Universal Love Not Boo-ing Goodes

[SpeciousArgument]

I reckon one of the biggest factors here is once the notion of racism starts getting bandied around by the media, regardless of how loosely the issue actually does correlate racism , people - and particularly professional organisations - s**t their dacks and feel compelled to speak out against it, for fear of being labelled apathetic towards the cause. It doesn't matter whether they believe the issue does actually relate to racism (which I reckon most of them still probably don't), once it's tarred with that brush, they really have no choice.

So the AFL and the clubs come out and actively denounce racism, which validates the loosely based association initiated by the media to start with, and suddenly fiction becomes fact and it snowballs from there.

So I'm now in the completely ridiculous f'ing position where if I want to complain about how Adam Goodes as a footballer, or Adam Goodes as an Australian of the Year, I'm now effectively being defined by most professional organisations associated with this issue, as a racist (or at least being on the 'racist' side of the debate).

All of this in spite of the fact that I am a mature, educated man who genuinely detests racism in the many forms it can take.

I'm rapidly coming to the opinion that I'm the victim out of all of this.

My problem with this issue in a nutshell.

 

[headache1]

Correct. He made the very reasonable, respectful speech that you and I have seen and then apparently later on he made the divisive, Australia-hating speech that seemingly everyone else has seen.

I am beginning to wonder if people have even seen Adam's AOTY acceptance speech, or if they've just been misinformed about the content of the speech, and are running with it? Perhaps I'm going deaf, but even that supposed transcript of the speech that Whately tweeted seems to be full of words that I can't hear him say? It is entirely possible for two people to analyse the same set of objective data and reach completely different conclusions. But in this case, I'm thinking that people are perhaps analysing two separate sets of data, thinking it's the same, and as such, are reaching conclusions that are worlds apart, and debating the issue from there. I'd suggest people actually watch his speech, and listen to what he says.

Edit - So apparently that transcript wasn't even regarding his speech, yet it was sent to me as such. So much misinformation. Now it's completely beyond me how that speech is being interpreted as divisive.

 

[sbenno]

Strawman.

Do as many war dances and throw as many imaginary spears as you want.

Then cop what comes back.

That's sport.

But what you seem to be advocating here is a one-way street. Crowds must sit in silence as opposition players throw imaginary spears at them.

And you wonder why there is division.

He did that once. One booing response at the time could maybe be considered reasonable, if you're even affected by it.

Continued booing is way out of proportion.

 

[FantasticShirt]

 

[Godallblighty]

So I'm now in the completely ridiculous f'ing position where if I want to complain about Adam Goodes as a footballer, or Adam Goodes as an Australian of the Year, I'm now effectively being defined by most professional organisations associated with this issue, as a racist (or at least being on the 'racist' side of the debate).

All of this in spite of the fact that I am a mature, educated man who genuinely detests racism in the many forms it can take.

I'm rapidly coming to the opinion that I'm the victim out of all of this.

As a mature, educated man who genuinely detests racism, maybe you can complain about Adam Goodes as a footballer, or Adam Goodes as an Australian of the Year, via some means other than the blunt instrument of mob booing?

You're a victim because you feel unjustly pressured not to boo? Come on.

 

[Mattrox]

You don't think is possible to make a collage of arse clowns that are calling everyone racist at the moment. Seriously that's not even remotely clever.

Not everyone is being called racist.

Here is a dot point of what is being said.

1)People with racial intolerance are booing Goodes. This can be shown because the people with racist attitudes are telling Goodes how to act like a good Indigeneous man.

2) Given the Booing has gone on a while and affect Goodes, as decent humans isn't about time we stop?

3) Given people with racist attitudes are booing, do we really want to be associated with them? Let's stop booing.



If YOU want to interpret that as "people are calling EVERY booer a racist" it says more about you than said arse clowns.

It's not meant to be clever, the loudest of voices against Goodes are white males who are allowed to express their opinions whilst shouting down Goodes' opinion and telling him he is not entitled to express his. It's actually quite pointed.

Anyway it seemed to rustle your jimmies, so perhaps some reflective thought about why your jimmies are rustled might help?

 

[Cleric]

Abbott removing funding from aboriginal communities because of their "life style choices".

Assuming everyone speaks English.

Not seeing aboriginal people represented in media and positions of power.

The difference in life expectancy and health outcomes between white and black Australians.

Would you like more examples of systematic racism?

