Universal Love Not Boo-ing Goodes

[Deaneus!]

“First of all, Aboriginal people have been here a lot longer than anybody else, so just remember whose lands you are on and maybe pay a little bit more respect to that,’’ he said.

I understand what he's saying there, and I agree with him, but that particular line gets meh levels of sympathy from me. As a grandchild of Eastern European migrants from WW2, I can categorically say I'm not alive here because Hitler thought Polish people were nice. The last x thousand years of European history and indeed world history is one of wars to take lands, riches etc. In fact there's probably even an argument that indigenous people should count themselves lucky they were on an island on the other side of the world, miles from anywhere, whilst all the empires that centered around Europe / Asia fought it out for a few millennia. Otherwise, they'd have probably been genocided hundreds of years ago, sold into slavery (AFAIK they were not, happy to be proven wrong), subjugated or flat out exterminated, and long before our current supposed period of enlightenment decided that doing those things was wrong.

And as for Milne, the point was about the booing. I'm sure eventually his feelings were hurt, just like Goodes'. He technically hadn't done anything wrong, so why was it okay?

 

[NaturalDisaster]

"stop booing, its not very nice" is this AFL football or primary school sport class?

 

[Sanders]

Yes. It's undeniably true.

Don't be so silly. It's not even true at all, as evidence by your need to call it "fact" to gloss over a lack of evidence in support.

Something that isn't even true, isn't made more true by the use of the preposition "undeniably" true

It's very deniable.

 

[rocket18]

Not everyone is being called racist.

?

Wut, that is what is fuelling this furore.

People are pissed they are labeled racists cos they booed a tosspot.

There may be tiny % of booers that are racist but I reckon the majority of people aren't.

If the Bombers came out and had said "the booing of Jobe is Homophobic and must stop, if you continue booing that makes you a homophobe"

People responses would be the same - what are you on about I am booing cos he is a tosspot.

 

[AJB84]

No, it's not. But people who actually go to the effort of writing in to express their views are likely, at the very least, some of their most avid listeners. So labeling those people as idiots, as a broadcaster who relies on their tuning in to listen, is the height of idiocy.

I don't agree with this either they may be the Loudest and Most Angry.

They are probably the people who are trying to defend themselves the I am not a Racist BUT crowd or the people who are Racist and don't think their side is getting represented enough.

Based on the comments on the show by presenters and guests are mostly Pro Goodes why would someone Pro Goodes contact them?

 

[Deaneus!]

Mark Ricciuto's article was pretty good. I especially liked:

One thing that will make matters worse is what the AFL’s indigenous chief Jason Mifsud wants to do. He wants every indigenous player in the competition to perform the ‘war dance’ in support of Goodes. This will only divide further as Lewis Jetta’s did on the weekend.

If Adelaide people have learned anything, whenever Jason Mifsud suggests anything, you do the opposite.

Unfortunately, in the world we live in, talking about these issues whether it be indigenous or other races, is so touchy that most people don’t even go there. This is unhealthy because, if we don’t go there, then how are we going to fix it?

Amen brother.

Another example of this is what happened to former Adelaide recruiting officer Matt Rendell. He tried to come up with an idea to help the retention rates of young indigenous footballers in the AFL. His idea wasn’t verbalised properly and therefore he was perceived to be racist, when that is far from the truth.

Mifsud strikes again! Vlad strikes again! Trigg strikes again!

 

[headache1]

I don't agree with this either they may be the Loudest and Most Angry.

They are probably the people who are trying to defend themselves the I am not a Racist BUT crowd or the people who are Racist and don't think their side is getting represented enough.

Based on the comments on the show by presenters and guests are mostly Pro Goodes why would someone Pro Goodes contact them?

Ok then, Stephen Rowe is a genius, and calling the people who bother to write into his show idiots is a brilliant way of doing things.

Why would anybody on either side of the issue bother to contact the show if they weren't a regular listener?

 

[AJB84]

Wut, that is what is fuelling this furore.

People are pissed they are labeled racists cos they booed a tosspot.

There may be tiny % of booers that are racist but I reckon the majority of people aren't.

If the Bombers came out and had said "the booing of Jobe is Homophobic and must stop, if you continue booing that makes you a homophobe"

People responses would be the same - what are you on about I am booing cos he is a tosspot.

