Universal Love Not Boo-ing Goodes

Status
Not open for further replies.
Mar 7, 2012
17,526
15,046
AFL Club
Adelaide

He does not say "If you have ever booed Goodes you are racist".

You have to remember this is coming out after calls for it to stop. So if you continue to boo, knowing that people with racist attitudes are booing, you are making the deliberate decision to join those with racist attitudes. If you are not racist then you will have no problem with not booing and take a stand against racism.

I have no problem with the Swans taking a hard line against the boos which have subsequently turned into abuse.
 
Mar 7, 2012
17,526
15,046
AFL Club
Adelaide
I should do a straw poll of all the Aboriginals I pass on my walk as to whether they think Goodes should be booed or not.

I have a feeling none of them could care less about the Bondi billionaire's agenda.


You should. Report back.... and please tell me how many refer to him as the "Bondi Billionaire". Otherwise do not pretend to represent other people's views.
 
Aug 17, 2004
11,090
19,554
Adelaide
AFL Club
Adelaide
Other Teams
Sturt FC; Pittsburgh Steelers
I think you need to go and read up on what "racism" actually means. Assuming you actually want to have a proper debate here, that is. If you just want to just wave your arms around and make a scene, keep going I guess.

Hint: It doesn't mean "any treatment of two races as different."



Not only did I not say that, I've said the exact opposite several times in this thread.

You're allowed to not like him, just like anyone else. Of course, if you dislike him - even if only in part - because of his exceedingly reasonable and intelligent views on racial discrimination that means your opinion is based on racism, but that's your right. You're allowed to hold racist views.

What is in question is how you go about displaying those views. It is not alright to harass someone because of your racist views. Choosing to do so anyway is racist.

The only grey area in this entire debate is about where the line is between booing in the theatre of sport because it's enjoyable, and displaying a level of malice and hatred tantamount to harassment. Given that the boos directed at Goodes are at the worst levels in AFL footy in recent memory, I think it's more than reasonable to conclude we're in the latter category.

And even if you wanted to argue that we weren't at that point, given that Goodes has requested that it stop, it means that continuing to do it pushes it firmly into the harassment category.


And even if you wanted to further argue that you're only continuing to boo him because you don't like him for reasons outside of race, the fact that the current level of booing started from a racist viewpoint means that choosing to continue them indicates tacit approval of that viewpoint.
Lol that's quite a few assumptions you've made there. The one I liked most is:

"the fact that the current level of booing started from a racist viewpoint".
 
Aug 12, 2004
10,837
10,642
Not in Adelaide
AFL Club
Adelaide
Other Teams
CDFC, Arsenal
Look, I get that this is a bit murky. But at this stage, continuing to join in the mass booing IS racist. Because it has reached the stage where Goodes has reasonably concluded that he is being heckled, in significant part, because of his views on race relations and his manner of expressing those views.

I understand the counter-arguments. I'll address them individually.

1) "So what, anyone can just decide something is racist and then we have to stop it?" No, obviously not. It's obviously a murky area. But in this case it's pretty clear-cut. The mass booing only started after he took a stance on a racial issue, and intensified whenever he took further stances. When it's that clear cut, it's completely reasonable for him to declare it is racist, and at that point, yes, choosing to continue it with the full knowledge of how he is taking it is also racist.

Obviously, you can't just come out and say "well he frowned at me so it's racist." There are levels of interpretation involved here that are difficult to define. One of the best things about this issue coming to a head is that intelligent people are thinking about where those levels lie.

2) "So anyone can just say that they find something offensive and I have to stop it?" Again, obviously not. This is another thing that is a matter of degrees. Goodes put up with the booing for a long time. Eventually it reached a level where it was beyond anything we'd seen in decades. That was too far. At that stage, it's reasonable for someone to say, hey, I've had enough. Give it a rest. And at that point, if people choose to keep going, they're making it clear that they fall into one of two camps. Either they're denying that person the right to not be harassed, or they're claiming that the person is being unreasonable by likening the treatment they're copping to harassment. You can have a debate about the latter camp if you like - although it'd be tough to argue it considering the booing is at unprecedented levels - but being in the former camp for whatever reason is not acceptable.