Im going to need more examples because the ones you have given dont hold water.

Abbott removing funding from aboriginal communities because of their "life style choices".

Assuming everyone speaks English.

Not seeing aboriginal people represented in media and positions of power.

The difference in life expectancy and health outcomes between white and black Australians.

Would you like more examples of systematic racism?

I am going to need some more examples as the ones you have given dont hold water.
Re health outcomes.
Are you saying that Aboriginal people are discriminated against by the health system? Are you saying they are not allowed to go into hospitals, and if they are they are not given the same treatment and help by the doctors and nurses as they would give white people?
Are you saying that they are not given access to the same drugs as white people? Do ambulances not take them to hospital like they would me?
Are you saying their children are not given vaccinations like white children are? Are you saying the government is racist with the health system where aboriginal peoples lower life expectancy is a result of this?
Ill start with these questions first and then follow it up after your answer.

 

[Mattrox]

Why do they fine players for giving the bird to supporters?

The bird is short for Yuck Foo, which they are also not allowed to yell at fans because it is swearing.

 

[Cleric]

Dreadful post. Just dreadful.

What you are arguing is that it's bigotry to take positive steps to help improve the situation of a disadvantaged group simply because you've identified that they are, indeed, disadvantaged by society and, therefore, things need to change. Identifying disadvantage does NOT suggest any fault on the victim's part. Wanting to help a group who are, on average, far worse off than others in many ways does NOT suggest you think any less of that group. All it suggests is that you recognise an imbalance within society against a group and have a desire to fix such an injustice.

The entire goal is to make sure inequality and bigotry are stamped out. Inequality exists, and we can measure this in all kinds of ways. Redressing this imbalance requires action. Trying to represent positive actions (in this case something as simple as not booing) as racist is truly nauseating.

There is a difference between helping people out and not expecting them to be able to function the same as people from other races.
My point is that Aboriginal people are not lesser, not more, and they are just as responsible for their actions as anyone else.
They are just as capable as you or I.

 

[cmndstab]

Yes she is ffs.

The minute you treat one race different to another your a racist.
Simple.

I think you need to go and read up on what "racism" actually means. Assuming you actually want to have a proper debate here, that is. If you just want to just wave your arms around and make a scene, keep going I guess.

Hint: It doesn't mean "any treatment of two races as different."

So we're not allowed to not like a black person? Lol OK...

Not only did I not say that, I've said the exact opposite several times in this thread.

You're allowed to not like him, just like anyone else. Of course, if you dislike him - even if only in part - because of his exceedingly reasonable and intelligent views on racial discrimination that means your opinion is based on racism, but that's your right. You're allowed to hold racist views.

What is in question is how you go about displaying those views. It is not alright to harass someone because of your racist views. Choosing to do so anyway is racist.

The only grey area in this entire debate is about where the line is between booing in the theatre of sport because it's enjoyable, and displaying a level of malice and hatred tantamount to harassment. Given that the boos directed at Goodes are at the worst levels in AFL footy in recent memory, I think it's more than reasonable to conclude we're in the latter category.

And even if you wanted to argue that we weren't at that point, given that Goodes has requested that it stop, it means that continuing to do it pushes it firmly into the harassment category.


And even if you wanted to further argue that you're only continuing to boo him because you don't like him for reasons outside of race, the fact that the current level of booing started from a racist viewpoint means that choosing to continue them indicates tacit approval of that viewpoint.

 

[Big Gazoongas]

It's a sporting arena where people pay to watch competitors.

Your comparison is very poor.

When I go to watch any sport that is exactly what I want to do, watch people compete and watch my team win.

I don't go to the footy to get exposed to a individuals political agenda, that's not what I pay for. I pay to watch a sporting contest.

If you have an agenda take it elsewhere.

 

[ftmch]

As a mature, educated man who genuinely detests racism, maybe you can complain about Adam Goodes as a footballer, or Adam Goodes as an Australian of the Year, via some means other than the blunt instrument of mob booing?

You're a victim because you feel unjustly pressured not to boo? Come on.

I don't boo players when I'm at the footy, so it's not about that for me.

It's just the general notion that to criticise Adam Goodes in any capacity now negatively associates you with the racism debate, which is just wrong, and honestly, offensive.

 

[Cleric]

I think you need to go and read up on what "racism" actually means. Assuming you actually want to have a proper debate here, that is. If you just want to just wave your arms around and make a scene, keep going I guess.

