Nick Suban - When?

[Jezzitizle]

clogged yes this thread has run it's course.

However, I'm going to leave it open while the discussion is still on topic. Going to lock it if it keeps on getting bumped every good/bad game of his.

One of the only threads where people actually stick to talking about football. Why on earth would you want to close it? Nothing wrong with differences of opinion, in fact its great.. not having a go at you just saying I dont think these threads should get closed

 

[Mr Peabody]

He's lucky he's even able to play this weekend. That stupid stunt was one of the dumbest things I've ever seen a Freo player do.

Did you ever see the Prince of Pockets?

Loved him mind you and I could never bring myself to describe his plays as stupid nor dumb. Perhaps farcical and even that doesn't feel right but definitely up there for being out there.

Matt Price(RIP) put it most beautifully in describing how "Chisholm could pluck disaster from the jaws of triumph and Chisholm once said 'Gerard (Neesham) told me, you made four mistakes this week, let's try to make it two next week'. Alas, the Prince never quite managed to reach his target."

 

[andrew99]

Which you chose to elaborate upon as a means of avoiding the major premise, being that the best teams have at least one left foot midfielder.

Sorry Dormammu, but you seriously can't be trying to argue that Suban deserves a spot in the team because he has a left foot? What next, are we going to choose players based on hair colour, or the fact they have dimples? There's no concrete functional advantage to having a left foot, certainly not to the extent that per se is a compelling reason to merit inclusion in the team.

Now you've said that Suban is a "role player".Can you define his role for us?

Can anyone here define his role for us?

I mean we keep hearing the fact he is a "role player" regurgitated ad nauseam, well personally I can't see any distinct role he fills for the team. And that is the purpose of a role player, is it not - to fill a role that otherwise can not be filled ? If he earns the tag of 'role player' simply for having a left foot, as Dormammu suggested, then I think that is a cynical use of the term at best and a disservice to the fidelity of our team selection process if indeed that is the reason for his selection, which I doubt it is.

Actually believe it was Lyon who originally coined the term 'role player', or a least introduced it to the mainstream football vernacular: see for example Brett Peake at St kilda who provided them with pace in an otherwise slow team. The key criteria for being a role player being the delivery of a distinct capability be it speed, or size or athleticism etc. I don't see how Suban can meet this definition: he is not the toughest or the strongest, or the best in any football performance metric you can think of. Anything Suban can do we have a player who can do better.

Why can't we just call Suban a below average player and leave it at that? Stop searching for creative reasons to defend Suban's performances!

 

[TheInjuryFactory]

Can anyone here define his role for us?

Suban is playing a role, one which neither Weller nor Blakely are equipped to. He is playing as a big bodied, hard edged inside mid who is accountable at times (On Friday it was to Cotchin at centre bounces I noticed at one point) throwing his body around and allowing Fyfe, Mundy et al to have a less impeded run at clearances, allowing them to take Sandi's taps on the move. He is also utilising his long penetrating kicks for metres gained. He has had a terrible year in front of goals, that is where he is letting us down, I will give you that. However, I don't think you can drop him for that, as he is playing a great role for the team at the minute, an under-appreciated, unheralded role. Its not all about total possies.

Dont mean to be a w***er and quote myself, but I posted this in another thread yet I feel it supports the argument Dormammu has been making here. Not trying to get in the middle of this s**t fight, but if people can't (won't) see the role he is playing it makes it difficult to entertain their opinions on his performance. Forget the person and stats, focus on the role. That is why he keeps getting a game. People may not think he is performing the role as good as others may, but unfortunately the Wellers and Blakely's aren't going to fulfil this role either. The only other player IMO on our list that could reasonably fulfil the role who is outside the team currently is MDB, and he is a poor kick that lacks the necessary penetration for the job. Perhaps Clancee Pearce is one in the team that can, although I suspect our game plan at the moment hinges on both of them performing a similar role. Considering we have gone more offensive in our approach it seems these two are the lingering relics of the ultra defensive RTB gameplan. Ross will never go all out offence so this is his safety net.

I think this thread has run its course.

I agree with you clogged, this is devolving into a s**t fight.


Unnecessary levels of spite towards Subes in here and those who don't feel as strongly shouldn't have to constantly defend the bloke because he hasn't fulfilled the expectations no one really ever had for him.