3) "But I'm booing him because I don't like him. It's not my fault that other people are booing him because they're racist!" I understand why people hold this view, but from Goodes' perspective, the various pockets of people booing just merge into one large mob. It's impossible to distinguish between them. By lending your voice to racially-motivated harassment, you are supporting it - and supporting racism is equivalent to being racist. The unfortunate reality is those people who are racist have made it impossible for other people to boo Goodes without being tarred with the same brush.
I dont think we sit that far apart on this issue. I think people on both sides of the argument are getting more militant than necessary.
 

Cleric

Brownlow Medallist
Oct 14, 2011
14,845
16,713
Adelaide
AFL Club
Adelaide
Look, that's the thing. They're not - because of the dreadful discrimination and harassment they have been subjected to over hundreds of years.

Obviously, at a potential level they're the same as any of us. But it's hard to argue they're equal when they live decades less than white Australians. Or that they're equal when they are routinely overlooked for work in favour of non-indigenous people no more qualified than them.

It is precisely the history of discrimination towards them that makes it important to afford them extra sensitivity in matters of race. That's not racism, and trying to pretend it is just belittles everyone involved.

Indigenous Australians are, on average, far more disadvantaged than their peers, and in large part because of the actions of our society. Having repressed, abused, and disadvantaged them for years, it is extremely disingenuous to now turn around and say "now that you're behind the eight ball by a massive amount, we'll treat you the same as everyone else, and if you can't do as well as us then it's your fault."
Alright lets chase it out to the core faults.
Lets look at employment.
The first thing you need is an education, a trade and a skillset.
The educational outcomes for Aboriginal kids is horrible. The vast majority lack the required education to go on to Uni, to get an apprenticeship. This is one of the major stumbling blocks for employment.
Why is this? Is it because we do not allow them into schools? Do teachers neglect them because of their race? Is there a racist agenda in the government education system that has led to this lack of education?
No its not.
The biggest sole issue is truancy. And along with the truancy is a lack of parental control. My parents were on my back to get an education. They scoured my reports, went to parent teacher nights, made me do my homework. It was drummed into me that if I didnt get an education I was going to end up a bum.
There is not this same value put on what is called white mans education, and the result is what we have today. To help offset this we have special schools, affirmative action with jobs in government departments and so on.
So the core issue is not the racist white man trying to keep down people of colour. Educated and skilled Indian migrants dont have an issue getting jobs, so its not a colour thing is it?
So who has to take responsibility at the end of the day for this issue? The Aboriginal community itself. The government has provided all the opportunities, the schools, the money. We have people like Macca working with the youth using football as a way to get the kids to stay in school. The true problem is known.
So it irks me knowing the truth, to hear nuffies putting the blatant lie out there that the white people are racist and this is the reason for the lack of employment.
 
May 24, 2006
76,775
149,821
Car 55
AFL Club
Adelaide
Other Teams
Redbacks, Sturt, Liverpool, Arizona
Can you please find me the references where he said "remember whose land you are on"?
Is it a paraphrasing of "It is important to........ , because ...." or was it said like "Remember whose land you are on you ungrateful bastards"?
It came from when he was talking about changing the constitution.

“This document is ... over 112 years old,’’ he said. “It’s ancient,” he said. “It’s time to change it and recognise Aboriginal people — times have changed.’’

Goodes said it was important to continue the education process if racism was to be eradicated from wider society.

“First of all, Aboriginal people have been here a lot longer than anybody else, so just remember whose lands you are on and maybe pay a little bit more respect to that,’’ he said.

Link
 
Mar 7, 2012
17,526
15,046
AFL Club
Adelaide
He was found to have no case to answer from the 2004 assault until 2013, when it was reopened and he was fined with no conviction. Didn't stop anyone giving him a serve at every opportunity.

