1. NEW! Share your BigFooty threads and posts to Twitter and Facebook.

    Find out more »

Not bottoming out – have we made a mistake?

Discussion in 'Adelaide' started by CaptainDangerfield, Apr 5, 2012.

Put it out there
  1. *PAF

    *PAF BFSC Platinum

    Port Adelaide
    Other teams:
    Joined:
    Feb 05
    Posts:
    15,840
    Location:
    Top End
    Actually Boak is a good player but he is overrated. Not just on the various Port boards, but in the media and on this board as well.

    (Log in to remove this ad.)

  2. Mattrox

    Mattrox All Australian

    Adelaide
    Other teams:
    Joined:
    Mar 12
    Posts:
    9,992
    Scott Thompson and Tom Lynch didn't start as Crows. But I'm glad we have there players. Good recruiting doesn't always come from The 1st draft pick.... Other clubs helped to develop these players. My point was more that I'd rather recruit smart rather than develop a culture of tanking when the chips are down.
  3. Punchy Bassett

    Punchy Bassett Club Legend

    Adelaide
    Other teams:
    NFC AUFC MUFC Socceroos
    Joined:
    Oct 03
    Posts:
    10,137
    Location:
    Adelaide, Australia
    Add Robbie Gray to that
  4. Punchy Bassett

    Punchy Bassett Club Legend

    Adelaide
    Other teams:
    NFC AUFC MUFC Socceroos
    Joined:
    Oct 03
    Posts:
    10,137
    Location:
    Adelaide, Australia
    Wow thats even worse then, cause he has done **** all.
  5. Vader

    Vader Sith Lord

    Adelaide
    Other teams:
    Norwood, Adelaide Crows
    Joined:
    Oct 05
    Posts:
    26,619
    Location:
    Canberra
    There's a few other angles which really haven't been examined yet. Putting aside the PAP crap.. let's think about what the likely benefits would have been...

    The only years we were ever going to bottom out were 2010 & 2011 (plus 2012 if NC hadn't departed the scene when he did). The big problem with bottoming out in 10/11 is that GC & GWS were pillaging these drafts and there was no chance of us getting a player worthy of risking the anger of the masses for finishing so poorly.

    Even if we'd finished 2nd last in both 2010 & 2011 we would have been looking at pick #6. Sort of. GC & GWS also had access to the 10 best players born Jan-April even before the draft began. Odds are that 2 or 3 of those players would have slotted in above the player we could have grabbed at #6... so effectively we're looking at the 8th or 9th best player.. and suffering the ridicule associated with bottoming out for the privilege. No thanks!

    Now, if we'd been faced with the possibility of bottoming out for the 2012 draft which is (relatively) free from contamination and which is rated extremely highly.. then you'd probably get a very different response from me.
  6. ruscy002

    ruscy002 All Australian

    Adelaide
    Other teams:
    Norwood
    Joined:
    Sep 07
    Posts:
    5,214
    Location:
    Adelaide
    Disagree - 2008/2009 was the perfect opportunity to bottom out if we were going to make a strategic decision to do so. At the end of 2007, we scraped through to 8th spot and lost the elimination final. Mattner, Meesen, Hudson and Welsh all walked out on the club and our captain retired.

    Bottoming out would've been a reasonably easy sell, but we kept too much dead wood on our list and focused on the short term, contributing to us involuntarily half-bottoming out in 2010/2011 when we couldn't afford to.
  7. Geoffa32

    Geoffa32 Premiership Player

    Adelaide
    Other teams:
    The Autobots and Team America
    Joined:
    Aug 07
    Posts:
    27,029
    Location:
    Adelaide
    FWIW Doughty has picked up on his NAB cup form.
  8. JP Sauce

    JP Sauce Club Legend

    Adelaide
    Other teams:
    NAFC, Redbacks, Chicago Bulls.
    Joined:
    Apr 11
    Posts:
    10,235
    Location:
    Radelaide
    Plus three :thumbsu:
  9. Vader

    Vader Sith Lord

    Adelaide
    Other teams:
    Norwood, Adelaide Crows
    Joined:
    Oct 05
    Posts:
    26,619
    Location:
    Canberra
    Nobody ever goes into a season saying "we're going to bottom out and qualify for priority picks this year". That decision is usually taken once things go pear shaped and it becomes apparent that finals are no longer part of the equation. Rarely would the decision be made before R8.

    Adelaide made the finals in both 2008 & 2009, so it's fairly safe to say that bottoming out in those years was never even going to be a contemplated possibility.

    On the other hand, at 0-5 in 2010 it would/should have been something that the committee was seriously contemplating.

    Note that we took 7x draftees in 2007, which wasn't a particularly strong draft. How much deeper did you want us to go, noting that all of our later picks (Jacky, Cook, Armstrong & Kite) are already gone?
  10. OldCrowBloke

    OldCrowBloke Team Captain

    Adelaide
    Other teams:
    Joined:
    May 10
    Posts:
    1,584
    Location:
    Canberra
    This is part of the whole premise of this thread which is rubbish!

