Drugs/doping in AFL

[Moral Decay]

Initially defeatist, he was likely informed of ramifications should the matter be pursued or placated with promises in order to back down from any intended position or confrontation on the issue, however once this did become an issue and those who may have advised them became under pressure and otherwise found their own positions threatened, the position of weakness in backing down creates a strength that in any future effort you might be the one people then turn to in order to make the decisions on the matters you showed concern / foresight over. I'm not exactly sold that his is a position of self loathing for a paycheque or a dog playing dead so he can turn around and then severely maul / dominate his oppressor.

Because out of any changes to the clubs medical departments and practices, who will the club and game as a whole turn to if not the head doctor?

Another one rolling the dice?
If the board is spilled I'd expect a broom to be put through and his position would be vacated.

I don't think he's there for the paycheque: love of the club, ego and prestige for sure, I do think that like a lot of intelligent people he isn't that smart, he thinks he's done nothing wrong, he was loyal, and he did the right thing difficult though it may have been as he loves Hirdy, he loves the club but Hirdy was dirty, he probably thinks Hirdy got unlucky. He's had a working lifetime of respect from an institution and people he loves, he's started up a sports medicine business and been very successful, he's a great man working for a great club at the top of the tree, he has done nothing wrong; the AFL have validated this by backing down from the court case and sending him on a holiday.

It depends on where the ducks line up, at it's worst he's the doc in charge of a club where systemised doping took place on his watch, he tried to inform the board, but hardly pushed the point, he sent went email then played possum, he is at the very least complicit and is hanging on to his position to keep his practice going, he may well end up losing his licence. He's a weak petulant little man, who has always craved respect and power, his association with EFC has given him that self esteem and the admiration of his peers and underlings, he's a narcissist with an inferiority complex.

The question really needs to be asked of him, "which is more important your Hippocatic oath and professional integrity or his love for James Hird the EFC and the conviction of his own superiority? I think he has chosen the later and used his smarts to justify the decision.

 

[StFly]

Not rolling the dice at all, my old man was chairman of the board at a local level afl club, when there are scapegoats to be had and sweeping to be done, clubs and boards are extremely quick to allocate blame and default to it being the machinations of the few instead of a systemic issue. In the case where support services staff are the issue, that scapegoat are underlings + placating board members who otherwise were intending to step down irregardless (like the old man) or are inherently cancerous to the continuation of a solvent board (ie; the initial replacement, and legal actions against the club by several employees).

The doc is not absolved of any guilt, and it is proven he knew and didn't try all that hard to rock the establishment, there will however not be any royal commission to prove how many skeletons are in his closet, public opinion will lessen over time, and in the current climate, he'll be viewed as the less dirty of the bunch & whistleblower in the same way that Julian is revered by some as a revolutionary. He'll be retained, eventually fade out of the limelight and then it will simply end up that he help perpetuate the situation, but by then who will care all that much 5-10 years from now?

The victims, their families, and about 12 people and the pets they discuss world events with.

 

[Kildonan]

but by then who will care all that much 5-10 years from now?

The victims, their families, and about 12 people and the pets they discuss world events with.

Are you describing my life here?

 

[Sheeza69]

Apologies about the long post but I feel this unique case needs it.

It is interesting hearing about the experience from an athlete perspective with regards the unique challenges facing athletes in the current sporting environment but I feel that focusing on the athletes in this case and what they are going through/whether they deserve sympathy etc. fails to address the crux of this whole mess and also muddies the waters which is exactly what Essendon want in this case.

Let’s start from the beginning. Essendon are a very, very powerful club with connections all the way to the top in politics, business and media in this country. I feel this is very important to mention first as this is the reason that this case has appeared more complicated than it really is: the only reason it seems like a complicated case is because they have people literally on their payroll or who have connections to the club who are using their influence to muddy the waters at ever single turn through their respective roles in the media or wherever and also that Essendon kept no records on what they did (this should in itself be even more reason that we all know they are guilty but it has been spun into something that throws doubt on whether anything illegal happened: great work by the PR spinners on this but it beggars believe that people believe this as being a positive for the club).

