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The Finger

Premiership Player
Sep 28, 2010
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Upwey
AFL Club
Melbourne
Whats peoples thoughts on the system in place for new umpires? At the moment they wear a green shirt and run with a senior umpire which in theory is a excellent idea. The issue I have is that the senior umpire wont over rule the green shirt umpire. Surely this is a must so the game continues to run as smoothly as possible.
 
they have a similar sort of system 'umpire mentors' for junior umpires in their first season in hockey in WA at least and it works quite well as long as the experienced person isnt a jerk or overly controlling.
The mentor does not really have power to overrule their umpire, but if their umpire is unsure they are there for support and assistance
 
lucky, when I lived in Sydney junior football was umpired by generally a green shirt umpire in the lower ages, and it was only a 1 umpire system. Wasn't until about u14s/u15s where we got senior umpires.
 

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That's a great system, a junior umpire with a senior umpire.

Obviously there will be mistakes but if the end result is better umpires then it will be worth it.

If the senior umpire is constantly pulling rank and over-ruling the youngster would lose confidence I reckon. Would start deferring to the older guy and almost looking to see what decision he wants him to make instead of calling it as he sees it. Young umpires have to make decisions and have the support network there to give them feedback at each break. That's the only way they will improve.

Sucks for the players to have a novice stuffing things up but surely this is only happening in junior footy? You wouldn't have a young kid umpiring for the first time doing adults footy? Who cares if there are a few umpiring bloopers in junior football.
 
The Finger said:
Whats peoples thoughts on the system in place for new umpires? At the moment they wear a green shirt and run with a senior umpire which in theory is a excellent idea. The issue I have is that the senior umpire wont over rule the green shirt umpire. Surely this is a must so the game continues to run as smoothly as possible.
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not a good idea. the afl is not the place to teach umpires. each umpire must be on equal level. what the umpiring department needs is a complete overhaul. sweep clean what they got now and put a 100% new umpiring standard. new coaches, new advisors ,new everything. what we have now is complete chaos. no-one has any respect for umpires because nothing is consistent. i've never seen such inconclusive umpiring ever. geishan has had a enough of a run. a major failure. a new regime needs to be brought in across the board.
 
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Drugs Are Bad Mackay? said:
That's a great system, a junior umpire with a senior umpire.

Obviously there will be mistakes but if the end result is better umpires then it will be worth it.

If the senior umpire is constantly pulling rank and over-ruling the youngster would lose confidence I reckon. Would start deferring to the older guy and almost looking to see what decision he wants him to make instead of calling it as he sees it. Young umpires have to make decisions and have the support network there to give them feedback at each break. That's the only way they will improve.

Sucks for the players to have a novice stuffing things up but surely this is only happening in junior footy? You wouldn't have a young kid umpiring for the first time doing adults footy? Who cares if there are a few umpiring bloopers in junior football.
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So 36 junior players have their game ruined for the benefit of the umpire?


The correct decison should be payed when ever it can.
 
Drugs Are Bad Mackay? said:
What are the players skills like in junior footy? I'm sure they make a heap of mistakes and the game survives.
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That poor excuse is ridiculous. If players had the chance to take a poor kick back they would. Senior umpires should pay frees if they are there and are seen.
These umpires do Under 18 and Reserve Grade football.
 
The Finger said:
They dont have to be kid umpires all new umpires wear a green shirt. They run with a senior umpire.
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In our competitions in Perth it would be unusual for a first year umpire to umpire senior football, and even older junior football unless they were pretty good. The mentor system is good and works. It won't work if the mentor over-rules the first year umpire. His (or her) job is to advise how to run the game, give advice at the breaks and give him/her confidence and protection from spectators, managers and coaches who think they know better (and rarely do).
 

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The great attribute of our game is the rules are interpretive. If a player has had prior opportunity and barges through a pack and gets caught but also there is slight head high contact then which free should be paid? If a junior ump pays holding the ball and (according to The Finger) then the senior ump should overrule this and pay "too high"??? What about deliberate OOB - very open to interpretation. There is going to be a hell of a lot of confusion and dead time with all these over-rules.

The role of the second and third ump is to pay any frees that the ump in control misses or if he thinks Ump in control is unsighted then pay what has been missed. Same goes for the Mentoring Ump. What the mentor ump will do in the breaks is discuss any dubious frees and ask the junior ump if he thinks he got it right or if he would change the free given the time over. Its called positive reinforcement and is the only way to teach umpiring (or any other discipline for that matter)

If I were umpiring and had ten out of fifteen decisions that I paid in the game over-ruled I know I would get disillusioned in my own abilities real quick and would not be back for more in a hurry.
 
All this year I've been running games with inexperienced umpires in a mentoring role (over 500 games myself). The way I handle it is pretty much as Jake calls it. I don't go over-ruling decisions but at each break I do emphasise any trends or tips with positioning. It's all about being fresh in the mind and it's more benefit talking about something 5 minutes after it happened rather than the following Wed night. It's not all about the free kicks though - even during a quarter I'll be calling out to the umpire to run down and setup the mark if they've forgotten - or other positioning tips. It's also about being a role model and setting an example of how to conduct yourself before, during and after a match.
 
