Opinion Mick Malthouse

What is the next move on Mick?

  • Sack him immediately; replacement coach to see out the year.

    Votes: 192 48.9%
  • Let him coach out the year then show him the door.

    Votes: 70 17.8%
  • Sign him now to give coaches and players some direction.

    Votes: 81 20.6%
  • Not sure yet... still too angry to think clearly.

    Votes: 50 12.7%

  • Total voters
    393
  • Poll closed .

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Windhover

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OK Windhover, I'm happy to concede and put your methodology into operation.


My methodology?



Now how many more coaches do we need to sack before we appoint the "lucky one"???

Oh, I see, my methodology is to just keep sacking coaches until we get lucky? Is that what you are "conceding"?

[PS: I have consulted the tea leaves and the answer is "a pineapple":)]. Just make sure you don't get the "fluffy end".
 

gbatman

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It's interesting, you compare the drafting of us and Port. Port have picked some out and out stars at times where we haven't picked a player who rates amongst the leagues best since Gibbs in 2007. This is a long long time without genuine top end and top midfield talent coming into us, especially via the ND.
We've got a list loaded with filler players or good complimentary players but our match winners where our core should be, where are they! Gibbs, Murphy and Judd are those players but we need some 18-23 year olds who are as good or better in our side if we are going to do a Port Adelaide.

I think now we have list structure, heaps of filler type players who can play but aren't core match winners, we are now in a position where all we really need are star players. How you'd love a Wines, Langford or a Trelor at Carlton playing under Murphy, Judd and Gibbs. This is where the hole is and we know it. Where all our fadeouts and losses come from. Fingers crossed Cripps turns out and we can find a couple of young mids who are/will be top end quality.
 

DaVillaBlues

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We have the talent, or at least potential to "do a Port Adelaide". Line up the lists. Order taken from Champion Data ratings of Port and throwing up a similar player from our list. We have some clear "losing" match ups, some winners, some rough matches and some "suck it and see". We are not far away. The game plan, health an motivation of the list provide significant variables. I am in the camp that rates our list much more talented than the nay sayers want to believe. No expectation = no disappointment

Westhoff Henderson
Boak Gibbs
Gray Walker
Wingard Menzel
Ryder > Casboult
Schulz > Jones
Carlile Jamison
Ebert Murphy
White < Yarran
Broadbent < Simpson
Hartlett Judd
Lobbe Kreuzer
O'Shea White
Pittard Docherty
Polec < Thomas
Neade Buckley
Monfries Carrazzo
Trengove > Rowe
Stewart < Everitt
Jonas Tuohy
Wines Cripps
Hombsch Jaksch
Mitchell Boekhorst
Cornes Curnow
Young < Bell
Moore Sheehan
Butcher < Watson
Impey Smith/DVR
Colquhoun Whiley
Redden Warnock/Wood
Clurey Giles/Fields

Not matched Graham, Tutt, Ellard, Armfield, Dick, Holman, Foster, Johnson, Byrne, Walsh, Gowers, Russel, some potential upside there too.

Clearly can be stated Wingard > Menzel, Wines > Cripps (similarly Judd > Hartlett)
we are talking the ability of our list to take a leap like Port 2 years ago.
We have the cattle

Sorry but you are way off, mainly due to injury, Walker is no where near Gray's level right now (I acknowledge it may happen again, I hope so) and sorry I love Daisy, but Polec is a fair way ahead of him, based on last season's form.
Doc isn't on Pittard's level yet (but should be within 18 months) and I seriously doubt Jones can be our Jay Schultz (hasn't got the body strength and power of JS, plus his kicking at goal is erratic)

And the fact you compare Cripps with Wines is wishful thinking (at best)
 

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DaVillaBlues

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Whether Hinkley might have done better with our list than MM is one of those irrelevant imponderables I spend no time thinking about. My argument (not the simplistic rubbish you and others pretend I assert) is that 2 years is more than ample time to assess MM's worth as coach and the idea that we should happily (ignorantly) wait at least a further 3 years to discover, hey, ole Windy was right, MM is a has been, is an attitude I find extraordinary.
You ask where is our Robbie Gray. Hinkley might have asked the same when he came to Port. Gray had played 2 games the year before because of injury and prior to that had been a useful forward. Now he is a gun midfielder. I don't know but maybe Menzel or Cripps could do something similar. Or if only Bell had shown any improvement on his first season in 2012 through good coaching and on-field deployment, who knows?