We are also dealing with a unique club in Essendon, their fan culture, and the main man at the centre of it all: James Hird. The way all the above intersect with each other is another major factor in the way this has all played out.

Melbourne is such a unique city. It supports sport like no other but in a unique way: there are so many clubs people tend to choose when they are young based on who was winning at the time compared to other places I have lived where you pretty much support the club your family supports and/or are in your area. Essendon therefore have a unique culture of glory-hunting adult fans due to their success in the early eighties, mid nineties and 2000. What this has meant is that they have regularly attracted people to them who like supporting winners. They associate with a club because it wins and they feel it rubs off on them. This breeds a unique, arrogant supporter base like no other. And James Hird is their poster boy. He encapsulates everything that makes these glory hunting fans love their club. He is a winner. He delivered the success they craved as supporters to validate their lives and they will never forget it. That is why they are willing to forgive him for overseeing this mess. They are a special breed Essendon supporters, you can learn a lot about the psychology of groups by looking at the unbelievable way they have responded to this crisis, and very little of it is good.

We have more than enough circumstantial evidence to implicate Essendon and Hird in this case, and we all know that circumstantial evidence is all we need in cases like this dealing with criminals like Dank, Charters and Hird. ASADA know this. The AFL, pandering to this powerful club have tried to help them out but it has not gone well: they are dealing with an egomaniac in Hird that will simply refuse and deny to take responsibility until the bitter end. A poster on the main board TerryWallet summed it up better than I could here regarding the AFL and their deals with Essendon and the way Hird manipulated the situation:

"This was all extensively commented on and argued over a year ago.

It's funny, it was "us foamers" who were banging on repeatedly about Vlad and the Commission's corruption all during the early months as it was clear that he, and they, were attempting to cover up for EFC doping their players.

At the time , EFC HTB posters were happy to have Vlad, Kelty etc on their side.

Then when the AFL(on behalf of ASADA) demanded Hird take his deserved blame to protect the players, Hird took on Vlad and pushed everyone under the bus.

In defense of The Almighty Goldenballs, EFC fans then came to the ridiculous conclusion that Vlad was against Essendon. When in fact he was their biggest protector and was doing his utmost to get a team full of doped players out of sanctions.

Amazed me at the time. Still amazes me now.”

Make no mistake, this is a unique case. It could only happen in Melbourne and only with the Essendon football club. From reading sources ever since the first press conference where Essendon ADMITTED they needed help from ASADA and that they have lost control of the situation and they even had an internal report saying that they had lost control, we have been putting up with an unprecedented amount of propaganda in the media trying to make this case not so clear cut. Luckily we have brave journalists like Baker and Mckenzie that have shone a light on what happened. We also have ASADA continuing to go after Essendon based on the evidence we have in the face of enormous pressure.

This case is very important for the future of sport in Australia. Essendon and the players need to be punished severely for what has happened. Justice needs to prevail. There is more than enough evidence and ASADA have done well to compile it all. The players aren’t innocent in this, they were part of a “whatever it takes” sporting club run by someone who thought they were above the law, a “winner” in Hird. Like most people like him, he just thought he would never be caught. And his loyal followers and helpers in the media, politics etc refuse to see the truth of what happened as it will say just as much about themselves and their nature as it does about Hird.

Apologies about the long post but I feel this unique case needs it.

It is interesting hearing about the experience from an athlete perspective with regards the unique challenges facing athletes in the current sporting environment but I feel that focusing on the athletes in this case and what they are going through/whether they deserve sympathy etc. fails to address the crux of this whole mess and also muddies the waters which is exactly what Essendon want in this case.

Let’s start from the beginning. Essendon are a very, very powerful club with connections all the way to the top in politics, business and media in this country. I feel this is very important to mention first as this is the reason that this case has appeared more complicated than it really is: the only reason it seems like a complicated case is because they have people literally on their payroll or who have connections to the club who are using their influence to muddy the waters at ever single turn through their respective roles in the media or wherever and also that Essendon kept no records on what they did (this should in itself be even more reason that we all know they are guilty but it has been spun into something that throws doubt on whether anything illegal happened: great work by the PR spinners on this but it beggars believe that people believe this as being a positive for the club).