    The majority of fans would never buy into some sort of tanking policy by our club. Look at how even this board gets into any club that looks like they drop a game in the last couple of rounds - and then expect our club to put up with that crap for a whole season?

    I can't see the sponsors being excited either. Fans dropping off, TV ratings down, because the paying public hate watching our team play dud footy.

    And there is NO GUARANTEE of success based on picking up cheap picks high in the draft.

    Bottoming out is something that can happen to teams, but trying to do it deliberately is just gutless and for losers.
  11. ruscy002

    ruscy002 All Australian

    Adelaide
    Other teams:
    Norwood
    Joined:
    Sep 07
    Posts:
    5,214
    Location:
    Adelaide
    I'm not saying that it would've been my choice, but if you're gonna do it then you might as well do it when you've got a reason - involuntarily losing 4 of your starting 22 players from a failed campaign (including your captain and best ever player) with an ageing list is that time.

    (Log in to remove this ad.)

  12. ruscy002

    ruscy002 All Australian

    Adelaide
    Other teams:
    Norwood
    Joined:
    Sep 07
    Posts:
    5,214
    Location:
    Adelaide
    You're not that naive Vader.

    Well for starters, we only traded in two players when four departed. Additionally, it's a moot point because we didn't pump games into our good 2007 draftees anyway (Armstrong included, he'd still be on our list if we had our way) - have you seen some of the absolute duds that Collingwood fielded on the way to snapping up Thomas, Pendlebury etc?

    Look, the damage was done with the list management (and terrible Fantasia-influenced drafting) prior to 2007 - the weak draft didn't help our cause. At the end of that season, we had the following players on our list who did not manage more than two more seasons:

    Massie
    Bassett
    Biglands
    McGregor
    Gill
    Campbell
    Jericho
    Shirley

    Factor in the need to move on the other four ageing champions in the same time frame and we got this very, very wrong.
  13. Vader

    Vader Sith Lord

    Adelaide
    Other teams:
    Norwood, Adelaide Crows
    Joined:
    Oct 05
    Posts:
    26,619
    Location:
    Canberra
    Granted there are exceptions... but only clubs who know that their team lists are truly awful. Our team played finals in 05, 06 & 07. Where is/was the justification for bottoming out in 08?
    What's your point here? Collingwood fielded a lot of duds because they had a shocking injury list that year, forcing them to plumb the depths of their list... much the same as we did in 2010.

    Ever thought the reason we didn't pump games in to those 2007 draftees is because they weren't good enough in the first place? Armstrong is the only one of those 4 who is/was even borderline AFL standard.
    I appreciate that.. and you're 100% right about Fantasia's culpability. His failure to come up with virtually any AFL quality footballers from 2000-2003, particularly from the first round, is truly appalling.

    By the end of 2007 we were getting towards the end of the Dad's Army generation left by Ayres. There was just no way of getting rid of so many players, all at once.
  14. Huntercrow

    Huntercrow Team Captain

    Adelaide
    Other teams:
    Lake Macquarie Dockers
    Joined:
    Feb 09
    Posts:
    2,334
    Location:
    Hunter Valley
    How do you sell memberships with the premise that there will be no wins during a season due to a bottoming out policy?

    Come one come all to the AFC's official "bottoming out season" in preparation for our next assault on the premiership.
    Come see the likes of Tippo, Thomo, Danger, Sauce and Stiffy spend extra time on the bench before their demotion to the SANFL all in the name of pick 1 in the November draft.
    We'll need our 19th man to harass our players at every opportunity and abuse the coaches box whenever practical. This is the start of a new era for the Crows so please turn up with your wife beaters and give it to the boys for the sake of our future.
    Get your official Crows "Tank" Tops from the merchandise van located at the rear of Loser Park (formerly AAMI Stadium) and remember No gain without PAIN. Think Kruzer, Murphy and Gibbs and it will happen.:thumbsu:
  15. ruscy002

    ruscy002 All Australian

    Adelaide
    Other teams:
    Norwood
    Joined:
    Sep 07
    Posts:
    5,214
    Location:
    Adelaide
    And...

    are irrelevant if this...

    is true.

    You answered this:

    And...

    Circular argument....team has to be awful to justify bottoming out. You can control making the team awful, or you can let things chug along and they naturally become awful (2010/2011).
  16. ruscy002

    ruscy002 All Australian

    Adelaide
    Other teams:
    Norwood
    Joined:
    Sep 07
    Posts:
    5,214
    Location:
    Adelaide
    The simple answer is, you don't. The bandwagoners disappear, then reappear when you're a force again - you can go to the bank on this.

