunch of high draft picks very well - so Carlton has had the same potential advantages of high draft picks for years- and squandered them year after year after year.

The Pagan / Ratten eras were an absolute disgrace as far as list management and player development goes.
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JAB I think the Pagan era was always destined to fail in a way not because Denis couldn't coach but we all know the reason why.Ratts was taking over from that difficult period in our clubs so you could see how much work was to be done,I do understand how many of our decisions simply didn't work out with our picks:).

In regards to Mick well I'm very Pro MM,I do understand& value all of you guys opinions & have to say you're all very intelligent &know your footy that's for sure;).For me I would want Mick to continue what he started he knows what he's doing yes it will take time but I'd rathyer be patient and I know it can get frustrating but if you see the foundations being laid eventually we'll see the rewards I'm pretty confident of that.

To them Mick was very successful at all his previous clubs he coached prior to us& I don't see why he can't be again.At the end of the day fair call if Mick & the club& everyone involved weren't on the same page in the end& the best decision to part ways was to happen then I'd understand.But for me personally at the moment I think we have the right coach in place:).
 
To be fair to Mick what has killed the club has been recruiting and development.

The 2009, 10 & 11 drafts in particular have hurt us Lucas, Watson & Bootsma were our first round picks. The one saving grace is trading for Docherty who was drafted 10 picks higher up than Bootsma in 2011 so hopefully he can turn into an A grader.

We really need Menzel (2012), Cripps (2013) & Boekhorst (2014) to become A graders we can't afford another 3 wasted drafts. I think everyone knows Menzel is a Jet let's just hope the other 2 lads turn into A graders!
 
SurreyBlue said:
Mick can't afford for the team to not improve this year. I don't think the club will be as lenient as last year.
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Good point at least we have minimal injuries at this stage of the year. Think only Kruezer and Walker won't be available come round 1....
 
Pagan era failed because he had no players, had the worst list in the league and had no draft picks to start it off.

Not only this we had the worst equipped board, club and football department over the whole league. We had no money. We had nothing.

To back this up we had a board looking to do the impossible and that was a quick fix.

Pagan could coach but we gave him nothing. We had nothing and pushed him in the wrong direction and made things worse.

Had we picked Pagan, said well look we know things are bad, hit the list hard, go hard for the players we need, lets beef up the recruiting department and supply the guy with good football staff and put in a long term plan then I think we would have achieved something with Pagan. I have very few doubts Pagan would have had success with Carlton if we fully equipped him and supported him and were smarter about it.

This is the difference between him and Malthouse, at least we are trying to do the right thing this time and supporting the guy and build a competitive and healthy list and footy department.

There's a lot less chest pumping, bravado and board members thinking with their ego instead of their brains. There is still a bit of this going around as seen from Matheson earlier.

I don't expect Carlton to be a raging success this year. I think maybe we'll have a flourish towards the end of the season but in reality I think we'll be one of those teams battling it out to make the bottom of the top 8. I think we'll find we still have midfield depth issues and forward line issues and the possible changing of the guard with players could be disruptive and frustrating at times. I'd be glad to be surprised and do better though.
 
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