I agree with you as to the second part and disagree with you as to the first part. No doubt there have been worse coaches than Primus and Port have been truly blessed to have Hinkley. He has got the team playing to an identifiable game plan from game 1, a game plan that most reckon at least gives Port a chance of going all the way in Hinkley's third year. Heaven help Port if Hinkley had instructed them to play with the MM game plan. It doesn't bear thinking about.


Your claim that Port "nailed" most of their national drafts between 2007-11 does not survive investigation. To help you I list below:

2007
Port - Lobbe, Marlon Motlop, Redden, Davenport and M (not Justin) Westhoff - 4 duds and a slowly maturing ruckman
Carlton - Kreuzer, Browne, Armfield (and we traded some picks for a dud called Judd)

2008
Port - Hartlett, Trengove - 2 great picks (I believe we were very interested in Hartlett).
Carlton - Yarran, Robinson - I strongly disapproved of the selection of Yaz at the time but am very, very happy we have him and Robbo, for all his faults, was still a good pick.

2009
Port - Butcher (8), Moore (9), Pittard - Butcher is yet to prove himself but they are all fair picks. They might have nailed the draft if they had picked even one of Fyfe, Carlisle, Talia, Lewis Jetta or Mitch Duncan.
Carlton - Lucas (not our best draft)

2010
Port - Ben Jacobs, Ben Newtown, Aaron Young and O'Shea (53) - O'Shea can play and Young is still on their list.
Carlton - Watson (again, not our best draft)

2011
Port - Wingard, Ah Chee, Blee - One star, 2 duds.
Carlton - Bootsma, Rowe and Buckley - 1 dud, 2 good gets.

Conclusion
In the 5 years you nominated Port picked up 4 good players (Wingard, Hartlett, Trengove and O'Shea). 2 competent players (Moore, Pittard) and Butcher and Young have not proved they cannot play. In the same period we picked up 2 good players (Kreuzer, Yarran), 4 competent players (Rowe, Buckley, Armfield and Robbo) and of course traded picks and players for Judd. To describe Port as having "nailed" their drafting in that period is laughable. Even we did little worse and, except in 2007, Port had first dibs!



Let's suppose you are right that MM inherited a crap list. The important thing is that a new coach coming to a club should not be given the luxury of mucking around with the crap list for a year before doing anything. I expect a new coach coming to Carlton to know that the list is no good (for their ideas about the game) and start implementing changes to the list from the get-go. MM did not do that. MM assessed the list as pretty good when he arrived at Carlton (and I happen to agree with him on that one).

Therefore, either you are right (and MM and I are wrong) and the list was crap at the end of 2012 - in which case a good coach would have started drastic surgery immediately (and not, a year later, recruited a broken down favourite on a big contract to play out the back end of his career in a team needing rebuild not top-up).

Or, alternatively, you are wrong and MM and I were right to assess the list at the end of 2012 as having plenty of maturing upside with little short-term downside and capable of competing for the flag in coming seasons. In which case the results under MM have been deplorable.

As you can see on either analysis MM cannot escape serious criticism.

Some criticism of Mick and his recruiting strategy is fine (not sold on the Liam Jones and Tutt pick ups tbh) but I am not sure if your negativity of the game plan is justified (he did win a flag with it 5 years ago with it)

I do admit I much prefer it when the players go up and attack through corridor then going hitting the boundary, but not convinced we have the list yet capable of doing that for an entire game.

You can't deny Yarran and Gibbs have become much better players under Mick then Ratts (and seems to be working wonders with Watson)

Take the win/loss % out of the equation, player/youth development is a lot better under MM then Ratts.

I think our task in rebuilding has been a lot tougher with the Suns and Giants coming in and hoarding draft picks in recent years.
 

