Analysis Pies made mistakes.

[Good_Old]

What a compelling argument. I'm sold.

Just like all of yours.

 

[Markfs]

If the coach is as big on accepting responsibility as he preaches, he would acknowledge his part in Dawes' poor form by playing him out of position and trying to reprise a Leigh Brown role the competition had clearly moved past. Players have down years all the time and don't get axed. It's called keeping the faith. Buckley was simply too trigger happy (hmm I see a theme here) and I'm sure regrets it after the disasters of White and Lynch.

Totally agree with you here. Buckley showed the door to a very very good player and good coaches shouldnt do that. It's a bit like Josh Kennedy and Ben McGlynn leaving Hawthorn to go to Sydney but they are nowhere near the champion player that Dawsie is. I doubt either of them would get on the Hawthorn list these days. However, if they had have turned out half decent players then I'm sure that Clarko would have put his hand up and taken responsibility for the screw up.....

This is the problem with Buckley. He's so frigging arrogant that he thinks he's right even when the evidence says otherwise....

 

[rose jam]

I'm not quite that bullish. Didn't agree with the recruitment of Russell, Lynch, Young, White, Armstrong, S Buckley types. I can see the reason for it in that it eased the load and defered the supporter backlash seen on forums such as these. Just think it delayed the inevitable and the turn around.

Every team has these players, every one, from Hawthorn to Melbourne. Russell, Lynch, Armstrong and S Buckley (Malthouse recruit) cost nothing. Young and White can still be very valuable for us, they were selections we had to take.

If you want to look at people look at Daisy Thomas who didn't go into surgery when he should have and then screwed the next 3 years of his career because of it. Or Didak who went from AA to fringe player for the next 3 seasons. Or Shaw who turns out mid season over weight. Or Wellingham and Dawed who over valued their worth. Or Jolly, Brown, Ball, Leon, & Maxwell for getting old.
I mean seriously the 2010 team can't stay 24years old together for 10 years.

 

[rose jam]

Totally agree with you here. Buckley showed the door to a very very good player and good coaches shouldnt do that.....

If you're talking about Dawes I'm afrai you don't know what a good player is. Do you actually remember how he tries to mark a ball?

 

[jmac70]

If you're talking about Dawes I'm afrai you don't know what a good player is. Do you actually remember how he tries to mark a ball?

With his eyes closed.

 

[Good_Old]

If you're talking about Dawes I'm afrai you don't know what a good player is. Do you actually remember how he tries to mark a ball?

Rose, look at post creator, re-think the tone it's written in.

 

[Starcevich90]

Just like all of yours.

Seriously, that was quite ridiculous. If we axed players on the bronx-o-meter Cloke would have been delisted years ago.

 

[Markfs]

If you're talking about Dawes I'm afrai you don't know what a good player is. Do you actually remember how he tries to mark a ball?

Yes he had a few failings in 2012 but it was because Buckley played him out of position. If he had been in position, he would have dominated. And then Bucks shows him the door....It's clearly a mistake by Buckley. Just another illustration of his shortcomings.

 

[Markfs]

Rose, look at post creator, re-think the tone it's written in.

The tone in which it is written is the same tone that Rose is using. It's an expression of disgust with Buckley that he should arrogantly show Dawes the door after setting him an impossible task. Clarko didnt do that with Kennedy and McGlynn. He didnt show them the door. He just let them go out the door. It's a completely different exit...

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

I'm not quite that bullish. Didn't agree with the recruitment of Russell, Lynch, Young, White, Armstrong, S Buckley types. I can see the reason for it in that it eased the load and defered the supporter backlash seen on forums such as these. Just think it delayed the inevitable and the turn around.

Do you realise the Buckley/Russell/Armstrong types took up a grand total of one list spot?

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

Yes he had a few failings in 2012 but it was because Buckley played him out of position. If he had been in position, he would have dominated. And then Bucks shows him the door....It's clearly a mistake by Buckley. Just another illustration of his shortcomings.

On needs to ask why he was played out of position. And the answer is because if the list he inherited, in terms of rucks and mobile ruck options.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

FWIW I do think that Dawes was/is a better player than both Lynch and White but in reality would he really have made that much difference had he stayed? In White we have a slightly inferior version of Dawes whilst we have picked up a very promising young player in Broomhead. At his very best Dawes was a 30 goal per year 2nd tall. If we can establish Reid as a forward he will present a significant upgrade anyway.

Considering Reid kicked 22 goals in nine games theres a fair cahnce you are correct

 

[No SPIN]

Totally agree with you here. Buckley showed the door to a very very good player and good coaches shouldnt do that. It's a bit like Josh Kennedy and Ben McGlynn leaving Hawthorn to go to Sydney but they are nowhere near the champion player that Dawsie is. I doubt either of them would get on the Hawthorn list these days. However, if they had have turned out half decent players then I'm sure that Clarko would have put his hand up and taken responsibility for the screw up.....

This is the problem with Buckley. He's so frigging arrogant that he thinks he's right even when the evidence says otherwise....

That is not correct - Dawes felt threatened when Lynch was recruited. Instead of showing some semblance of fortitude and understand that most players in a team environment need to fight for their spots, he indicated he was not prepared to do that.
Under those circumstances, there was a mutual agreement that he should seek a trade.