Hint: It doesn't mean "any treatment of two races as different."

I think you are the one who really should go and read the definition of racism.
Smh

"the belief that all members of each race possess characteristics, abilities, or qualities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races."

You must be trolling.

 

[cmndstab]

There is a difference between helping people out and not expecting them to be able to function the same as people from other races.
My point is that Aboriginal people are not lesser, not more, and they are just as responsible for their actions as anyone else.
They are just as capable as you or I.

Look, that's the thing. They're not - because of the dreadful discrimination and harassment they have been subjected to over hundreds of years.

Obviously, at a potential level they're the same as any of us. But it's hard to argue they're equal when they live decades less than white Australians. Or that they're equal when they are routinely overlooked for work in favour of non-indigenous people no more qualified than them.

It is precisely the history of discrimination towards them that makes it important to afford them extra sensitivity in matters of race. That's not racism, and trying to pretend it is just belittles everyone involved.

Indigenous Australians are, on average, far more disadvantaged than their peers, and in large part because of the actions of our society. Having repressed, abused, and disadvantaged them for years, it is extremely disingenuous to now turn around and say "now that you're behind the eight ball by a massive amount, we'll treat you the same as everyone else, and if you can't do as well as us then it's your fault."

 

[Wood_Duck]

The bird is short for Yuck Foo, which they are also not allowed to yell at fans because it is swearing.

You dont reckon his war dance was Yuck Foo?

 

[Slippery Pete]

As a mature, educated man who genuinely detests racism, maybe you can complain about Adam Goodes as a footballer, or Adam Goodes as an Australian of the Year, via some means other than the blunt instrument of mob booing?

Chicken and egg? Or perhaps circular logic.

I think people who didn't like him did do this. Then they were accused of racism.

What's left? I'll just boo him. That can't be misconstrued...

Well, think again.

I hear what you're saying but I think the booing is the last bastion, not the first.

He'll be untouchable now, but it won't be because people have decided to like him. It'll be because they've been censored.

 

[Wood_Duck]

Not everyone is being called racist.

Did you expect me to keep reading after this?

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-ne...wans-boss-andrew-pridham-20150727-gilc0n.html

 

[Mattrox]

Why wasn't Andrew Jarman praised for doing something similar in 1996? Why was he sacked and never played for the club again?

I'm not sure this sort of sugar-coating helps the debate at all. The pro-Goodes people will list all the positive things he said about the incident with the Collingwood girl and Australia Day but they'll leave out the face of racism comment and the remember whose land you're on comments. And the anti-Goodes people do the opposite. They highlight the controversial things he did/said but leave out all his positive comments about Australia Day, his calls for education etc. Arguments seem to only be able to exist at the extreme ends. A bit like George Dubya's - you're either with us or you're with the terrorists.

Can you please find me the references where he said "remember whose land you are on"?
Is it a paraphrasing of "It is important to........ , because ...." or was it said like "Remember whose land you are on you ungrateful bastards"?

I've actually gone to the Utopia article and what Goodes says can be confronting but he isn't inciteful in the article. Bolt twists words in an attempt to deny historical events. Bolt is a "stolen generation denier". I won't invoke Godwins law but seriously...... Bolt uses the uncomfortable words Goodes writes to attack Goodes because of a refusal to accept that horrific event really did occur.

Goodes is Indigenous and has faced racial hatred, racial intolerance, racial insensitivity - all in the "racism" spectrum. He's pretty well placed to give his opinions. Others also have theirs, but in expressing theirs they attempt to discredit Goodes' opinion with half-truths, and contend that he should keep his opinion to himself.

 

[Wood_Duck]

Abbott removing funding from aboriginal communities because of their "life style choices".

Assuming everyone speaks English.

Not seeing aboriginal people represented in media and positions of power.

The difference in life expectancy and health outcomes between white and black Australians.

Would you like more examples of systematic racism?

You would have a point if they were the only underprivileged demographic being starved of funding and resources.

 

[Deaneus!]

2) Given the Booing has gone on a while and affected Milne, as decent humans isn't about time we stop?

He was found to have no case to answer from the 2004 assault until 2013, when it was reopened and he was fined with no conviction. Didn't stop anyone giving him a serve at every opportunity.

3) Given people with racist attitudes are booing, do we really want to be associated with them? Let's stop booing.

Finally a good reason not to boo.

 

[Dandy_GO]

You would have a point if they were the only underprivileged demographic being starved of funding and resources.