DaVillaBlues

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I've always felt that a combo of poor management after the 2000 era combined with draft penalties AND the compromised crafts of the late 2000s have combined as a perfect storm of shitness in which we find ourselves.

I actually think the rot started around 1997, the club held onto club legends/greats from the 95 premiership team too long, plus recruiting recycled imports like Mick McGuane and drafting battlers like Sam Smart set the club down a road of carnage, and ill prepared for the 2002 draft penalties.

This is partly why I am against replacing Mick at the end of 2015, it would be a flashback to those old days of a 'quick-fix' in the 80s/90s.

Footy has moved on from that era, so hopefully has our footy club.
 

Navy Cream

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I've always felt that a combo of poor management after the 2000 era combined with draft penalties AND the compromised crafts of the late 2000s have combined as a perfect storm of shitness in which we find ourselves.
Arrghh. Shitness- a word not used often enough, like ginormous and chyperhondriac.
 
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I actually think the rot started around 1997, the club held onto club legends/greats from the 95 premiership team too long, plus recruiting recycled imports like Mick McGuane and drafting battlers like Sam Smart set the club down a road of carnage, and ill prepared for the 2002 draft penalties.

This is partly why I am against replacing Mick at the end of 2015, it would be a flashback to those old days of a 'quick-fix' in the 80s/90s.

Footy has moved on from that era, so hopefully has our footy club.
Yeah absolutely right in my opinion. The timing of our exclusion from drafts was terrible because of the amount of senior players we had leaving.
 

Navy Cream

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Yeah absolutely right in my opinion. The timing of our exclusion from drafts was terrible because of the amount of senior players we had leaving.
Couldn't agree more. Just look how long its taking to get our schizen together. Multiply that x2 and subtract from 2015. That's when it started. We never changed with the times. God I hope we've learnt from the past.
 

DaVillaBlues

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Really? :oops: He played 1 more AFL game than you ever will, sunshine.

Pick 38 is a fairly modest pick. At the time Harry was on the verge of retiring, Allan was only just coming of age and Porter had yet to play a game off the rookie list.

Yeah I think I was probably a bit unfair on him (just looked up the 96 national draft on wikipedia, would have to be probably one of the top 3 worst national drafts of all time)

Still, our poor national draft picks and recycled player trading from 96 - 2001 was telling, and I feel Parko was too loyal/sentimental by holding on to aging champions for a year or two too long.
 

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Azul

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Parkin infamously didn't rebuild. Remember at the time we were still in an infinite 'window'; to Parkin's credit we unexpectedly made the grannie in 99 with a very s**t team.

Oh and McGuane was a disaster but I suspect there was something fishy about his medical records - bloody magpies. :mad:
 

Coona Blues

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Sorry but you are way off, mainly due to injury, Walker is no where near Gray's level right now (I acknowledge it may happen again, I hope so) and sorry I love Daisy, but Polec is a fair way ahead of him, based on last season's form.
Doc isn't on Pittard's level yet (but should be within 18 months) and I seriously doubt Jones can be our Jay Schultz (hasn't got the body strength and power of JS, plus his kicking at goal is erratic)

And the fact you compare Cripps with Wines is wishful thinking (at best)

:rolleyes:
Are you not capable of putting things in perspective?
The discussion in which you have been so vocal, relates to our readiness to take a leap similar to Port Adelaide in 2013.(they finished 7th iirc)
There are none so blind as he who will not see.
Cripps (in his 2nd year) can have a Wines like impact circa 2013. Walker fit and forward compares with Gray, a very good player,who is
flattered because of other forwards commanding attention....read Schulz, Westhoff, Wingard, and a game plan having mids swarming forward.
Daisy a year on from his trials and back to his best eats Polec etc. Doc / Pittard 2013, kidding right. How effective was Schulz pre 2013?
The match ups are not definitive, but surely convey the message, we are talented enough.

The list comparison offered is Port circa 2015 when they are regarded by most as Top 4 locks, not 2013....get a grip.

