Analysis Our forward line - KPF depth?

[Nasty Penguin]

Disagree with a lot of that.

That's fine don't expect you to agree. But show me where I'm wrong?
Look at the form of Round 1 to now. Is it the anywhere near close???

He was our best forward for the first month and was a useful pinch hitter down back especially in Rd 1 when he shut Thomas down completely. No world beater, but there's absolutely potential there, and he'll be right in the mix when he hits VFL form after his quad injury.

Hardingham had one good game against North and out of the 6 he's played that's nothing special. Anyone can have one great game it's about consistent effort every week which is exactly where the problem lies. I did say the project hadn't worked as hoped didn't say it was a complete failure

Of the five guys you've listed, three have been BOG for us at least once this year, another has kicked 4 in a game, and the last is a first year player. Pretty ridiculous comment.

Exactly consistent effort. Well the last is actually Jackson Merrett and Zach is playing extremely good footy for a first year player. How is asking for players to play at the same high quality every week a ridiculous comment?

Wow...

Yup it's left field and maybe way left field but it's an idea not a solution.

 

[Nasty Penguin]

Oh and for those wailing on about Josh Jenkins we did get a pretty handy player in return. Besides it's like complaining about not having Kepler Bradley anymore.

 

[Ben the Gooner]

That's fine don't expect you to agree. But show me where I'm wrong?
Look at the form of Round 1 to now. Is it the anywhere near close???

Of course not, but I'm inclined to think Bomber's actually telling the truth, and that the midfield is largely to blame. Last week was the first game I'd attended since ANZAC Day, and the first game I'd seen from the wing since St Kilda. It gave me a pretty good insight into how shite the midfield has been. If you watch them at stoppages, it's a little embarrassing. One "highlight" for me was Heppell starting next to Parker, doing a blind turn as the ball was in the air, running forward then having Ryder clearly win the hitout and hit behind him. Parker got the clearance. Combine that with the poor decision making in terms of taking the extra handball and on two occasions that I can clearly remember dishing off from a mark 55m out to a bloke in traffic (once to Myers, once to Jobe), and you can see why the forwards aren't producing. Not to say they're blameless or anything, but the whole thing relies on the midfield being cleaner and smarter.

Hardingham had one good game against North and out of the 6 he's played that's nothing special. Anyone can have one great game it's about consistent effort every week which is exactly where the problem lies. I did say the project hadn't worked as hoped didn't say it was a complete failure

I'd argue a return of 2.0, 2.0, 3.0, 2.0, 0.2 is very consistent. His last two games (St Kilda (0.2) and Collingwood (0.0)) were not good, but the St Kilda game is seen in a totally different light if he kicks straight (and I'm pretty sure his first one crossed the line anyway), and it's no surprise to me that rumours of a quad injury popped up around that time.

I think if you were hoping for a 3 goal, 6 mark a game forward in the context of our midfield struggles, then the issue is probably more to do with expectations than performance.

Exactly consistent effort. Well the last is actually Jackson Merrett and Zach is playing extremely good footy for a first year player. How is asking for players to play at the same high quality every week a ridiculous comment?

It just seemed weird to me to single out a group of 5 players, given that of those 5, Chappy was our BOG v Hawthorn, Jackson Merrett v Carlton, Stanton v St Kilda, Winderlich kicked 4 v Carlton, and Zach Merrett has already outshone his first year expectations, even from within (I was told "he might take a few years"). Sure, Jackson has struggled over the last month and Chappy has totally forgotten how to kick, but I don't think that list of players is anywhere close to being the problem. A better example of where the problem lies - Zaka and Heppell have 5 goals between them. Stanton has kicked 3 on two occasions. Stanton and Jobe aside, the midfield hasn't been producing enough goals, and it's putting all the pressure on a forwardline which they're not even kicking to properly.

Yup it's left field and maybe way left field but it's an idea not a solution.

There's clearly a very good forward in Carlisle, as he's shown it in the past. IMO, it's better to persist and try and find that player (and I reckon we saw glimpses of it v Sydney) than it is to scrape the bottom of the barrel with Pears. If he can start kicking bags in the 2s, I'd be all for it, but I'm not banking on it.

