Opinion Pies vs Tigers

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stew42

stew42

Club Legend
Sydney Swans - George Hewett Player Sponsor 2017 A Star Wars Fan Zombie Lover Pokemon is Life Sydney Swans - Callum Mills Player Sponsor 2016 Shiny Penny
Feb 4, 2015
1,102
1,305
AFL Club
Sydney
Other Teams
Fulham FC, Trinity College FC
With the whole thing about Treloar saying the Pies list is better than Tigers, this led to me in a Twitter debate about the state of both teams youth setup. I argued that Pies youth is miles ahead (no pun intended) of Richmond's.
Players 22 and under
Collingwood
Taylor Adams 61 games
Jack Crisp 40 games
Tim Broomhead 19 games
Brodie Grundy 41 games
Tom Langdon 41 games
Jackson Ramsey 7 games
Brendon Abbott (R) 0 games
Matt Scharenberg 4 games
Jon Marsh 5 games
James Aish 32 games
Darcy Moore 9 games
Jordan De Goey 16 games
Matt Goodyear 0 games
Brayden Maynard 9 games

vs
Richmond


Elton, Todd 2
Townsend, Jacob 28
Ellis, Brandon 88
Mcintosh, Kamdyn 23
Vlastuin, Nick 61
Mcbean, Liam 2
Drummond, Nathan 1
Lennon, Ben 16
Short, Jayden (R) 0
McKenzie, Reece 0
Soldo, Ivan (R) 0
Butler, Daniel 0
Castagna, Jason (R) 0
Menadue, Connor 5
Ellis, Corey 6

It's no contest, right!?!?!?!?!
 
You realise you need to take into account whether a team has had a need to play younger players more often than necessary

Richmond have been the more stable side in the last 3 years, has finished above Collingwood and has not had a need to rest older players to play the youngsters. When a team knows it can not play finals it selects youth

That said it is too early to rate 1st and 2nd year players

Also, hope you realise Collingwood has traded their 1st round picks for 2015 and 2016, whereas Richmond has kept theirs
 
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stew42 said:
With the whole thing about Treloar saying the Pies list is better than Tigers, this led to me in a Twitter debate about the state of both teams youth setup. I argued that Pies youth is miles ahead (no pun intended) of Richmond's.
Players 22 and under
Collingwood
Taylor Adams 61 games
Jack Crisp 40 games
Tim Broomhead 19 games
Brodie Grundy 41 games
Tom Langdon 41 games
Jackson Ramsey 7 games
Brendon Abbott (R) 0 games
Matt Scharenberg 4 games
Jon Marsh 5 games
James Aish 32 games
Darcy Moore 9 games
Jordan De Goey 16 games
Matt Goodyear 0 games
Brayden Maynard 9 games

vs
Richmond


Elton, Todd 2
Townsend, Jacob 28
Ellis, Brandon 88
Mcintosh, Kamdyn 23
Vlastuin, Nick 61
Mcbean, Liam 2
Drummond, Nathan 1
Lennon, Ben 16
Short, Jayden (R) 0
McKenzie, Reece 0
Soldo, Ivan (R) 0
Butler, Daniel 0
Castagna, Jason (R) 0
Menadue, Connor 5
Ellis, Corey 6

It's no contest, right!?!?!?!?!
Click to expand...

Richmond's 19-23 y.o senior listed players for 2016: 16 players, 440 games experience, 27.5 games per player on average.
Collingwood's 19-23 y.o senior listed players for 2016: 19 players, 618 games experience, 32.52 games per player on average.

Richmond's 24-27 y.o senior listed players for 2016: 17 players, 1736 games experience, 102.11 games per player on average.
Collingwood's 24-27 y.o senior listed players for 2016: 11 players, 1269 games experience, 115.36 games per player on average.

Richmond's 28+ y.o senior listed players for 2016: 3 players, 593 games experience, 197.6 games per player on average.
Collingwood's 28+ y.o senior listed players for 2016: 4 players, 778 games experience, 194.5 games per player on average.

I've left out rookie listed players, and I've stuck to the main senior lists here.

The list profiles are pretty similar tbh, based on these numbers.

Tigers have a few extra in that middle category, however many of those extra numbers are purely depth players to cover for injuries to the main squad (i.e Lloyd, Morris, Hampson, etc), and this is demonstrated by the fact that the "experience per player" number is much higher for Collingwood's 11, than it is for Richmond's 17.