We are also dealing with a unique club in Essendon, their fan culture, and the main man at the centre of it all: James Hird. The way all the above intersect with each other is another major factor in the way this has all played out.

Melbourne is such a unique city. It supports sport like no other but in a unique way: there are so many clubs people tend to choose when they are young based on who was winning at the time compared to other places I have lived where you pretty much support the club your family supports and/or are in your area. Essendon therefore have a unique culture of glory-hunting adult fans due to their success in the early eighties, mid nineties and 2000. What this has meant is that they have regularly attracted people to them who like supporting winners. They associate with a club because it wins and they feel it rubs off on them. This breeds a unique, arrogant supporter base like no other. And James Hird is their poster boy. He encapsulates everything that makes these glory hunting fans love their club. He is a winner. He delivered the success they craved as supporters to validate their lives and they will never forget it. That is why they are willing to forgive him for overseeing this mess. They are a special breed Essendon supporters, you can learn a lot about the psychology of groups by looking at the unbelievable way they have responded to this crisis, and very little of it is good.

We have more than enough circumstantial evidence to implicate Essendon and Hird in this case, and we all know that circumstantial evidence is all we need in cases like this dealing with criminals like Dank, Charters and Hird. ASADA know this. The AFL, pandering to this powerful club have tried to help them out but it has not gone well: they are dealing with an egomaniac in Hird that will simply refuse and deny to take responsibility until the bitter end. A poster on the main board TerryWallet summed it up better than I could here regarding the AFL and their deals with Essendon and the way Hird manipulated the situation:

"This was all extensively commented on and argued over a year ago.

It's funny, it was "us foamers" who were banging on repeatedly about Vlad and the Commission's corruption all during the early months as it was clear that he, and they, were attempting to cover up for EFC doping their players.

At the time , EFC HTB posters were happy to have Vlad, Kelty etc on their side.

Then when the AFL(on behalf of ASADA) demanded Hird take his deserved blame to protect the players, Hird took on Vlad and pushed everyone under the bus.

In defense of The Almighty Goldenballs, EFC fans then came to the ridiculous conclusion that Vlad was against Essendon. When in fact he was their biggest protector and was doing his utmost to get a team full of doped players out of sanctions.

Amazed me at the time. Still amazes me now.”

Make no mistake, this is a unique case. It could only happen in Melbourne and only with the Essendon football club. From reading sources ever since the first press conference where Essendon ADMITTED they needed help from ASADA and that they have lost control of the situation and they even had an internal report saying that they had lost control, we have been putting up with an unprecedented amount of propaganda in the media trying to make this case not so clear cut. Luckily we have brave journalists like Baker and Mckenzie that have shone a light on what happened. We also have ASADA continuing to go after Essendon based on the evidence we have in the face of enormous pressure.

This case is very important for the future of sport in Australia. Essendon and the players need to be punished severely for what has happened. Justice needs to prevail. There is more than enough evidence and ASADA have done well to compile it all. The players aren’t innocent in this, they were part of a “whatever it takes” sporting club run by someone who thought they were above the law, a “winner” in Hird. Like most people like him, he just thought he would never be caught. And his loyal followers and helpers in the media, politics etc refuse to see the truth of what happened as it will say just as much about themselves and their nature as it does about Hird.

One of the best post's I've had the pleasure in reading on this thread..Excellent summary highlighting the serious flaws in the AFL's handling of this saga..

Don't get caught up in the Murdoch bias..

The EFC & the AFL have failed the AFL community, & the Oz sporting public with their handling of the supplements saga..

Tim Lane wrote a very good piece in today's Age..

Australian sport's reputation on the line in Essendon saga

And you thought the first 16 months of the supplements scandal were messy.
Now the story may be as much about transactions involving some important Australian institutions – right up to the level of federal government – as about the players of a football club or two being caught in a doping scandal.