They stopped booing Jobe after a couple of games.

There are player that are far dirtier than Goodes that people don't Boo go and Boo them every week for a year then you may have a point.

Guess what nobody will....

 

[adelaidecrows]

 

[AJB84]

Ok then, Stephen Rowe is a genius, and calling the people who bother to write into his show idiots is a brilliant way of doing things.

Why would anybody on either side of the issue bother to contact the show if they weren't a regular listener?

You said that it was 90% of the audience

Take into account the percentage of people who will write to a station lets say 1-5%

Now take into account the percentage of people who have an interest in the story and MAY write in lets say 0.1% - 0.5%

Now we take into account how many of those will have a strong enough opinion to actually write in we are now at so low a percentage that even if they stopped listening it would not make a difference.

 

[headache1]

You said that it was 90% of the audience

Take into account the percentage of people who will write to a station lets say 1-5%

Now take into account the percentage of people who have an interest in the story and MAY write in lets say 0.1% - 0.5%

Now we take into account how many of those will have a strong enough opinion to actually write in we are now at so low a percentage that even if they stopped listening it would not make a difference.

No, I didn't.

 

[Big Gazoongas]

Well unfortunately BG, you don't get to decide what everyone else does - just because you want it a certain way OR because you pay to get in.

You will find other things in your life work the same way ... buying a newspaper might not mean you agree with all the articles, going to the movies might not mean you agree with the political pov in said movie, and there are many more I'm sure you can think of yourself.

One thing that you don't have to put up with in any of these examples is being personally abused, especially not to the extent that it is influencing your job and livelihood.

So FFS, just recognise that this example of booing has gone too far - and rally against it for the right reasons. All of the stuff about why people have an issue with it at the theoretical level are completely irrelevant. Accept that it is hurting Goodes, and get behind the good reasons to stop it.

How about this - say it out loud with me "I will not boo Adam Goodes, because I am not racist." (it does not follow that if you do boo him you are racist, in case anyone tries to jump to that stupid conclusion)

Seriously what the s**t you on about. (sounds like you're having a go at me)

When have I suggested that booing hasn't gone too far?
When have I said that it isn't hurting Adam?
When have I suggested that I will boo Adam?

For the record so its clear if you're making accusations specific to me.

I agree that booing Goodes has gone too far and must stop
I agree that it has now hurt him.
I have not booed Goodes, I have never intended to boo Goodes and I am not racist.

If your are asserting that the the booing of Goodes first started because of racial undertones, rubbish. (unfortunately that's what has been happening as a generalised view)

I'm not interested in peoples political agenda at football games, it needs to stay out. You have a glaring example why right here right now.

 

[Sanguinarius]

So... this issue has caused 58 pages of debate and discussion from our board alone.

From my point of view, as someone who moved here from overseas as a child and dont always understand the complex relationship Australia has with its indigenous members, I always used to like Goodes as a player. especially during the mid 00's where we always just seemed to have the wood over them, despite them winning the cup.

Outside of that, well I didn't hear much from him other that the occasional interview on TV or 5aa so I didnt have that great an understanding of him as a person, but at the same time I never really paid much attention. So with that I was surprised that he was nominated for, and then won, the Australian of the year award. At the time I remember shrugging it off as typical of Australia to heap more respect onto undeserving sports starts - with the added tick of being aboriginal the icing on the cake. Learning later that of all the extra time and work he has devoted to aboriginal support and needs programs I am happy to admit that my initial snap judgement was completely wrong. Further, this is the exact type of person that is needed. We all know of the disadvantages that many aboriginal groups face and Adam is the exact type of representative that is needed for the indigenous youth need to look up to. We all know of the work done by many ex-afl footballers, even our own Andrew MacLeod, with them. Adam is just much more vocal in it. A different aproach maybe, but maybe thats whats needed.

I dont think I'vew ever booed a player (umpires on the other hand...) so maybe thats why I just dont understand the booing of Adam. Is he the cleanest player? Probably not, but I wouldnt put him in the top offenders category. Even if you did, I cant remember Players like Crowley, Ballantyne or Lindsy Thomas copping systemic booing on this level. Is it that he stages for free kicks? A little, maybe, but again I've seen players like Dangerfield play up a bit for the camera in an effort to get a free. I dont believe that his punishment (the constant booing) has fit the crime. That said, I have seen people try to use it as justification for the booing, which I find interesting.