This tells me that the clubs are pretty much at the same stage of their list build, except for one major point of difference, that difference being the philosophy of how to use the last 5 or 6 spots on the list.

The Pies obviously go with the "raw, unproven youth" path, whilst Richmond go with the "mature-aged experience and ready-made cover for injuries" path for those list spots.

Both clubs still have a very similar looking Top 30 though, in terms of age and experience, which tells me that Richmond are in better shape, because that Top 30, whilst still developing, has been a finalist for the past 3 straight seasons, whilst the Top 30 of Collingwood hasn't been able to win more than half their games in the past couple of seasons.

The only thing in Collingwood's favour is that they're more likely to unearth a hidden gem or two from unproven kids, however if they're relying on that to overtake Richmond, they're gambling big time there.

EDIT: I posted this in another thread about this topic, but thought it would be relevant as a reply to this one too. :)
 

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stew42 said:
With the whole thing about Treloar saying the Pies list is better than Tigers, this led to me in a Twitter debate about the state of both teams youth setup. I argued that Pies youth is miles ahead (no pun intended) of Richmond's.
Players 22 and under
Collingwood
Taylor Adams 61 games
Jack Crisp 40 games
Tim Broomhead 19 games
Brodie Grundy 41 games
Tom Langdon 41 games
Jackson Ramsey 7 games
Brendon Abbott (R) 0 games
Matt Scharenberg 4 games
Jon Marsh 5 games
James Aish 32 games
Darcy Moore 9 games
Jordan De Goey 16 games
Matt Goodyear 0 games
Brayden Maynard 9 games
Click to expand...
Marley Williams (22yo) is certainly one of Collingwood's better rated players in this age category. Treloar himself is still only 22 and makes this list of names look even more exciting. Abbott was delisted recently BTW.

Adams, Crisp, Grundy, Langdon, Treloar and Williams were all named in the AFLPA 22Under22 Squad this year. B. Ellis and Vlastuin were the Richmond players named.
 
ARES said:
You realise you need to take into account whether a team has had a need to play younger players more often than necessary

Richmond have been the more stable side in the last 3 years, has finished above Collingwood and has not had a need to rest older players to play the youngsters. When a team knows it can not play finals it selects youth

That said it is too early to rate 1st and 2nd year players

Also, hope you realise Collingwood has traded their 1st round picks for 2015 and 2016, whereas Richmond has kept theirs
Click to expand...

Traded them to get a midfielder who'd be your best player in a few seasons time.

While Richmond kept a likely pick 12 again... big deal.
 
Oh yeah I definitely agree that the Tigers list is better set for right now. However is it enough to win a flag? I'm not convinced yet. And once that window closes...
One thing I am convinced about is the superiority of the Pies' youth. In those players I listed above are what, six first round draft picks? Including Grundy, who I reckon will be one of the best ruckman of the next generation, along with NicNat. Plus there is quality at all ends of the ground. Any team would love to have Treloar, Adams and Aish.

Who could you say the same with those Richmond players? Brandon Ellis is elite, I'll grant you. Vlastuin looks like a B-grade player, good at doing his role, but can't break a game apart. EllisJnr and Menadue might be something, but too early to tell. Townsend could be good, but for someone who only played one game in 2015...? Lennon needs consistent game time, then he could be decent. Players like Elton and "Stringy" McBean won't cut it in the long term. The only player who I can say with confidence is/will be a star is Ellis. The rest are very much in the air. Whereas the Pies young'uns are already living up to their potential.

Wow, I'm actually the worst Swans fan ever. Wait, Eddie's a d**k. There, now I feel much better :p
 
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stew42 said:
Oh yeah I definitely agree that the Tigers list is better set for right now. However is it enough to win a flag? I'm not convinced yet. And once that window closes...
One thing I am convinced about is the superiority of the Pies' youth. In those players I listed above are what, six first round draft picks? Including Grundy, who I reckon will be one of the best ruckman of the next generation, along with NicNat. Plus there is quality at all ends of the ground. Any team would love to have Treloar, Adams and Aish.