Limited documentation published in recent days, to my untrained eye, doesn't necessarily confirm ASADA gave a commitment to football's interested parties beyond what is in the WADA code. But the suggestion that it did has emerged. And while it's not clear precisely what transpired in the early weeks of the Essendon supplements inquiry, the interpretation has been made that it could have led to players giving self-incriminating evidence under a misapprehension this would enable them to escape penalty.

Legal pugilist and Western Bulldogs president Peter Gordon – albeit conflicted by the presence of a former Essendon player, Stewart Crameri, in his club's ranks – says ASADA should now withdraw its show cause notices.

An arguably more disturbing aspect of the week's revelations is the notion that the outcome of a supposedly credible investigation could be the subject of negotiation at the very outset of the investigative process. This surely would send a shiver through anyone concerned with proper process.


Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/australian-sports-reputation-on-the-line-in-essendon-saga-20140621-zsha3.html#ixzz35L4SLeLB

 

[Moral Decay]

Not rolling the dice at all, my old man was chairman of the board at a local level afl club, when there are scapegoats to be had and sweeping to be done, clubs and boards are extremely quick to allocate blame and default to it being the machinations of the few instead of a systemic issue. In the case where support services staff are the issue, that scapegoat are underlings + placating board members who otherwise were intending to step down irregardless (like the old man) or are inherently cancerous to the continuation of a solvent board (ie; the initial replacement, and legal actions against the club by several employees).

The doc is not absolved of any guilt, and it is proven he knew and didn't try all that hard to rock the establishment, there will however not be any royal commission to prove how many skeletons are in his closet, public opinion will lessen over time, and in the current climate, he'll be viewed as the less dirty of the bunch & whistleblower in the same way that Julian is revered by some as a revolutionary. He'll be retained, eventually fade out of the limelight and then it will simply end up that he help perpetuate the situation, but by then who will care all that much 5-10 years from now?

The victims, their families, and about 12 people and the pets they discuss world events with.

Rolling the dice is the Doc's position, how he is remembered at the club and how he thinks of himself, his business, he rolled the dice when he sent the email, he rolled again when he didn't follow up, he rolled the dice when he took court action and he rolled the dice when he decided to stay on. He like all of us make choices with perceived or hoped for outcomes, how many decisions have unforseen outcomes, plenty in my life. I'm pretty sure the current position of the EFC is something he didn't think would happen and whether he is held accountable for his role beyond the non penalty for bringing the game into disrepute only time will tell. Apparently every one at Essendon has spent a lot of time being shocked by what has happened.

While your point on scapegoating is well made and correct, it's behind the times. Essendon tried scapegoating and haven't thus far been able to get away with it, they've tried with Dank, The weapon, even the obfuscation of trying to make Demetriou the issue, now they're trying ASADA, thus far it's only dug the hole deeper. Nor have EFC tried to make the doc the scapegoat, they've kept the doc inside the tent pissing out, he'll be there until a new board comes in, a new board will have to clean shop properly. Within terms of the current board how much the legal action is based around protecting the board I don't know maybe someone with a legal background can explain the consequences for board members if EFC are found guilty of systematic doping. Baldur maybe?

This farce has been going for 16 months, and Little is saying he's happy to drag it out for another two years, and has the potential to change the nature of the AFL for ever, and will certainly change the EFC, it will be discussed for decades, I wonder who will write the first book? Whoever it is I'm sure they'll get sued.

While you are also correct about this; The victims, their families, and about 12 people and the pets they discuss world events with. It's the fate of all of us isn't it, the minor players in any drama are grist for the mill, mind you it is their lives and it's pretty important to them no matter how minor they are, though it's more likely to be the players that are forgotten than the admin.

 

[Baldur]

Ok. Is what I posted up legal or not?

Legal? Sure

Banned? I have no idea, but guess what, I am not an athlete I have no need to know. If I was I would know.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Essendon: Blah blah blah wasting time, it should have been resolved long ago , blah blah, taking too long.
ASADA ( finally): Show cause.
Essendon: Not until you go through this legal time-wasting bullshit.