 

[eth-dog]

Also Pears is injured

 

[Keystone agony]

All we need is Jenkins and Crameri

 

[Nasty Penguin]

Of course not, but I'm inclined to think Bomber's actually telling the truth, and that the midfield is largely to blame. Last week was the first game I'd attended since ANZAC Day, and the first game I'd seen from the wing since St Kilda. It gave me a pretty good insight into how shite the midfield has been. If you watch them at stoppages, it's a little embarrassing. One "highlight" for me was Heppell starting next to Parker, doing a blind turn as the ball was in the air, running forward then having Ryder clearly win the hitout and hit behind him. Parker got the clearance. Combine that with the poor decision making in terms of taking the extra handball and on two occasions that I can clearly remember dishing off from a mark 55m out to a bloke in traffic (once to Myers, once to Jobe), and you can see why the forwards aren't producing. Not to say they're blameless or anything, but the whole thing relies on the midfield being cleaner and smarter.

Hard to see this kind of stuff on TV. I take your point and agree the mids are partly to blame. Our delivery inside the 50 has been a problem for a while.

I'd argue a return of 2.0, 2.0, 3.0, 2.0, 0.2 is very consistent. His last two games (St Kilda (0.2) and Collingwood (0.0)) were not good, but the St Kilda game is seen in a totally different light if he kicks straight (and I'm pretty sure his first one crossed the line anyway), and it's no surprise to me that rumours of a quad injury popped up around that time.

I think if you were hoping for a 3 goal, 6 mark a game forward in the context of our midfield struggles, then the issue is probably more to do with expectations than performance.

Happy to agree I was off the mark with Hardingham.

It just seemed weird to me to single out a group of 5 players, given that of those 5, Chappy was our BOG v Hawthorn, Jackson Merrett v Carlton, Stanton v St Kilda, Winderlich kicked 4 v Carlton, and Zach Merrett has already outshone his first year expectations, even from within (I was told "he might take a few years"). Sure, Jackson has struggled over the last month and Chappy has totally forgotten how to kick, but I don't think that list of players is anywhere close to being the problem. A better example of where the problem lies - Zaka and Heppell have 5 goals between them. Stanton has kicked 3 on two occasions. Stanton and Jobe aside, the midfield hasn't been producing enough goals, and it's putting all the pressure on a forwardline which they're not even kicking to properly.

Was purely going off the guys named in that half forward role over the past couple of weeks. Zaka and Heppell do need to keep more goals and whilst Jobe and Stants contribute up forward when they can I feel they are of more value delivering inside 50 same goes for Goddard, although I do like him inside 50.

There's clearly a very good forward in Carlisle, as he's shown it in the past. IMO, it's better to persist and try and find that player (and I reckon we saw glimpses of it v Sydney) than it is to scrape the bottom of the barrel with Pears. If he can start kicking bags in the 2s, I'd be all for it, but I'm not banking on it.

Against the Swans Carlisle did what he showed last year in that he can be injected into the forward line for a short period of time and have an impact. What he lacks is the ability, desire, comprehension.... the word I'm looking for escapes me.... to do it for at least three quarters, four would be fantastic.
Was I incorrect in saying he has the tank to work his opponent over? Nevertheless we need to recruit to fill that position as I believe he'll go back if/when Fletcher retires.

 

[Pweter]

All we need is Jenkins and Crameri

+ Monfries

 

[Ben the Gooner]

Hard to see this kind of stuff on TV. I take your point and agree the mids are partly to blame. Our delivery inside the 50 has been a problem for a while.

Yeah, it really struck me given it had been nearly a month since I'd seen a game from that vantage point. Behind the goals at the G isn't really a good spot to analyse contested stuff.

Happy to agree I was off the mark with Hardingham.

I don't think he should be exempt from criticism, just that I wouldn't be writing him off.

Was purely going off the guys named in that half forward role over the past couple of weeks. Zaka and Heppell do need to keep more goals and whilst Jobe and Stants contribute up forward when they can I feel they are of more value delivering inside 50 same goes for Goddard, although I do like him inside 50.

That makes more sense. I think you can say we've consistently had someone, but we haven't had someone consistent.

Against the Swans Carlisle did what he showed last year in that he can be injected into the forward line for a short period of time and have an impact. What he lacks is the ability, desire, comprehension.... the word I'm looking for escapes me.... to do it for at least three quarters, four would be fantastic.
Was I incorrect in saying he has the tank to work his opponent over? Nevertheless we need to recruit to fill that position as I believe he'll go back if/when Fletcher retires

No doubt Carlisle's a long term defender, but we're a chance to win a flag in the short term if everything clicks. I don't think we can completely tank the CHF spot purely to put everyone into their favourite position.