The incident with the girl was not a good look. I can understand why adam would have reacted the way he did, but still not a good look. However, this all occurred over 2 years ago now, which is a long leed time for the booing of today and the past few weeks. Is it another reason to not like him? Sure, but I dont think its justification for 20 thousand people, week in, week out, to boo the guy. I personally believe the media are defintiely playing their part now. By coming out so strangly on the racism angle, I feel they've made it worse. I do beleive that an racist undercurrent has contributed to this situation, but I dont feel their heavy handed approach has helped the matter and has contributed to turning it into an ugly argument.

Because of Adams status in the aboriginal community, and the lack of some smoking gun of a crime having been committed, I do feel that whatever the intention, the booing is going to be taken as a racist action by indigenous members of our society. Here is someone who to them (and many others it must be said) is a hero and a leader who has dedicated much of his time to being a voice for their troubles who is being singled out for abuse. From their point of view, how are they meant to see this action? To them how must it seem? For that reason, even if I were to believe in the legitimacy of the complaints against Adam, I can't see the outcome of the boos as being anything other than negative for him and the thousands of indigenous who identify with him. It has a deeper reach than one man on a football field.

 

[Mego Red]

Tell me where I'm wrong. I'm happy to debate this with you as long as you keep the hysteria down

Sure, feenix67 -

1. Goodes chucks a wobbly

Goodes hears an racist statement yelled at him from the crowd in the opening game of the 2013 Indigenous Round. He points out who says it. The woman is taken away. She's jeered by the crowd (all as per media reports - http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/a...day-to-apologise/story-fni5fan7-1226650256245)

2. Girl gets interrogated for 4 hours without parental supervision

Not actually true, I don't think.

"MCG security told her family to remain seated as they ejected the girl - and police detained her for what she said was two hours.

The teenager was initially questioned by police without an adult present. When police found out she was only 13, they went and got her grandmother."

http://www.foxsports.com.au/afl/afl...ut-of-proportion/story-e6frf3e3-1226651200208

The reporter seems to doubt the mother's report, but we won;t know the truth now. In any event, I'm not sure what Goodes has to do about that.

3. Goodes goes on self indulgent crusade

Okay. The actual events. I'm pulling from the above two sources and http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-05-25/goodes-gutted-but-places-no-blame/4712772.

"Goodes left the field immediately after the siren and was in the rooms for several minutes while teammates celebrated on the field. Channel Seven commentator Matthew Richardson said Goodes seemed close to tears."

# # #

"But Goodes said he is not blaming the girl, saying she deserved to be supported and educated about why the racist comment was unacceptable.

"I'm pretty gutted to be honest," he told reporters in Melbourne on Saturday morning.

"The win, the first in 13 years, to be up 47 points against Collingwood, to play such a pivotal role just sort of means nothing.

"To come to the boundary line and hear a 13-year-old girl call me an 'ape', and it's not the first time on a footy field that I've been referred to as a 'monkey' or an 'ape', it was shattering."

Goodes urged restraint in the backlash against the girl who vilified him and said he hoped she would contact him to apologise.

"People need to get around her. She's 13, she's uneducated. If she wants to pick up the phone and call me, I'll take the call."

"I've got no doubt in my mind she's got no idea what she was calling me last night."

"It's not a witch hunt. I don't want people to go after this girl."

"We've just got to help educate society better so it doesn't happen again."

Goodes said that Victoria Police asked if he would like to press charges but he declined, reiterating that the girl needs to learn why her abuse was hurtful.

"It's not her fault, she's 13, she's still so innocent, I don't put any blame on her," he said.

"Unfortunately it's what she hears, in the environment she's grown up in that has made her think that it's OK to call people names."

"I guarantee she has no idea right now how it makes people feel to call them an ape."

4. People no like it

"Much respect for Adam Goodes on all fronts,’’ Cats skipper Joel Selwood tweeted.

Jack Riewoldt said he was "sitting on the couch really flat’’ after the incident.

West Coast’s Nic Naitanui tweeted: "Not to assume the worst but to disrespect a legend on indigenous round is appaling. shameful she's only young too.’’

I presume you mean folks who didn't read what Goodes said, though, or didn't like the idea that this racist stuff was still in the bloody news.