My interpretation.
If Essendon can get off because they prove they weren't cheating, well I feel foolish, Australia owes them and James Hird an apology.
If Essendon can get off because an investigation is proven to be invalid due to some technicality : YOU ARE HORRIBLE LYING DRUGCHEATING SCUMM and thats what I'll be yelling at every footy game I attend as long as anyone involved with the club in 2012 remains with the club.

a) Prove innocence : OK
b) Take your punishment : OK
c) Cheat to get out of being penalized for cheating: NOK.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Now Timmy W thinks that people who bagged Essendon over the use of AOD should apologise.

The fact that ASADA have issued "show cause" for TB4 instead of AOD, is like saying someone should apologize for accusing someone of "killing someone by negligence", because they were charged for "murder" instead.

No apology Tim. You aren't stupid, take off your red black glasses.

 

[hayes]

Now Timmy W thinks that people who bagged Essendon over the use of AOD should apologise.

The fact that ASADA have issued "show cause" for TB4 instead of AOD, is like saying someone should apologize for accusing someone of "killing someone by negligence", because they were charged for "murder" instead.

No apology Tim. You aren't stupid, take of your red black glasses.

How's Carey agreeing with him as well? Unbelievable.

 

[Sheeza69]

How's Carey agreeing with him as well? Unbelievable.

You can compare the AFL with the Victorian Police, in that they all look out for each other & is known in certain circles as the brotherhood..
Even McLachlan is questioning now what ASADA's evidence is..! McLachlan is clearly cut from the same cloth as Demetriou, if you happen to catch On the Couch tonight..The AFL attempting to cut a deal with ASADA in the early days, will forever stain the AFL & the "boys" in charge of our competition..
But it's consistent with the integrity of the competition under Demetriou, when you consider the handling of the Demons & the Crows recent saga's that became a fiasco..The late Dean Bailey was the fall guy in the Demons tanking affair..

 

[hayes]

You can compare the AFL with the Victorian Police, in that they all look out for each other & is known in certain circles as the brotherhood..
Even McLachlan is questioning now what ASADA's evidence is..! McLachlan is clearly cut from the same cloth as Demetriou, if you happen to catch On the Couch tonight..The AFL attempting to cut a deal with ASADA in the early days, will forever stain the AFL & the "boys" in charge of our competition..

Don't have foxtel so I usually wait until it comes up on YouTube. If that's true then I'm just speechless.

 

[Sheeza69]

Don't have foxtel so I usually wait until it comes up on YouTube. If that's true then I'm just speechless.

One of his first remarks in his interview was describing the Dons peptides issue, as "the ASADA stuff"..
Mike Sheahan suggests now "there's a real chance the players will get off" & our new CEO's response was, "you must know more than I do, & we still don't know what the evidence is ?"..Healy does ask some tough questions of Gil re ASADA & you can understand the AFL's position, but we all know there is enough circumstantial evidence to mount a strong case against the Dons..

 

[SaintsSeptember]

How's Carey agreeing with him as well? Unbelievable.

While I respect some of Carey's opinions regarding "on field" football stuff, I still think most of his grey matter is below his waist.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Will be interesting as to how ASADA handle the Essendon legal action.
If ( and it may be the case ) the majority of their evidence is based on a paper trail, not related to the joint AFL/ASADA investigation, it would turn the tables a bit.

 

[Baldur]

One of his first remarks in his interview was describing the Dons peptides issue, as "the ASADA stuff"..
Mike Sheahan suggests now "there's a real chance the players will get off" & our new CEO's response was, "you must know more than I do, & we still don't know what the evidence is ?"..Healy does ask some tough questions of Gil re ASADA & you can understand the AFL's position, but we all know there is enough circumstantial evidence to mount a strong case against the Dons..

I was wondering if Mike has retired to delusion land.

 

[Ice-Wolf]

If I was the Essendon players and was involved in a clandestine injection program I think that I might be wishing that I was injected with the "Bad" Thymosin rather than the "Good" Thymosin that the club is saying they got if only for the reason that the "Good" Thymosin is a AIDS and STD treatment and I'd be worried if they started to give me an AIDS and STD treatment after injecting me with other stuff.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

If I was the Essendon players and was involved in a clandestine injection program I think that I might be wishing that I was injected with the "Bad" Thymosin rather than the "Good" Thymosin that the club is saying they got if only for the reason that the "Good" Thymosin is a AIDS and STD treatment and I'd be worried if they started to give me an AIDS and STD treatment after injecting me with other stuff.