The Malthouse thread dear boy. Our list is good enough, the real question is more about MM's game plan and ability to
extract the best from it. Better signs in the back end of 2014 as I said earlier in this thread, but some real questions.
 

gbatman

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Our drafting and our trading post 1995 was just awful, it was worse than our drafting post 2000. Yeah we were goodin 2000 but that was on the back of the guys we had in 1995 and the luck of having Whitnall gifted to us. We had so many years where none of the players we picked made it and trades where we blew picks on old has beens and guys who just could not play.

In the Hughes era at least some of his picks could play. He just spent top pick on good average players, later top picks and later round picks on guys who couldn't play at all. Fortunately he found a few in the rookie drafts. Again we blew top picks on guys who weren't worth it like Mclean.

Rogers, well it's hard to tell if many of his picks will be real special, some look capable and Menzel and Cripps look ok.

How we lost our way is hard to understand. In the VFL days when we were winning flags we were finding players from all over the country. We had guns we'd picked from other states, then all of a sudden we got lazy when it came to finding players and the other clubs went past us. Yeah we bought some players but we were good at finding them.

Didn't parko bring a heap of players and move a heap on early in his second stint at Carlton?
 
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I actually think the rot started around 1997, the club held onto club legends/greats from the 95 premiership team too long, plus recruiting recycled imports like Mick McGuane and drafting battlers like Sam Smart set the club down a road of carnage, and ill prepared for the 2002 draft penalties.

This is partly why I am against replacing Mick at the end of 2015, it would be a flashback to those old days of a 'quick-fix' in the 80s/90s.

Footy has moved on from that era, so hopefully has our footy club.

I fully agree with you in principle. But Mick is not the right choice long term. The Blues should be looking at the Hawthorn model and thinking outside the box in the coach they choose. But it should be someone younger that grows with a young list like Clarko did.
 

andrew_

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I fully agree with you in principle. But Mick is not the right choice long term. The Blues should be looking at the Hawthorn model and thinking outside the box in the coach they choose. But it should be someone younger that grows with a young list like Clarko did.

Like Brett Ratten?
 
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Like Brett Ratten?

Getting Brett Ratten is thinking outside the box? It's the same as Collingwood getting Buckley.

By out of the box, I meant an "unkown" that they did their due dilligence on in the same way Hawthorn did on Clarkson. You can find a perfectly good young coach if you go through the process PROPERLY. Which most clubs surprisingly don't do.
 

DaVillaBlues

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Getting Brett Ratten is thinking outside the box? It's the same as Collingwood getting Buckley.

By out of the box, I meant an "unkown" that they did their due dilligence on in the same way Hawthorn did on Clarkson. You can find a perfectly good young coach if you go through the process PROPERLY. Which most clubs surprisingly don't do.

Favourite sons should not coach their own club, aside from Woosha, can't remember any past champion coaching their club to a flag since Wallsy in 87 ..

Ratts will coach again, and be terrific at it, but sadly it won't be with us.

As for Mick's eventual replacement, someone like Leigh Tudor is at the top of my wish list, apparently he works extremely well mentoring young players, and his track record at all the clubs he has been an assistant at speaks for itself.

Sadly knowing Carlton and its penchant for needing a big name/someone with razzle dazzle, we'll end up hiring Michael Voss (and the terrible thing is, I'm only half-joking :( )
 
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Favourite sons should not coach their own club, aside from Woosha, can't remember any past champion coaching their club to a flag since Wallsy in 87 ..

Ratts will coach again, and be terrific at it, but sadly it won't be with us.

As for Mick's eventual replacement, someone like Leigh Tudor is at the top of my wish list, apparently he works extremely well mentoring young players, and his track record at all the clubs he has been an assistant at speaks for itself.

Sadly knowing Carlton and its penchant for needing a big name/someone with razzle dazzle, we'll end up hiring Michael Voss (and the terrible thing is, I'm only half-joking :( )

This is Carlton's problem. They won't get anywhere as a club until they stop running the club like it's 1978. They need to let go of all this buy this, throw money at that, poach this guy to "spite the enemy". That's just not how it's done anymore.
 

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I get what you're saying, Ed.