    The AFC's appetite for risk is very low, so I'm guessing that this is the reason why we've never gone down this path - yet for some reason accidentally ending up in the same situation is ok? Weird...
  17. OldCrowBloke

    OldCrowBloke Team Captain

    Adelaide
    Other teams:
    Joined:
    May 10
    Posts:
    1,584
    Location:
    Canberra
    Not weird at all. The members and fans can stomach some pain if they think their team is actually gives a s**t. That they actually have some pride in their club. If circumstance drives the team to the bottom, so be it. But there is nothing that justifies a policy of not performing to the best you can.
    Karma is sure to bite you on the bum (Scully/Melbourne?)
  18. ruscy002

    ruscy002 All Australian

    Adelaide
    Other teams:
    Norwood
    Joined:
    Sep 07
    Posts:
    5,214
    Location:
    Adelaide
    But that raises the argument of tanking vs bottoming out. When I think tanking, that Kruezer cup farce. When I think bottoming out, I think Fremantle, where they purged their list of an enormous amount of shit, and focused on player development. There's a difference.

    Not sure about karma (Bock/Davis?) but I believe in intangibles (i.e. winning culture) that shouldn't be ****ed with. No idea how important this is, but its gotta mean something.
  19. OldCrowBloke

    OldCrowBloke Team Captain

    Adelaide
    Other teams:
    Joined:
    May 10
    Posts:
    1,584
    Location:
    Canberra
    I used the Scully example as one the D's picked up after dodgy performances, rather than losing a player we had built through the Rookies and a well-used pick 10.
  20. Freddy Bassett

    Freddy Bassett Club Legend

    Adelaide
    Other teams:
    PANTHERS,CHELSEA
    Joined:
    Nov 05
    Posts:
    7,776
    Location:
    At Work
    I thought it was time to revisit this thread..... If we came bottom in the past 4 years would of we been better off?

    2007 number 1 pick Kreuzer- We got Dangerfield....... WIN
    2008 number 1 pick Jack Watts - We got Phil Davis..... WIN
    2009 number 1 pick Tom Scully - We got Daniel Talia.... WIN
    2010 Compromised draft. First 3 picks went to GCoast. West Coast had pick 4- Gaff- We got B.Smith.... Gaff looks good, but am happy with Smith....

    I think it is fair to say, end of argument. Neil Craig and the AFC did the right thing:thumbsu:
  21. beartoo

    beartoo All Australian

    Adelaide
    Other teams:
    Adelaide
    Joined:
    Jul 04
    Posts:
    4,016
    Location:
    Moana Heights Adelaide
    Boak will most likely be gone at year's end. Gray is okay, but no game-breaker. Wingard is a goodun and the brilliant Hartlett looks like spending a great deal of his career in the medical room.
    Given where we are and who we have I'm pleased we didn't spend time on the bottom of the dung pile. As a club we have done well most years and that is a testament to our strong off-field leadership.
  22. A FEW GOOD MEN

    A FEW GOOD MEN Team Captain

    Adelaide
    Other teams:
    Joined:
    Apr 10
    Posts:
    2,032
    Location:
    Adelaide
    We have either been brilliant at player development or very lucky (my guess is a bit of both). The importance of top five draft picks is to get "elite" players. These are the guys that turn good teams into great teams. Not all elite players are top 5 draft picks (or father/son picks) but many of the elite players fit in these two categories.

    Our "elite" or potential elite players are Thommo (excellent trade), Dangerfield, (#10), Sloaney (#44), Sauce (excellent trade), Tippo (#32) and Walker (NSW steal). Compare this to players like Pendlebury, Thomas, Cloke and Shaw; Judd, Gibbs, Murphy, Kreuzer; or Hodge, Franklin and Roughead.
  23. Freddy Bassett

    Freddy Bassett Club Legend

    Adelaide
    Other teams:
    PANTHERS,CHELSEA
    Joined:
    Nov 05
    Posts:
    7,776
    Location:
    At Work
    Alan Stewart does not get the credit he deserves... Our development of our kids is right up there. Even more so that we dont have a reserves team and we dont have the budget of Collingwood..
  24. weneverland

    weneverland Team Captain

    Adelaide
    Other teams:
    Joined:
    Aug 09
    Posts:
    490
    Location:
    Adelaide
    Technically you may be right as it now looks like they will be the nadir seasons of our club. But I don't really think so. For me, bottoming out means getting right down to the bottom of the ladder, last or next to last, so that you get a crack at the first five or so draft picks and a potential elite player. In 2010, 2011 we were just poor and in "no-mans land".
  25. weneverland

    weneverland Team Captain

    Adelaide
    Other teams:
    Joined:
    Aug 09
    Posts:
    490
    Location:
    Adelaide
    Hindsight is a wonderful thing. I was just wondering if you have now switched baskets. Although I still have concerns about whether we have enough elite players to challenge successfully for a premiership, I think the bottom half of our list is developing very nicely.