5. Opportunist pollies give him an Award
6. People still dont like it and express that in a democratic fashion

I'm not sure I understand what these means. He got an award as a spokesman for indigenous issues, as a sporting leader (it was the year he played more games than any other indenous player), and for his work with troubled indigenous youth through the Goodes O'Laughlin Foundation. Often Australia of the Year is given to someone as an opportunity to highlight community issues. I guess people can and should express when they don't like a selection.

7. Goodes chucks a wobbly and does a war dance

Well, you're forgetting thi8s: http://www.afl.com.au/news/2013-05-29/mcguires-king-king-gaffe

And th detail around why many were upset, the time he raised the question of celebrating Australia Day on the day its inhabitants we're invaded by foreign colonizers, which is a reasonable thing to raise and something he did quite politely, all things being considered.

This is his speech: http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/a...-really-divisive/story-fni5f22o-1227463023081

But yes, this year he did frighten people by using an invisible spear when celebrating a goal.

Personally, I thought this was a dumb thing to do. Your miles in front and it's Carlton, FFS. And this is one time I would have thought it fine to boo him. I'm happy for folks to boo any opposition goal celebration.

8. People dont like it some more and boo him
9. Goodes chucks another wobbly

Not sure when this is - after the war dance?

10. Opportunist journos play the racism card
11. Goodes chucks a wobbly and says Im not playing anymore

Well, he emotionally exhausted from eighteen months of aggressive persecution, right? That seems like why someone would pack up now.

 

[cmndstab]

Don't be so silly. It's not even true at all, as evidence by your need to call it "fact" to gloss over a lack of evidence in support.

Something that isn't even true, isn't made more true by the use of the preposition "undeniably" true

It's very deniable.

Go on, then. Why don't you suggest a reason why the the escalation of booing has been so closely correlated with Goodes' various public stances on issues of race.

 

[Mattrox]

Wut, that is what is fuelling this furore.

People are pissed they are labeled racists cos they booed a tosspot.

There may be tiny % of booers that are racist but I reckon the majority of people aren't.

If the Bombers came out and had said "the booing of Jobe is Homophobic and must stop, if you continue booing that makes you a homophobe"

People responses would be the same - what are you on about I am booing cos he is a tosspot.

Why is he a toss pot?

 

[rocket18]

You're allowed to not like him, just like anyone else. Of course, if you dislike him - even if only in part - because of his exceedingly reasonable and intelligent views on racial discrimination that means your opinion is based on racism, but that's your right. You're allowed to hold racist views.

.

That's a dangerous path to go down, if I dislike someone because of his views on racial discrimination that makes me a racist.

What if the person who has the view is the same race as me?

I really don't like how people are so quick to make generalizations about so many people on the basis of so little information, it is sort of what these people are campaigning about in the first place.

 

[Huntercrow]

"Do you think the booing of Adam Goodes is racially motivated?"
- Yes or no.

Classic news.com/Today Tonight/ACA/s**t media question. No room for nuance or any sort of middle-ground, ether everyone is a racist or no one is.

Of course the majority vote is no, especially based on people who read news.com.

What middle ground? Are you saying the poll is wrong? I'm pretty sure this is how the overwhelming majority think.
I don't believe the media outlet or the poll question would make too much difference.

The strange thing about this is that the AFL the Players association as well as the Murdoch media empire are out of touch going by the overall polling so far.
Unfortunately the majority of pollsters only have social media to voice their opinions.

 

[sbenno]

Im going to need more examples because the ones you have given dont hold water.

I am going to need some more examples as the ones you have given dont hold water.
Re health outcomes.
Are you saying that Aboriginal people are discriminated against by the health system? Are you saying they are not allowed to go into hospitals, and if they are they are not given the same treatment and help by the doctors and nurses as they would give white people?
Are you saying that they are not given access to the same drugs as white people? Do ambulances not take them to hospital like they would me?
Are you saying their children are not given vaccinations like white children are? Are you saying the government is racist with the health system where aboriginal peoples lower life expectancy is a result of this?
Ill start with these questions first and then follow it up after your answer.

You're making the incorrect (but common) assumption that all racism is conscious and overt. Some of the most harmful racism is just assuming that everyone is like you, and basing assumptions and planning around that. That's exactly why the society we live in today is patriachal and anglo centric.