 

[clogged]

I am well aware of what his role is, and I don't really care. Role players are expendable and the roles they play are up for debate.

De Boer and Crowley had roles last year. They're no longer in the side, and the side doesn't miss them. Suban has a role. Both he and his role can be replaced.

 

[TheInjuryFactory]

That's more a slight on RTB and his game plan than Suban. Maybe someone should start up a thread chastising RTB's game plan.

Perhaps that's a more appropriate thread for those determined to vent their spleens in?

 

[Righteo]

I'm in agreement with Seppo and I believe Stronzo as well, thread has merit and therefore remains open. Honestly TheInjuryFactory I'm not really seeing the 'spite' you're claiming is infesting this thread. Mostly been pretty reasonable discussion as far as I can see.

Blame democracy if you want

 

[clogged]

That's more a slight on RTB and his game plan than Suban. Maybe someone should start up a thread chastising RTB's game plan.

Perhaps that's a more appropriate thread for those determined to vent their spleens in?

How is it a slight on Lyon? We all know what he rates as fundamentals to get a start in his sides - good base fitness and adherence to the game plan. Suban does what he is employed to do effectively and it works the vast majority of the time. That's the least you can ask for.

His only issue is that often that doesn't work in finals. A dogged role player forgets his task in a GF. An inconsistent fringe player goes missing. Look at Gary Rohan last year. Inevitably finals become one vs one battles where talent trumps structure.

Freo have arguably improved this year because he has whittled down the number of one dimensional role players to zero (I wouldn't even consider Suban that). But is it still as talented a best 22 as it could be? Will it be more talented than other sides it must face in the top four?

 

[TheInjuryFactory]

I'm in agreement with Seppo and I believe Stronzo as well, thread has merit and therefore remains open. Honestly TheInjuryFactory I'm not really seeing the 'spite' you're claiming is infesting this thread. Mostly been pretty reasonable discussion as far as I can see.

Banter on the previous page isn't exactly friendly is it?

EDIT: Never said spite was infesting the thread. I said there were unnecessary levels of spite towards Suban.

 

[TheInjuryFactory]

How is it a slight on Lyon? We all know what he rates as fundamentals to get a start in his sides - good base fitness and adherence to the game plan. Suban does what he is employed to do effectively and it works the vast majority of the time. That's the least you can ask for.

His only issue is that often that doesn't work in finals. A dogged role player forgets his task in a GF. An inconsistent fringe player goes missing. Look at Gary Rohan last year. Inevitably finals become one vs one battles where talent trumps structure.

Freo have arguably improved this year because he has whittled down the number of one dimensional role players to zero (I wouldn't even consider Suban that). But is it still as talented a best 22 as it could be? Will it be more talented than other sides it must face in the top four?

RTb clearly has Suban playing a role, one you are aware he has him playing. You believe the role shouldn't exist, how is that Suban's problem?

At this stage, I would say sitting at 9-1, the game plan seems to be working.

Previous poster asked if anybody could define his role, I would have thought it was as clear as mud.

 

[clogged]

RTb clearly has Suban playing a role, one you are aware he has him playing. You believe the role shouldn't exist, how is that Suban's problem?

What does Suban's role have to do with this thread? It's about Suban's ability as a player, which many believed was still to reach its peak (often predicted to be Hodge level or captaincy). Clearly not the case.

 

[TheInjuryFactory]

What does Suban's role have to do with this thread? It's about Suban's ability as a player, which many believed was still to reach its peak (often predicted to be Hodge level or captaincy). Clearly not the case.

He has improved this year, you yourself agreed with this. How do you know he won't improve further next year?

His role is relevant because those in the negative continually promote the use of out of context stats as an indicator of his ability. I argue that he is playing a role that limits his ability to accumulate the numbers of others in our midfield. Entirely relevant to the discussion of where he is at.

Your initial expectations of him stated in the OP are wildly out of reach for the majority of AFL players, so the answer to when will he become the next Luke Hodge or be as good as the golden generation at Geelong, well the answer is never. How you expected a bloke picked up in the 2nd round of an average draft to achieve the same levels as the No. 1 pick in the "superdraft" is beyond me. It happens sure but how can you rate him as a failure for not?