What the hell difference does that make?

 

[cmndstab]

Did you expect me to keep reading after this.

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-ne...wans-boss-andrew-pridham-20150727-gilc0n.html

Look, I get that this is a bit murky. But at this stage, continuing to join in the mass booing IS racist. Because it has reached the stage where Goodes has reasonably concluded that he is being heckled, in significant part, because of his views on race relations and his manner of expressing those views.

I understand the counter-arguments. I'll address them individually.

1) "So what, anyone can just decide something is racist and then we have to stop it?" No, obviously not. It's obviously a murky area. But in this case it's pretty clear-cut. The mass booing only started after he took a stance on a racial issue, and intensified whenever he took further stances. When it's that clear cut, it's completely reasonable for him to declare it is racist, and at that point, yes, choosing to continue it with the full knowledge of how he is taking it is also racist.

Obviously, you can't just come out and say "well he frowned at me so it's racist." There are levels of interpretation involved here that are difficult to define. One of the best things about this issue coming to a head is that intelligent people are thinking about where those levels lie.

2) "So anyone can just say that they find something offensive and I have to stop it?" Again, obviously not. This is another thing that is a matter of degrees. Goodes put up with the booing for a long time. Eventually it reached a level where it was beyond anything we'd seen in decades. That was too far. At that stage, it's reasonable for someone to say, hey, I've had enough. Give it a rest. And at that point, if people choose to keep going, they're making it clear that they fall into one of two camps. Either they're denying that person the right to not be harassed, or they're claiming that the person is being unreasonable by likening the treatment they're copping to harassment. You can have a debate about the latter camp if you like - although it'd be tough to argue it considering the booing is at unprecedented levels - but being in the former camp for whatever reason is not acceptable.

3) "But I'm booing him because I don't like him. It's not my fault that other people are booing him because they're racist!" I understand why people hold this view, but from Goodes' perspective, the various pockets of people booing just merge into one large mob. It's impossible to distinguish between them. By lending your voice to racially-motivated harassment, you are supporting it - and supporting racism is equivalent to being racist. The unfortunate reality is those people who are racist have made it impossible for other people to boo Goodes without being tarred with the same brush.

 

[baldandbroke]

When I go to watch any sport that is exactly what I want to do, watch people compete and watch my team win.

I don't go to the footy to get exposed to a individuals political agenda, that's not what I pay for. I pay to watch a sporting contest.

If you have an agenda take it elsewhere.

Well unfortunately BG, you don't get to decide what everyone else does - just because you want it a certain way OR because you pay to get in.

You will find other things in your life work the same way ... buying a newspaper might not mean you agree with all the articles, going to the movies might not mean you agree with the political pov in said movie, and there are many more I'm sure you can think of yourself.

One thing that you don't have to put up with in any of these examples is being personally abused, especially not to the extent that it is influencing your job and livelihood.

So FFS, just recognise that this example of booing has gone too far - and rally against it for the right reasons. All of the stuff about why people have an issue with it at the theoretical level are completely irrelevant. Accept that it is hurting Goodes, and get behind the good reasons to stop it.

How about this - say it out loud with me "I will not boo Adam Goodes, because I am not racist." (it does not follow that if you do boo him you are racist, in case anyone tries to jump to that stupid conclusion)

 

[Tex Support]

I never said it wasn't racist i have just always said with no proof of it being racist and so many other factors in play I just think its too simple to just call it racism and i feel its a conclusion too many have lept too too quickly. 5% of the crowd may have taken the opportunity to be racist. Nobody knows but the people who booed. Thats my point.

I guess you have to use your best judgement assessing this situation then, because there's no handy numerical evidence this break down. My judgement tells me things different to yours, which is fine, and I appreciate the debate.

True intention stuff aside, if you take everything there is to know about Adam Goodes and his timeline in footy, how/when/why it was deemed acceptable to ridicule him on-mass to a point where he's clearly distressed enough to maybe retire from the game?

Has that really happened purely because "he's a flog and a sook?" Please. We've had plenty of "flogs" come and go. None have contemplated leaves of absence/retirement based on mass taunting have they? What is it that Goodes has done that was so different from all of them to make us reject him in such a manner......

 

[Bosley]

I should do a straw poll of all the Aboriginals I pass on my walk as to whether they think Goodes should be booed or not.

I have a feeling none of them could care less about the Bondi billionaire's agenda.