If I was Buckley and found a young guy like DAWES lacked the confidence to back himself to hold his spot, against an aging "potential" replacement it would cause alarm bells.
If Dawes had the confidence to say - "no problem I understand I've been poor and the club needs options, but I'm backing myself to hold my spot", then that would have been a very health attitude that any coach would greatly value.

Effectively saying "I'm out of here", was very poor and so I can completely understand Bucks allowing Dawes to be traded.

Dawes leaving reveals more about him than Bucks.

 

[Markfs]

On needs to ask why he was played out of position. And the answer is because if the list he inherited, in terms of rucks and mobile ruck options.

well actually john ceglar was on the list ....and if buckley was a half decent coach, he would have got him to play at his current level...simple

 

[jackcass]

Every team has these players, every one, from Hawthorn to Melbourne. Russell, Lynch, Armstrong and S Buckley (Malthouse recruit) cost nothing. Young and White can still be very valuable for us, they were selections we had to take.

If you want to look at people look at Daisy Thomas who didn't go into surgery when he should have and then screwed the next 3 years of his career because of it. Or Didak who went from AA to fringe player for the next 3 seasons. Or Shaw who turns out mid season over weight. Or Wellingham and Dawed who over valued their worth. Or Jolly, Brown, Ball, Leon, & Maxwell for getting old.
I mean seriously the 2010 team can't stay 24years old together for 10 years.

As I said, I can see why they were recruited, just question the premise that "we had to take" them. Agree that they were predominantly low cost but equally they occupy a spot on the list and when we've had so much success with late/rookie picks (Toovey, Lumumba, Swan, Blair, Macaffer, Williams, Frost, Keeffe, Witts, Dwyer, Maxwell, Seedsman, Langdon) and a few untried potential gems (Marsh, Oxley, Martin), I'd prefer to go that way. It's just my opinion.

I'm not sure how the rest of your post is relevent to mine, I've always said the list needed revamping beyond 2010 GF. Won't buy into the Daisy surgery discussion. I'd always exhaust non-surgical options before going under the knife. Same for Scharenberg. Our opinions in this area are pure speculation though.

 

[SuperSub17]

If anyone can genuinely tell me that they would trade Broomhead back for Dawes right now then they have rocks in their head. That's not even mentioning White who we picked up as a result of that trade as well.

Seriously cannot believe some are suggesting we lost on that deal.

 

[Markfs]

If anyone can genuinely tell me that they would trade Broomhead back for Dawes right now then they have rocks in their head. That's not even mentioning White who we picked up as a result of that trade as well.

Seriously cannot believe some are suggesting we lost on that deal.

I think the key question is whether Buckley made a mistake.... and we've all agreed that he has. It's the sum of all these mistakes that led us to missing out on premierships and has dropped the quality of our playing list...

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

well actually john ceglar was on the list ....and if buckley was a half decent coach, he would have got him to play at his current level...simple

Ceglar is exactly the same age and development level as Witts and Grundy. I'm pleased hes done well elsewhere but theres only so many 21 year old ruckmen you can carry on your list.

 

[No SPIN]

I think the key question is whether Buckley made a mistake.... and we've all agreed that he has. It's the sum of all these mistakes that led us to missing out on premierships and has dropped the quality of our playing list...

Speak for yourself sport.
What are these mistakes that in total cost us a flag - given the ravages of age, cost us TAZ,BJ,Jolly,Leon, Krakouer,Didak.
Please make a case of how Bucks could have won a flag without these guys, or conversely why you feel he could have won a flag despite their age.

 

[jmac70]

Rose, look at post creator, re-think the tone it's written in.

 

[THATSGOLD]

I think a forward line of Cloke Reid and Dawes would've worked nicely. Pity it was never tried. Although I'm a huge advocate for Reid at CHB. 3 guys in their prime up forward I would've liked to see.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

I think a forward line of Cloke Reid and Dawes would've worked nicely. Pity it was never tried. Although I'm a huge advocate for Reid at CHB. 3 guys in their prime up forward I would've liked to see.

We tried a fwd line of Reid White and Cloke but Reid was injured. Its not for lack of trying. Whites carers stats stack up well against Dawes , and hes cheaper and can ruck. Neither are superstars. Cloke had a poor year this season but that was mostly due to poor midfield deleviery.

The olnly way to resolve this question of what to do with Reid is to have a fully fit Reid on the park. And if hes fully fit he will play at AA level....at eitrher end of the ground.

Theres some gross underrating on this board about the impact of Reids unavialbility to the team

 

[THATSGOLD]

We tried a fwd line of Reid White and Cloke but Reid was injured. Its not for lack of trying. Whites care rstats stack up well against Dawes , and hes cheaper and can ruck. The olnly way to resolve this question id to have a fully fit Reid on the park. And if hes fully fit he will play at AA level....at eitrher end of the ground.

Lol White.

 

[Good_Old]

Lol White.

Lol Dawes.

 

[jmac70]

I think a forward line of Cloke Reid and Dawes would've worked nicely. Pity it was never tried. Although I'm a huge advocate for Reid at CHB. 3 guys in their prime up forward I would've liked to see.

Perhaps we could have traded Dawes and a pick for Clark.