I subscribe to the theory that Bomber isn't a complete moron, therefore there must be a reason (whether I agree with it or not) behind what he does. I think it's been attitudinal with Carlisle, as Bomber doesn't call his players out very often at all.

 

[hurlygurdy]

Of course not, but I'm inclined to think Bomber's actually telling the truth, and that the midfield is largely to blame. Last week was the first game I'd attended since ANZAC Day, and the first game I'd seen from the wing since St Kilda. It gave me a pretty good insight into how shite the midfield has been. If you watch them at stoppages, it's a little embarrassing. One "highlight" for me was Heppell starting next to Parker, doing a blind turn as the ball was in the air, running forward then having Ryder clearly win the hitout and hit behind him. Parker got the clearance. Combine that with the poor decision making in terms of taking the extra handball and on two occasions that I can clearly remember dishing off from a mark 55m out to a bloke in traffic (once to Myers, once to Jobe), and you can see why the forwards aren't producing. Not to say they're blameless or anything, but the whole thing relies on the midfield being cleaner and smarter.



I'd argue a return of 2.0, 2.0, 3.0, 2.0, 0.2 is very consistent. His last two games (St Kilda (0.2) and Collingwood (0.0)) were not good, but the St Kilda game is seen in a totally different light if he kicks straight (and I'm pretty sure his first one crossed the line anyway), and it's no surprise to me that rumours of a quad injury popped up around that time.

I think if you were hoping for a 3 goal, 6 mark a game forward in the context of our midfield struggles, then the issue is probably more to do with expectations than performance.



It just seemed weird to me to single out a group of 5 players, given that of those 5, Chappy was our BOG v Hawthorn, Jackson Merrett v Carlton, Stanton v St Kilda, Winderlich kicked 4 v Carlton, and Zach Merrett has already outshone his first year expectations, even from within (I was told "he might take a few years"). Sure, Jackson has struggled over the last month and Chappy has totally forgotten how to kick, but I don't think that list of players is anywhere close to being the problem. A better example of where the problem lies - Zaka and Heppell have 5 goals between them. Stanton has kicked 3 on two occasions. Stanton and Jobe aside, the midfield hasn't been producing enough goals, and it's putting all the pressure on a forwardline which they're not even kicking to properly.



There's clearly a very good forward in Carlisle, as he's shown it in the past. IMO, it's better to persist and try and find that player (and I reckon we saw glimpses of it v Sydney) than it is to scrape the bottom of the barrel with Pears. If he can start kicking bags in the 2s, I'd be all for it, but I'm not banking on it.

Hard to see this kind of stuff on TV. I take your point and agree the mids are partly to blame. Our delivery inside the 50 has been a problem for a while.

Happy to agree I was off the mark with Hardingham.

Was purely going off the guys named in that half forward role over the past couple of weeks. Zaka and Heppell do need to keep more goals and whilst Jobe and Stants contribute up forward when they can I feel they are of more value delivering inside 50 same goes for Goddard, although I do like him inside 50.

Against the Swans Carlisle did what he showed last year in that he can be injected into the forward line for a short period of time and have an impact. What he lacks is the ability, desire, comprehension.... the word I'm looking for escapes me.... to do it for at least three quarters, four would be fantastic.
Was I incorrect in saying he has the tank to work his opponent over? Nevertheless we need to recruit to fill that position as I believe he'll go back if/when Fletcher retires.

Bah! You're going soft Nasty... Where's the general vitriol and the sinking of the boot into Hardi? You will have to change your name to "Vanilla Penguin" at this rate!

 

[Nasty Penguin]

Bah! You're going soft Nasty... Where's the general vitriol and the sinking of the boot into Hardi? You will have to change your name to "Vanilla Penguin" at this rate!

Ha! Sometimes you need to admit when you are off the mark. The vitriol is still there just needs a bit more force to come out

 

[Despair]

Adam Scott is currently the #1 golfer in the world, but not even he could dream of having similar last 6 scores:

64,65,73,60,65,60

That's legit "Golden Bear" material.

 

[AtomicBlonde]

Still a complete ****ing shambles, it looked like a free-for-all tonight.

 

[rines]

I have to agree.. was very very nice to get the win.. but our forward line still didn't look that convincing.. although I did like only having the two talls down there.. seemed to give JD more room to move and leave more space for leads and encouraged the midfield to run the ball longer for better, deeper entries.

Looked more like last year though.. with multiple goal kickers and lots of mids rotating through there..