However, he is certainly having a good year (arguably his best) in the best team in the comp, and is yet to miss a game. Clearly enough people rate him as good enough to maintain his spot in our best 22 when we are 100% fit and available. Therefore, he is best 22 and I think that is as good as we can expect the bloke to be.

 

[TheInjuryFactory]

Blame democracy if you want

I know you and I disagree on selection matters mate but that's a tad unnecessary...

 

[clogged]

He has improved this year, you yourself agreed with this. How do you know he won't improve further next year?

Players don't tend to improve much after 100 games.

Your initial expectations of him stated in the OP are wildly out of reach for the majority of AFL players, so the answer to when will he become the next Luke Hodge or be as good as the golden generation at Geelong, well the answer is never. How you expected a bloke picked up in the 2nd round of an average draft to achieve the same levels as the No. 1 pick in the "superdraft" is beyond me. It happens sure but how can you rate him as a failure for not?

Since when were they my expectations of him?

 

[Righteo]

I know you and I disagree on selection matters mate but that's a tad unnecessary...

You're easily offended aren't you? All the mods are in favour of the thread staying open, it was a reasonable comment. I can't help it if you chose to take it as an insult.

 

[TheInjuryFactory]

You're easily offended aren't you? All the mods are in favour of the thread staying open, it was a reasonable comment. I can't help it if you chose to take it as an insult.

Never blamed anybody, not sure why you would say that. Certainly not offended. All good.

Just said I agreed with clogged. Not against it staying open, certainly not questioning the mods.

 

[TheInjuryFactory]

Players don't tend to improve much after 100 games.

That's rubbish. Plenty of players improve between 100-200 games. I would expect Suban to make 200 personally.

 

[clogged]

That's rubbish. Plenty of players improve between 100-200 games. I would expect Suban to make 200 personally.

Which ones?

Most players reach their level by six-seven seasons or around 100 games.

Someone like Mundy seemed to take ages to go from HBF to midfielder, but he did that in as many seasons as Suban has been with Freo.

 

[TheInjuryFactory]

It is generally acknowledged players peak around 28.

 

[clogged]

It is generally acknowledged players peak around 28.

Really? Most Brownlow winners in history are aged under 25.

 

[manpurple]

I am not convinced about him making 200. Maybe he will prove me wrong but Suban in my mind is one of the 14/30 players on the list. Doesn't make the first chosen 14 not in the bottom 14 either. Suban will be there to help us keep the team moving along. I'm not convinced his role is vital or that he is the best at the role. But there is nobody "obviously" better to take his spot so he stays. For me this means that my expectations are lowered and i expect good and bad weeks. I would prefer tosee others in the side ahead of him but I'll say he has improved over last year. Still he is middle of the pack for mine.

 

[TheInjuryFactory]

Really? Most Brownlow winners in history are aged under 25.

very small sample size, Brownlow winners. Not really relevant to 99% of AFL players.

 

[clogged]

very small sample size, Brownlow winners. Not really relevant to 99% of AFL players.

Sure it is. Most players reach their level by around 23, and improve marginally thereafter. A player aged 25 or older is unlikely to get remarkably better. Even late bloomers at Freo like Sandilands or Mundy came of age at around 25.

There's very little evidence to suggest that players continue to make leaps and bounds in terms of development after a given number of years in the system.

 

[TheInjuryFactory]

Sure it is. Most players reach their level by around 23, and improve marginally thereafter. A player aged 25 or older is unlikely to get remarkably better. Even late bloomers at Freo like Sandilands or Mundy came of age at around 25.

There's very little evidence to suggest that players continue to make leaps and bounds in terms of development after a given number of years in the system.

I don't necessarily disagree with you. However it is a commonly held belief that AFL players peak around 27-28 years of age. That's not to say that the improvement between 25-28 is drastic, but they generally peak around 28.

Certainly not using this as the gospel but I did find an interesting article on this topic, guys appear to have crunched the numbers. More posting for interest than as a statement of fact.

http://hurlingpeoplenow.tumblr.com/post/115245604892/age-and-peak-output-in-afl-players

Graph from the above article showing improvement in AFL players over time below...

 

[darkshines]

Strange he was made sub when he is widely accepted as the best wet tracker in the 22