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Don't confuse strength with marking technique. The examples you're citing are strength related, not technique related, IMO.
MVP Tommy Boyd - The Grand Final Enigma
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He really has no issue getting to the right spots and holding his ground.
Some Idiot
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Why do we sometimes see young players with little strength who are elite overhead then?
When Fyfe was a 70kg 18 year old, he was still out marking everyone.
Boyd doesn't have those naturally sticky hands which is a bit disappointing.
Absolutely nothing to do with strength - go back about 15 pages and see screen caps I posted. Hands are in risky wrong position.
In those shots there are instances of no defensive pressure on arms or ball so not sure how related to strength.
3 times in the weekend dropped marks again above his head high where no defensive pressure on the spoil. It's all in the hands. Same bad trait existed in his junior videos.
Early this year Boyd seemed to have a fair bit of success hitting the ball straight up and grabbing the mark on the second attempt. It just looks to me like he is trying to do this all the time now. It might be a smart move until he gets stronger, but I worry that it might become a habit that's hard to break in the future if it isn't already.
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I disagree, he gets pushed around too easily still.
I disagree with both of these, but that's ok, we don't need to agree.
fooootylover
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Sort of agree with this.
Players like Fyfe, Hogan, Toby McLean, Casboult just seem to have those sticky hands.
I have very rarely seen Boyd clunk them in one solid grab, he even tends to fumble the ones he marks (when unopposed) His draft video shows this as well (if some one could post it that would be great).
In saying this I still think he will be a weapon.
- Nov 1, 2011
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Again, I think the size of his hands are a bit of an issue. When your hands are small, the ball is more likely to bounce off them. If you look at Fyfe's hands, they're huge. When the ball falls in his hands, they stick because there's no where else for them to go.
The obvious concern is that you can't make your hands bigger. However, I think it makes a bigger impact on confidence rather than actual ability to mark. The ball may never stick in Boyd's hands as they do with Fyfe, but it's not like he is dropping marks when he is taking them uncontested up the wing. It's when he is under the pump that his hands get stiff. Like Pann said, with more strength and confidence he will be able to keep his hands steady so that they are less likely to bounce off them.
At under 18 level, he was outmarking everyone because he wasn't concerned about everyone around him. The ball didn't fit into his hands perfectly but it didn't matter to him because his reach and strength made everything practically uncontested in his mind. Even in the AFL, when he is in the contest, he almost always gets his hands on the ball first. When he gets stronger and more confident, that mindset and confidence he had at u18 will return and he'll be doing the same thing at AFL level.
The obvious concern is that you can't make your hands bigger. However, I think it makes a bigger impact on confidence rather than actual ability to mark. The ball may never stick in Boyd's hands as they do with Fyfe, but it's not like he is dropping marks when he is taking them uncontested up the wing. It's when he is under the pump that his hands get stiff. Like Pann said, with more strength and confidence he will be able to keep his hands steady so that they are less likely to bounce off them.
At under 18 level, he was outmarking everyone because he wasn't concerned about everyone around him. The ball didn't fit into his hands perfectly but it didn't matter to him because his reach and strength made everything practically uncontested in his mind. Even in the AFL, when he is in the contest, he almost always gets his hands on the ball first. When he gets stronger and more confident, that mindset and confidence he had at u18 will return and he'll be doing the same thing at AFL level.
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I'm not so sure I was taught to mark the ball with my hands at the side of the ball, I was always taught getting the 'W' behind the ball. Also the other day I was reading something about how hand grip strength relates to overall strength, the kid hasn't even seen the weights room since he got here and even though he's big he's really not that strong yet, as he gets stronger his grip should also strengthen and he should start holding a lot more marks.
I must admit his marking has been a little disappointing so far considering he was meant to be a gun contested mark, and to be honest he hasn't really shown much that screams once in a generation forward like we were all hoping for, but he will still be a gun forward and wouldn't be surprised for it to all click one day and then he becomes an absolute machine.
I must admit his marking has been a little disappointing so far considering he was meant to be a gun contested mark, and to be honest he hasn't really shown much that screams once in a generation forward like we were all hoping for, but he will still be a gun forward and wouldn't be surprised for it to all click one day and then he becomes an absolute machine.
maddog37
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It's all about confidence with Tom.
- Oct 12, 2012
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Not sure his hands are really that small... A bit small for a guy of his size maybe but not THAT small...
- Nov 1, 2011
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They're small for his size, but I don't think they're small for the average human. I know people who reckon he has 'comically small' hands, but yes, it's more to do with the fact that he is a 2m tall monter.
I'm not sure what you mean be "THAT" small. He'd be able to take one grab marks better if his hands were bigger, but as I said, it's not so small that he can't take a mark uncontested. It is small enough though that he can't take it as strongly as you might like for someone of his size when he is under pressure.
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His hand size has no bearing whatsoever on marking ability. His hands wouldn't be any smaller than Dickson or McLeans and yet they have glue like hands.
It's all about hand positioning, concentration and not worrying about whats going on around you. Also boydy is limiting his chances by A) not getting to contests enough and getting knocked off the ball.
All with time, experience and more preseasons and this will get better and better.
- Nov 1, 2011
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To say it has absolutely no bearing is naive. To say it is not the main concern and can be partially remedied with technique though is fair. I'm only bringing up a factor that I know some people in recruitment have concerns over (not Boyd specifically but in general).
I know what you are trying to say, but Dickson and McLean aren't the best examples to use. Given their role, they won't be under the physical pressure that Boyd is under when going for a mark. Also, I wouldn't say Dickson's hands are like glue, though McLeans are.