 

[theboxmike]

We seriously tend to do dumb things when going forward. Multiple times we had the ball at CHF with numbers running forward and instead we would kick on to a 5 on 5 situation. I mean why wouldn't you just keep running and handball to each other if your in that situation when theres no one around you? Sure I get it you feel "pressure" but it happened way to many times.

Our players need to learn a bit of context and sum up the situation don't just stick with one idea going forward and say that's what i'm going to do.

 

[eth-dog]

Another poor night, but how much difference does Bellchambers make to Daniher? Bellchambers was well held by Mohr and Rance the past 2 weeks, but that allowed Joe to get on top of blokes like Jaksch and Grimes. I firmly believe our best forward line is:

Chapman - Ambrose - Goddard/Watson etc
Daniher - Bellchambers - Winderlich

Bellchambers takes the gorilla KPD away, Daniher gets stuck with someone who isn't as strong 1-on-1, Ambrose works over his CHB up the ground as well as providing good forward pressure, Winderlich and Chappy being smart small forwavds and the rotating midfielders providing another awkward match-up for the opposition

 

[rines]

Another poor night, but how much difference does Bellchambers make to Daniher? Bellchambers was well held by Mohr and Rance the past 2 weeks, but that allowed Joe to get on top of blokes like Jaksch and Grimes. I firmly believe our best forward line is:

Chapman - Ambrose - Goddard/Watson etc
Daniher - Bellchambers - Winderlich

Bellchambers takes the gorilla KPD away, Daniher gets stuck with someone who isn't as strong 1-on-1, Ambrose works over his CHB up the ground as well as providing good forward pressure, Winderlich and Chappy being smart small forwavds and the rotating midfielders providing another awkward match-up for the opposition

I agree, TBell hasn't done a lot up forward, certainly not to level he produced last year.. but the difference to our structure is huge. We have looked much better for the last two weeks..

 

[frenchfri12]

I think if you were hoping for a 3 goal, 6 mark a game forward

AHEM

 

[lenny2013]

If we happen to go down this week, I think it's time to start planning life without Licka and Chappy.

If this transpires it'll be one or the other not both in the forward, if both are fit Licka to don the subs vest.

 

[bombermick]

Our forward line isn't functioning (hence losing with 69 I50s), but the delivering is equally bad. How many times did we kick straight to Dunn on the weekend?

 

[theboxmike]

Unfortunately Joe isn't going to be able to hold off defenders like Dunn in a mark contest just yet. That's why i'm firmly believing we need Hurley down there to give him at least a wrestle for the ball.

 

[Amen Corner]

Looking at a few games from last year to this year, the main differences to me are the actual entries themselves & what happens after the main contest occurs. There's no doubt that we're bombing more into the 50. This is very predictable to the opposition & they plan accordingly. The other thing that stands out to me is forward pressure. 3 of our top 4 leaders in defensive pressure last year aren't playing in this yeRs forward line, being Hurley, Kommer & Davey. It's alarming how many times the opposition just sweep the ball away from our 50 with overlap run & we give up a scoring chance more often than not at the other end. The problem is both midfield & forward personnel. Bellchambers, Ryder, Daniher and to a lesser extent Ambrose, apply little forward pressure after the marking contest and unfortunately Chappy and Winders don't seem to have the same will/pace to do it as they have in years past. Z Merrett is not too bad but seems to have to work a bit further up the ground and the resting mids be it Zaka, Goddard, Jobe or Stants generally don't do so well at it either. Not only does it not provide repeat scoring opportunities, but it provides the opposition with what they want. Teams like Geelong & Port thrive off this and will carve us up if it doesn't change in a hurry. I don't see that we have the personnel to do it but it certainly isn't losing the likes of Crameri & Jenkins that has created it.

 

[Yoda_]

The other thing that has really struck about our entries inside 50 is the depth of entries. We seem to really struggle getting the ball deep inside 50 (0 - 20m from goal) instead bombing the ball to that indifferent spot (25 - 40m) and hence we have struggled for marks.

I remember our game against Carlton and we were raving about our entries 'deep'. Carlisle, Joe, Chappy/Winders were dangerous. Now we are taking pot shots at goal from 40m+ .

 

[Alfredo Rojas]

JoeDaniher will continue develop

 

[Alfredo Rojas]

Hurley I'd keep back, Carylse will get better

 

[Alfredo Rojas]

Sadly think asada issue will be too much for the club to manage on field performances