Here's a not uncommon scenario:
An aboriginal man is brought into a hospital. As an elder in his community, he predominantly speaks his native language, and speaks poor, broken english. At the hospital he is seen by a white doctor, and attended by white nurses, who only speak english. They arrange for an interpreter, but it takes some time for the interpreter to come (next day), and in the mean time he is being poked and prodded, tested and jabbed with a poor understanding of what is wrong any why. He has some difficulty dealing with the female nurses. Eventually the interpreter comes, but he speaks a different aboriginal language, and communication is not perfect. The interpreter also has a poor understanding of the medical condition and of what the doctor is trying to get across, and incorrectly emphasises the wrong thing, or tells him some things just to make him feel better. This situation continues until the man is fed up, and tries to discharge against medical advice, or ends up just saying yes to everything, despite poor understanding. Has the healthcare he received really been as good as a white man with the same condition? Will he go away understanding why he was there, and what he needs to do to maintain his health?

Or add in a reluctance for mothers to visit health clinics, due to doctors previously being involved with the stolen generations, and the fear that their children will be taken from them.

Add the sheer distance between where most aboriginal people live and the nearest health care, due to limitations of funding.

Where is the racism in all of that?
In not providing enough interpreters (compounded by over working the ones that are available)
In not accounting for differences in relations between men and women in different cultures
In assuming mothers are comfortable bringing their children in to health clinics, despite history.
In not making health care accessible to remote communities, where most aboriginal australians live, and compounding this by shifting funds to other activities which are more apparent to the electorate.

That's systemic racism.

 

[rocket18]

Why is he a toss pot?

He went on a national TV show and admitted he took performance enhancing drugs.

 

[StonesThrow]

I've never had a problem with Goodes purely because I don't listen to or read much media.

I still don't care. Am I the only one who doesn't give a damn about this whole thing?

 

[adelaidecrows]

We are going nowhere fast on this issue. Cant we just agree to disagree and move on?

 

[baldandbroke]

Seriously what the s**t you on about. (sounds like you're having a go at me)

When have I suggested that booing hasn't gone too far?
When have I said that it isn't hurting Adam?
When have I suggested that I will boo Adam?

Nope - none of that was pointing specifically at you. <not intended that way anyway>

For the record so its clear if you're making accusations specific to me.

I agree that booing Goodes has gone too far and must stop
I agree that it has now hurt him.
I have not booed Goodes, I have never intended to boo Goodes and I am not racist.

Great, we are on the same page here.

If your are asserting that the the booing of Goodes first started because of racial undertones, rubbish. (unfortunately that's what has been happening as a generalised view)

Again, didn't say that ... but if you think that no-one had ever booed Goodes for racist reason - before they booed him for a non-racist reason, I'd be pretty interested in knowing how the hell you came by that knowledge? I'd guess he'd have been booed and racially vilified many many time on the footy field before anyone even knew who he was.

I'm not interested in peoples political agenda at football games, it needs to stay out. You have a glaring example why right here right now.

This was bit that was pointed at you. It will never "stay out". There will always be political stuff interwoven into sport. If you are so against this then you will probably have to avoid sporting event in case you are exposed to it ... or just put up with it.

 

[cmndstab]

That's a dangerous path to go down, if I dislike someone because of his views on racial discrimination that makes me a racist.

What if the person who has the view is the same race as me?

I really don't like how people are so quick to make generalizations about so many people on the basis of so little information, it is sort of what these people are campaigning about in the first place.

Yes, if you don't like someone based on their reasonable views on racial discrimination, it makes you a racist even if you're the same race.

Just like if you don't like someone based on their reasonable views on discrimination against homosexuals, it means you're a bigot against homosexuals even if you are one yourself.

Again, it's difficult to define what "reasonable" means. Obviously if my views are "we should be allowed to discriminate against black people" and you disagree with my views, that doesn't make you a racist. But Adam Goodes' viewpoints have been more than reasonable.

 

[Mego Red]

Its was just a boo? FFS.
Double standards. Becareful not to treat people of different races differently. Thats the basis of being a racist.

Wait, thousands of indigenous people have done war dances and waved imaginary spears at a poor white guy for three hours every week for the last 18 months?

That poor oppressed white guy.