I suspect that there isn't actually a credible/feasible source of the kind of quantities of "good" thymosin that Essendon would have used. Meanwhile we have charter talking about the "bad thymosin" and a compounding chemist squeeling his guts out about all the "bad" thymosin that Dank purchased for research. I would be interested in the disposition of all that "research stuff"

Meanwhile no-one except legitimate doctors and the like are bringing in the aids/std treatment.

 

[Mindtraveller]

If I was the Essendon players and was involved in a clandestine injection program I think that I might be wishing that I was injected with the "Bad" Thymosin rather than the "Good" Thymosin that the club is saying they got if only for the reason that the "Good" Thymosin is a AIDS and STD treatment and I'd be worried if they started to give me an AIDS and STD treatment after injecting me with other stuff.

The "good" Thymosin they're talking about is Thymomodulin which can be found in baby formula. Helps boost the immune system.

 

[ike2112]

Legal? Sure

Banned? I have no idea, but guess what, I am not an athlete I have no need to know. If I was I would know.

Im not an athlete nowadays, in the context of this subject. But I ran a 10k two weekends ago, so in theory could have been tested then and technically, by tenuous extension, am subject to WADA regulations.

I think it probably is banned, I am pretty sure it's a steroid cream, but I dont know for sure. I dont have the first idea how I would find out, short of going through the WADA list and checking each ingredient, but I know even that isnt a suitable method as some of the items have various names.
A few years ago, I asked a person who worked with the FdJ cycling team, and he said the only way to know for sure is to get it lab-checked. I pointed out that it wasnt a very good solution for amateurs, semi-pro, low budget pros etc (some new cyclists barely crack £18,000 a year salary) and he agreed, he gave an example of his local rugby team saying 'guess they just run that risk - they get tested far less, almost not at all, so never go through the cost and hassle to check what they're taking, and they'll probably always be fine'.

In any case, this has gone on a bit of a tangent. I was just pointing out its just not as simple as some people appear to think it is when it comes to keeping clear. A Dr will hand out Prednisolone if your hayfever is bad enough to swell your nose lining, in some places you can even get it over the counter, and thats a banned substance. With the Dons situation the players were not likely to have any chance to find out what they were being injected with other than asking the club.

 

[ike2112]

I know I'm coming over all hardball on this, and it's taken me a while to get to this place. We're all here because we love football, we played, we had dreams and the vast majority of us didn't come within a bulls roar, your compassion for the players is natural and recommends you, we can all imagine being in their position, your insight and experience I think genuinely reflect the situation most potential dopers find themselves in.

The contrasting situation that is at EFC, isn't one that is expected in an Aus. context, it's not a guy that's desperate to make it, a little lazy, a little silly, and it's taken me a while to think through it. It's systematic, brazen and of a magnitude in it's own way worse than cycling or East German swimmers, it isn't just what every one else is doing and culturally expected, nor was it imposed in a police state, the EFC and the players knowing the possible penalty chose doping and embraced it en masse when they had all the resources to understand what they were doing and ignored them.

Your own experience, your own temptations and reactions are a credit to you, particularly when the resources at your disposal were so much smaller you thought about it, you made mistakes, and the punishment that would have applied to you would have been onerous. You chose not to dope, how many thousands choose to not dope in comparison those that do.

What has happened at EFC is an order of magnitude greater and the sympathy shown for these players in the press and wider community is remarkable.

I agree with what you say about Essendon - I never thought of it that way, but they weren't following the crowd, they were plunging new depths (we think - I dont think I ever want to know how bad the drugs in sport problem is).

Just wondering here. Whats your thoughts on Zaharakis and Fletcher? Seems common perception is neither took an injection. But both knew it was going on. They could have blown the whistle on it all, but didn't.

 

[VDS66]

Their ficking doc could have blown the whistle on it. He should have quit there and then in protest, but he didn't.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Im not an athlete nowadays, in the context of this subject. But I ran a 10k two weekends ago, so in theory could have been tested then and technically, by tenuous extension, am subject to WADA regulations.