Goodes has never been the suspect in a criminal case as far as I know. And none of the justification for booing him involve any criminal activity.
 
Apr 29, 2008
31,674
24,859
Northeast Suburbs
AFL Club
Adelaide
Lol that's quite a few assumptions you've made there. The one I liked most is:

"the fact that the current level of booing started from a racist viewpoint".

Yes. It's undeniably true.

The biggest sole issue is truancy. And along with the truancy is a lack of parental control. My parents were on my back to get an education. They scoured my reports, went to parent teacher nights, made me do my homework. It was drummed into me that if I didnt get an education I was going to end up a bum.
There is not this same value put on what is called white mans education, and the result is what we have today. To help offset this we have special schools, affirmative action with jobs in government departments and so on.

Look, why do you think there might be issues with parental control? Have you entertained the possibility that it might be because our society and government at the time of their childhood failed their parents? Disadvantaged them, harassed them, and made them disillusioned with our society as a whole?

We have a responsibility to take additional steps to help young indigenous people to get educated. it's not good enough to say "the parents are just lazy, the kids don't care" when we were in large part responsible for those attitudes being formed.
 
Mar 7, 2012
17,526
15,046
AFL Club
Adelaide
It came from when he was talking about changing the constitution.

“This document is ... over 112 years old,’’ he said. “It’s ancient,” he said. “It’s time to change it and recognise Aboriginal people — times have changed.’’

Goodes said it was important to continue the education process if racism was to be eradicated from wider society.

“First of all, Aboriginal people have been here a lot longer than anybody else, so just remember whose lands you are on and maybe pay a little bit more respect to that,’’ he said.

Link

Cheers.

I've got no problem with that.

A few lines in the constitution to recognize and remember that Aboriginal Australians lived here 1st and were custodians of the land prior to white settlement. It's not going to cause the world to fold in on itself in a vortex and deprive anyone of their rights.

Given the context that Goodes balances the invasion day feelings with how is luck to be Australian an loves the opportunity, I am finding it really difficult to see where a problem with his words lie. If people snip out 7 words that he has uttered and present it as the entirety of his view it is mischievous and misleading and deliberately designed to turn feelings against Goodes and his cause.
 
Jun 7, 2011
58,373
60,426
Mount Gambier
AFL Club
Adelaide
That article Goodes wrote about the Utopia film is where some of the more controversial quotes come from. I think that article gets mixed up with his AOTY speech

Speaking of Utopia and to give peoples an idea of the minefield that this issue is, many on this forum would not be aware of the controversy it caused in her own community. Of course, reading this wouldn't change any views of the 'doco' itself, because it fits with a certain agenda or preconceived view.

http://www.alicespringsnews.com.au/2015/05/06/rosalie-kunoth-monks-not-welcome-in-her-community/

"



Rosalie Kunoth-Monks ‘not welcome’ in her community
 
Nov 24, 2007
25,849
54,730
DTC Frat House
AFL Club
Adelaide
Other Teams
Team Lambda Variant
http://www.smh.com.au/afl/sydney-sw...t-still-wants-an-apology-20150729-gimqms.html

Author Andrew Wu trolls the mother of the 13 year old in the best way - uses her own words:

"I do think people shouldn't boo him at the football, they should be trying to encourage him to be a better person than what he is," Joanne said of the former Australian of the Year.

Yes Adam, you can be a better person than Australian Of The Year. Nice conjunction there Andrew.

"She'd only turned 13 five days beforehand. She was technically still 12. She had no idea what she was saying."

Nope, that means she's technically 13. Technically. In fact, when you turn thirteen, that means you've completed 13 revolutions around the sun. Really, she'd begun her fourteenth year of life.

"Picking on a 13-year-old child I thought was absolutely ridiculous and having her questioned by police without an adult being present was absolutely disgusting on the part of himself and the AFL"

This just in: Adam Goodes has part-time job as Director of Police Procedure, which he performs whilst at the same time as playing football. Also the AFL tell the police what to do.