Who could you say the same with those Richmond players? Brandon Ellis is elite, I'll grant you. Vlastuin looks like a B-grade player, good at doing his role, but can't break a game apart. EllisJnr and Menadue might be something, but too early to tell. Townsend could be good, but for someone who only played one game in 2015...? Lennon needs consistent game time, then he could be decent. Players like Elton and "Stringy" McBean won't cut it in the long term. The only player who I can say with confidence is/will be a star is Ellis. The rest are very much in the air. Whereas the Pies young'uns are already living up to their potential.

Wow, I'm actually the worst Swans fan ever. Wait, Eddie's a d**k. There, now I feel much better :p
Click to expand...
Well obviously, and neither are we. Neither should any team until they have actually done it.
What I do know is that we are in a position to finish top 4 over the next few years, and when you are in that position you give yourself the opportunity to have a crack at a flag. The rest comes down to form at the time, good trading, good injury run and a bit of luck of the draw.
 
How is this even an argument, not only is the quality of our young players significantly better than Richmond's, we also bat far deeper. Do Richmond have any young players in the same class as Treloar, Moore, De Goey or Grundy?

The fact the best argument they've seemed to come up with is that they finished higher on the ladder in 2015 is telling imo.
 
stew42 said:
Oh yeah I definitely agree that the Tigers list is better set for right now. However is it enough to win a flag? I'm not convinced yet. And once that window closes...
One thing I am convinced about is the superiority of the Pies' youth. In those players I listed above are what, six first round draft picks? Including Grundy, who I reckon will be one of the best ruckman of the next generation, along with NicNat. Plus there is quality at all ends of the ground. Any team would love to have Treloar, Adams and Aish.

Who could you say the same with those Richmond players? Brandon Ellis is elite, I'll grant you. Vlastuin looks like a B-grade player, good at doing his role, but can't break a game apart. EllisJnr and Menadue might be something, but too early to tell. Townsend could be good, but for someone who only played one game in 2015...? Lennon needs consistent game time, then he could be decent. Players like Elton and "Stringy" McBean won't cut it in the long term. The only player who I can say with confidence is/will be a star is Ellis. The rest are very much in the air. Whereas the Pies young'uns are already living up to their potential.

Wow, I'm actually the worst Swans fan ever. Wait, Eddie's a d**k. There, now I feel much better :p
Click to expand...

Ellis is elite?

Really?

I mean, I think of a very small group of players (Fyfe, Ablett, Buddy etc) when I hear the word "elite" and Brandon Ellis doesn't look like he'll ever reach those heights. I'm not saying he's no good, because he is a good player, but elite mayyyyyy be stretching it.

I know Richmond fans that think he's not even any good so your opinion on him is surprising. :p
 
CasuallyDressed said:
Ellis is elite?

Really?

I mean, I think of a very small group of players (Fyfe, Ablett, Buddy etc) when I hear the word "elite" and Brandon Ellis doesn't look like he'll ever reach those heights. I'm not saying he's no good, because he is a good player, but elite mayyyyyy be stretching it.

I know Richmond fans that think he's not even any good so your opinion on him is surprising. :p
Click to expand...
For his age group, he's the best outside mid there is. Besides, I had to say something nice about Richmond :p
 

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The Dice Man said:
Was listening to finey on SEN this afternoon and he tipped the pies as premiers this year. Their midfield is extremely dangerous. Back line is seriously questionable, but if they click this year it could happen for them.
Click to expand...
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Schraderbrau said:
How is this even an argument, not only is the quality of our young players significantly better than Richmond's, we also bat far deeper. Do Richmond have any young players in the same class as Treloar, Moore, De Goey or Grundy?

The fact the best argument they've seemed to come up with is that they finished higher on the ladder in 2015 is telling imo.
Click to expand...

Yes we know finishing higher on the ladder is not the Collingwood way, but surprisingly most people, apart from Bucks and Chins of course, rate teams and coaches by the position they finish on the ladder.

Of course you could also add the fact that the last time we played each other resulted in an 89 point win to Richmond.
 
Tiger2709 said:
Yes we know finishing higher on the ladder is not the Collingwood way, but surprisingly most people, apart from Bucks and Chins of course, rate teams and coaches by the position they finish on the ladder.

Of course you could also add the fact that the last time we played each other resulted in an 89 point win to Richmond.
Click to expand...
91 points, get your facts right! :p
 
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