Don't get me wrong, technique is the more important factor and it can help overcome most of the deficiency, but it doesn't mean hand size is completely irrelevant. If he had larger and stronger hands, his poor technique would not cause him to drop so many marks. Big hands + poor technique is still better than small hands + poor technique.
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- Nov 1, 2011
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I had a feeling some people might not take this seriously because it seems a bit obscure, but it is genuinely a thing that is talked about nowadays at clubs.
I was concerned for a few weeks there but now I'm not at all. Guys a good footballer inherently. That won't change. Being tired and having hard hands on occasion won't change that he knows how to play the key forward role and he will be the biggest forward target in the game for 10 years. Once in a generation? Who cares, the guy doesn't split packs, he IS packs. You take Redpath out and put a one year older Toyd into our forward line and it's one of the most devastating forward lines in the game
Tom's hands are small I know
But they're not yours they are his own
In the end, only clunkers matters....
In principle Boyd appears to have a solid marking technique. He leaps reasonably well, reaches with straight arms to the highest point of the ball, fingers outstretched. All sounds really good right? What defender will be able to go with him in the air without chopping his arms and giving away a free kick? Sounds excellent in theory.
The reality however is a little different and it appears to me that he recieved some misguided coaching advice as a junior in an attempt to maximise the height at which he marked the ball and further optimise his already natural physical advantages.
The following technical changes will reduce his marking reach slightly, but increase the effectiveness of his marking.
Boyds marking problem can be easily fixed. The problem with attempting to mark the ball with arms straightened at the elbow is that forces become concentrated through the elbow rather than through the muscles in the upper arm, shoulders and pecs. And this can be easily demonstrated to the reader. Hold one arm above your head straightened at the elbow with a clenched fist. With your opposite arm push downward on the straightened arm and feel how the force distributes through the elbow into the shoulder. Now try the same exercised but with the arm bent slightly at the elbow on about a 15-20 degree angle. Feel how much stronger the arm is, how much better the muscles are engaged with the joints. The elbow and shoulder in this example acts like a shock absorber allowing the force to be distributed through the muscles.
It is the same concept for Boyds straightened fingers. The joints being too straight don't have any give when in contact with the ball. Boyds hands may be slightly small in proportion to the rest of his frame but I'd wager they would be larger than the average male and sufficiently sized to not adversely impact his marking. For optimal marking technique he needs to curl his fingers slightly. Some one up thread mentioned the W W hand positioning and are correct. This means that the thumbs are close or even touching slightly. The other fingers curled slightly and spread. This technique allows the palm and thumbs to act as the breaks stopping momentum of the ball and the other fingers to wrap around it resulting in the ole fashioned clunk.
TLDR
1) Boy'ds arms are too straight. Needs to bend at the elbow.
2) Boyd's fingers are too straight. Needs to curl slightly.
3) Boyd's disproportionate hand size is a negligible factor.
4) The W W hand position relative to othe ball is the most effective.
5) I aknowledge that these technical changes will slightly reduce his reach but contend that the improvements to his marking effectiveness outweighs that.
The reality however is a little different and it appears to me that he recieved some misguided coaching advice as a junior in an attempt to maximise the height at which he marked the ball and further optimise his already natural physical advantages.
The following technical changes will reduce his marking reach slightly, but increase the effectiveness of his marking.
Boyds marking problem can be easily fixed. The problem with attempting to mark the ball with arms straightened at the elbow is that forces become concentrated through the elbow rather than through the muscles in the upper arm, shoulders and pecs. And this can be easily demonstrated to the reader. Hold one arm above your head straightened at the elbow with a clenched fist. With your opposite arm push downward on the straightened arm and feel how the force distributes through the elbow into the shoulder. Now try the same exercised but with the arm bent slightly at the elbow on about a 15-20 degree angle. Feel how much stronger the arm is, how much better the muscles are engaged with the joints. The elbow and shoulder in this example acts like a shock absorber allowing the force to be distributed through the muscles.
It is the same concept for Boyds straightened fingers. The joints being too straight don't have any give when in contact with the ball. Boyds hands may be slightly small in proportion to the rest of his frame but I'd wager they would be larger than the average male and sufficiently sized to not adversely impact his marking. For optimal marking technique he needs to curl his fingers slightly. Some one up thread mentioned the W W hand positioning and are correct. This means that the thumbs are close or even touching slightly. The other fingers curled slightly and spread. This technique allows the palm and thumbs to act as the breaks stopping momentum of the ball and the other fingers to wrap around it resulting in the ole fashioned clunk.
TLDR
1) Boy'ds arms are too straight. Needs to bend at the elbow.
2) Boyd's fingers are too straight. Needs to curl slightly.
3) Boyd's disproportionate hand size is a negligible factor.
4) The W W hand position relative to othe ball is the most effective.
5) I aknowledge that these technical changes will slightly reduce his reach but contend that the improvements to his marking effectiveness outweighs that.
- Oct 9, 2014
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Another I have noticed is that he tries to mark with his arms straight above his head. This makes it easier to spoil without giving away a free compared to making at a 70-80 degree angle. Slightly more forward and the defender has to get around his body to make the spoil without chopping the arms/getting over his shoulder
Don't confuse size with strength.
Agree with this, also with arms angled slightly forward and the pec muscles are more strongly engaged.
- Sep 4, 2014
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They test hand span at the combine, so it would have some importance. His hand span was in the bottom 16% of his draft year for the record, so the size of his hands are well below the average footballer. Not concerned though, once he builds confidence he will clunk them consistently like he was doing in the U18's.
is that just generally or compared to someone who is 200cm tall.
Didn't stop him at junior level now and i don't believe its stopping him now either. Its a mixture of technique, body strength (lets face it he hasn't done any weights this year and he would be/is getting outbodied by players 10kgs lighter than him) and confidence.