Gee, I hope I'm allowed to be racist towards dumb people. They're pretty easy to spot, once they open their mouths.

 
Last edited:

skoobydoo

Premiership Player
Apr 3, 2012
3,364
2,681
Under the Southern Cross
AFL Club
Adelaide
Other Teams
Bite Basebal Crystal Brook Roosters
I don't quite grasp the action of booing. Is it just noise or meant to show contempt? It just doesn't register as within the level of my expressive intelligence.

Maybe if people translated what they want to communicate into words instead of the boo sound we would all know pretty much what their true beliefs and feelings are. :rolleyes:
 

Cleric

Brownlow Medallist
Oct 14, 2011
14,845
16,713
Adelaide
AFL Club
Adelaide
Yes. It's undeniably true.



Look, why do you think there might be issues with parental control? Have you entertained the possibility that it might be because our society and government at the time of their childhood failed their parents? Disadvantaged them, harassed them, and made them disillusioned with our society as a whole?

We have a responsibility to take additional steps to help young indigenous people to get educated. it's not good enough to say "the parents are just lazy, the kids don't care" when we were in large part responsible for those attitudes being formed.
Your only guessing thats the reason. Its 2015 now, and still truancy exists. There is going to be another lost generation thats going to end up on welfare or worse in jail. At some point people have to take responsibility for themselfs. Nothing will change until those communities decide they want to change. There is no white man holding them back.
To continue to blame white Australians just continues the belief that they cant. It just continues the victim mentality. Instead of treating them like helpless victims we should be giving them self empowerment.
But nothing will change. This conversation will be had in 40 years time by two other people.
 
Nov 1, 2012
38,541
58,983
AFL Club
Adelaide
So here we have a non indigenous person telling the indigenous person - who feels as if he is being racially vilified - that he must be mistaken. It says so here in this white man's legislative guide. :rolleyes:

Look at it a different way, we have the rules of society as a whole that apply to all and everyone. And what we are not saying is that anyone has the right to decry racial vilification with a standard set as low as "because I said so".

It cannot and should not be any other way.
 

FantasticShirt

Norm Smith Medallist
Feb 6, 2010
5,572
9,660
Melbourne + Adelaide
AFL Club
Adelaide
It may not be what you want to hear. Australians are proud of their tolerance yet can be perplexed when challenged on race, their response often defensive.

I may be overly sensitive. I may see insult where none is intended. Maybe my position of relative success and privilege today should have healed deep scars of racism and the pain of growing up Indigenous in Australia. The same could be said of Adam. And perhaps that is right.

But this is how Australia makes us feel. Estranged in the land of our ancestors, marooned by the tides of history on the fringes of one of the richest and demonstrably most peaceful, secure and cohesive nations on earth.

....

To Adam’s ears, the ears of so many Indigenous people, these boos are a howl of humiliation. A howl that echoes across two centuries of invasion, dispossession, and suffering. Others can parse their words and look for other explanations, but we see race and only race. How can we see anything else when race is what we have clung to even as it has been used as a reason to reject us.

I can tell you how Adam Goodes feels. Every Indigenous person has felt it - Stan Grant


http://www.theguardian.com/commenti...ous-person-has-felt-it?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other
 

Slippery Pete

Samcro24 alias account
Jul 19, 2010
25,387
61,650
AFL Club
Adelaide
Look, I get that this is a bit murky. But at this stage, continuing to join in the mass booing IS racist.

I get where you're going with this. If everyone just comes to the consensus that the booing of Goodes is racist, those who continue to boo can now, without impunity, be freely labelled as racists.

It sounds logical, but you should think very carefully about whether you believe that's progress.
 
I don't follow your logic here. Surely you can't be saying that footy is only for the rich and the privileged?

It's not exactly the opera
Mate, if you have the money to go to the footy, you are privileged. Jesus. How the hell is she underprivileged?
 
Nov 1, 2012
38,541
58,983
AFL Club
Adelaide
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back