*Essendon tried to do the right thing by appointing Matty Knights but didn't have the cattle. Thankfully they've steadied the ship in appointing Nathan Bassett as (unofficial) senior coach for 2015.

And I'm entirely serious, Bassett will do wonders at Windy Hill once the drug cheats have been burned at the stake. SANFL back-to-back premiership coach 2012-3.
 

domin8tors

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Hardly, I think Mick's family issues are relevant to this discussion, considering Mick (rightfully) missed the NAB Challenge game to be at his wife's bedside during her medical procedure on Friday.

It should also be mentioned that Mick's been such an ornament to the game, I want him to leave Carlton and the game coaching on his terms, when he says he has lost the passion for the game.

Over 10 years ago, English soccer club Newcastle United sacked a manager who was held in similar high regard over there as Mick in their country (Sir Bobby Robson) and it was a massive PR and morale disaster for that club (they got relegated a year later)

Mick deserves to leave his final coaching job with his dignity, and frankly I think it would be a pretty short sighted decision to replace him after this season, even if we finish bottom 4.

Sacking coaches ever 2-3 years has never helped St Kilda or Footscray (for example)
What leave on his terms like a did by signing a contract and leaving Collingwood. funny man :rolleyes:
 

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Ok, Clarkson is a great coach no question, he's got a great support team backing him up, he's helped build sides, he's won premierships and spent a lot of time up the top of the ladder. But with the recruiting he's had and the amount of talent they have brought in over a short period of time, I think anyone would succeed at Hawthorn.

Lets compare Hawthorn's rebuild to our rebuild. I haven't included trades or free agents, but I think most of us are well aware that Hawthorn have us more than covered in this department.

2001 - Hodge, Ladson, Brown, Mitchell - Waite, Thornton
2002 - Sewell, Osborne - Simpson
2003 - nothing special, got Croad back - Walker, Carrazzo
2004 - Franklin, Lewis, Roughead, Young - Russell
2005 - Ellis, Birchall, Bailey, Gilham, McGlynn - Murphy, Kennedy
2006 - Kennedy, Suckling - Gibbs, Jacobs, Jamison
2007 - Rioli, Whitecross, Dew - Kreuzer
2008 - Schoenmakers, Shiels, Breust - Yarran, Robinson, Garlett
2009 - Stratton, Duryea - Touhy
2010 - Smith, Puopolo - Curnow
2011 - Hill - Rowe, Buckley
2012 - not much here. - Menzel,
2013 - Langford - Cripps

They have drafted up to 5 quality AFL players in one year compared to our 3 (arguably 3). They have drafted at least 29 players who are top quality AFL players over the last 13 years compared to our 20 and some of ours are very speculative. They have generally had lower picks than us as well. The quality between their players and ours are worlds apart. They built one of the best midfields in two years (Hodge, Mitchell, Sewell, Osbourne). They solved their key forward issues in one. They then filled in the gaps with real quality. No surprise they won in 2008 and have turned back up soon after. You don't win a flag drafting one or two good to ok players a year, they need to come in bunches and they need to be very bloody good. Something we've never done.

There's no question why Hawthorn are winning flags and we can't make finals. It's not the coach. Yes the coach contributes but the drafting is worlds apart. There is no question why we tried to poach Hawthorn's recruiter, who wouldn't!

They draft quality AFL players in hordes. They trade a lot of young players, they are very quick to identify if young guys will make it or not and trade them off before other clubs realise they aren't much good. Go see for yourself, they delist and trade many players before their first and second contract. They are very active traders and have been very active in the free agency now they are up there. We've only started doing this since Malthouse/Mckay/Rogers have been in charge but I don't think we have started drafting like this yet.

If you want to become Hawthorn, you need to go to the draft and it needs to look like this.

Hawthorn were lucky they picked a guy as coach who was a good judge of young players and able to keep the list turning over (we didn't have that with Ratten). We currently have that. Don't mess with the coach. Mess with the recruiters. It's a wonder we aren't bottom 4, it really is, i think the reason we aren't is because what Mick, McKay and Rogers have done recently and really good coaching and defensive football.
 
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