Seems like an OK system for young umpires though not sure how much I would like it myself.

I was a soccer referee for about 10 years (before I decided that soccer is a crap game and that footy is better) and there is no such system in soccer. You just start off refereeing younger kids games and have a mentor there on the sidelines for support and to discuss stuff before the game, at half time and at the end. Sure we make plenty of mistakes, but we learn from them. I learned fast and was already referring senior games when I was a little 16 year old.

I'd have an issue with it if the mentor was overruling the young umpire. I know I would have felt like a fool if my decisions were being changed and it would just feel like an undermining of the umpires authority in front of the players.

I wouldn't mind umpiring footy. I think about it every now and then but have never got around to looking into it properly.
 
Philsta said:
Seems like an OK system for young umpires though not sure how much I would like it myself.

I was a soccer referee for about 10 years (before I decided that soccer is a crap game and that footy is better) and there is no such system in soccer. You just start off refereeing younger kids games and have a mentor there on the sidelines for support and to discuss stuff before the game, at half time and at the end. Sure we make plenty of mistakes, but we learn from them. I learned fast and was already referring senior games when I was a little 16 year old.

I'd have an issue with it if the mentor was overruling the young umpire. I know I would have felt like a fool if my decisions were being changed and it would just feel like an undermining of the umpires authority in front of the players.

I wouldn't mind umpiring footy. I think about it every now and then but have never got around to looking into it properly.
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You're a lucky s.o.b., I did soccer refereeing for two years, three years ago (half-way ends to both seasons with knee and hip problems) and it wasn't until the second season that I had my first referee's assessor even speak to me! Thrown way the hell on the deep end, haha...
 
I agree with jake_the_peg, the rules are incredibly interpretive. I have been umpiring Aussie Rules for the past 24 years (with a couple of breaks throughout), and the only way to 'train' a new umpire is on field game experience with a mentor giving advice during the breaks and after the game. I would much rather be running a game with a 'green shirt' who, lets face it, will possibly make a mistake here and there, than run a game with what is known as a 'Club Umpire' who is a member of a club who puts their hand up to fill in.

At least a green shirt is intent in listening and learning, where as I have found that many club umpires (I don't want to generalise but I am just going by my personal experience this year), just aren't interested in getting better or working with you as a team which is so necessary. In the league I umpire in, many games this year were umpired by two club umpires as there just aren't enough umpires on the list to fill games. In my opinion that is far more unfair on the game and the players than having a rookie umpire making a few mistakes but improving because they want to learn.

It surprises me that we have such a problem with finding umpires.... the pay is good; we even get super and work cover these days. So when you see a guy who is out there doing his best to learn, how about giving him a break. We lose most new guys because people watching the games give them such a hard time that they lose heart from the abuse. Let's support green shirts because without umpires we don't have a game........
 
The Finger said:
Whats peoples thoughts on the system in place for new umpires? At the moment they wear a green shirt and run with a senior umpire which in theory is a excellent idea. The issue I have is that the senior umpire wont over rule the green shirt umpire. Surely this is a must so the game continues to run as smoothly as possible.
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It's a great idea. It tells everyone that the umpire is learning the ropes.
Some of you out there who might think that this is a crazy idea, you learned how to drive with one of your parents. You were taught how to do your job by somebody high up at your workplace. Did you cop much rubbish from others?
Any young person who is learning the ropes of umpiring needs to have a green shirt. With that green shirt on and the new guy or girl doing their job maybe some of you need to take your colourful glasses off and pay a bit of respect to what these people are doing.
Who knows your son or daughter might want to take up umpiring at some point and you need to realise that it's all about having a go and learning the caper.
Old Man Umpire said:
I agree with jake_the_peg, the rules are incredibly interpretive. I have been umpiring Aussie Rules for the past 24 years (with a couple of breaks throughout), and the only way to 'train' a new umpire is on field game experience with a mentor giving advice during the breaks and after the game. I would much rather be running a game with a 'green shirt' who, lets face it, will possibly make a mistake here and there, than run a game with what is known as a 'Club Umpire' who is a member of a club who puts their hand up to fill in.

At least a green shirt is intent in listening and learning, where as I have found that many club umpires (I don't want to generalise but I am just going by my personal experience this year), just aren't interested in getting better or working with you as a team which is so necessary. In the league I umpire in, many games this year were umpired by two club umpires as there just aren't enough umpires on the list to fill games. In my opinion that is far more unfair on the game and the players than having a rookie umpire making a few mistakes but improving because they want to learn.

It surprises me that we have such a problem with finding umpires.... the pay is good; we even get super and work cover these days. So when you see a guy who is out there doing his best to learn, how about giving him a break. We lose most new guys because people watching the games give them such a hard time that they lose heart from the abuse. Let's support green shirts because without umpires we don't have a game........
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It's all about the spectators who abuse the umpires. I don't know if you have ever umpired a junior game before but you do get a lot of parents doing the ugly parent syndrome that actually costs games umpires.
 
Oneiros said:
Put my name in with the local district to look into goal umpiring in the juniors next year. Will see how it pans out!
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You would be better off signing up as a goal umpire with your local umpiring association. You will learn a lot.
Many people don't know that there's a little more to goal umpiring than just standing there.
 
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