I think it probably is banned, I am pretty sure it's a steroid cream, but I dont know for sure. I dont have the first idea how I would find out, short of going through the WADA list and checking each ingredient, but I know even that isnt a suitable method as some of the items have various names.
A few years ago, I asked a person who worked with the FdJ cycling team, and he said the only way to know for sure is to get it lab-checked. I pointed out that it wasnt a very good solution for amateurs, semi-pro, low budget pros etc (some new cyclists barely crack £18,000 a year salary) and he agreed, he gave an example of his local rugby team saying 'guess they just run that risk - they get tested far less, almost not at all, so never go through the cost and hassle to check what they're taking, and they'll probably always be fine'.

In any case, this has gone on a bit of a tangent. I was just pointing out its just not as simple as some people appear to think it is when it comes to keeping clear. A Dr will hand out Prednisolone if your hayfever is bad enough to swell your nose lining, in some places you can even get it over the counter, and thats a banned substance. With the Dons situation the players were not likely to have any chance to find out what they were being injected with other than asking the club.

Just for fun go to google, and put in the product name and WADA. I picked a random one, "egoderm" 5 hits down was the ASADA 2008 anti-doping handbook.
ctl S and egoderm brought me to the product which had a tick ( OK to use ).

Not sure why the vicsport page that has it there doesn't have anything newer than 2009, but you'd still be more confident knowing it was at least legal then.

 

[Moral Decay]

I agree with what you say about Essendon - I never thought of it that way, but they weren't following the crowd, they were plunging new depths (we think - I dont think I ever want to know how bad the drugs in sport problem is).

Just wondering here. Whats your thoughts on Zaharakis and Fletcher? Seems common perception is neither took an injection. But both knew it was going on. They could have blown the whistle on it all, but didn't.

I really don't have an opinion on their not blowing the whistle, and it's really where the team rules apply, I'm sure they both know an immense amount about player indiscretions, but how bad does it have to be before a non involved player reacts? Time will tell, if there are no penalties then the get off scott free, if there are penalties of 2 to 4 years then questions will be asked.

At the moment they probably feel relieved, how long will that last and how they will feel at the end of this chapter and then at the end of their career who knows?

 

[Baldur]

Im not an athlete nowadays, in the context of this subject. But I ran a 10k two weekends ago, so in theory could have been tested then and technically, by tenuous extension, am subject to WADA regulations.

I think it probably is banned, I am pretty sure it's a steroid cream, but I dont know for sure. I dont have the first idea how I would find out, short of going through the WADA list and checking each ingredient, but I know even that isnt a suitable method as some of the items have various names.
A few years ago, I asked a person who worked with the FdJ cycling team, and he said the only way to know for sure is to get it lab-checked. I pointed out that it wasnt a very good solution for amateurs, semi-pro, low budget pros etc (some new cyclists barely crack £18,000 a year salary) and he agreed, he gave an example of his local rugby team saying 'guess they just run that risk - they get tested far less, almost not at all, so never go through the cost and hassle to check what they're taking, and they'll probably always be fine'.

In any case, this has gone on a bit of a tangent. I was just pointing out its just not as simple as some people appear to think it is when it comes to keeping clear. A Dr will hand out Prednisolone if your hayfever is bad enough to swell your nose lining, in some places you can even get it over the counter, and thats a banned substance. With the Dons situation the players were not likely to have any chance to find out what they were being injected with other than asking the club.

Again dozens of injections. Not a cream or a tablet because of bad hayfever. Dozens of injections, dozens of injections. Cannot be said enough. Should have rung alarm bells loud and clear.

 

[ike2112]

Again dozens of injections. Not a cream or a tablet because of bad hayfever. Dozens of injections, dozens of injections. Cannot be said enough. Should have rung alarm bells loud and clear.

You get perfectly legitimate things through injection too you know. I knew a guy who played professional football (soccer) who got shots for some sort of vitamin deficiency he had.
But yes I can't argue that injections and the obvious lack of governance around them, would be an issue for most people.