Player development, or lack thereof...

[PumpyChowdown]

I wish to open a discussion on a crucial element of any sporting organisation, and one that I feel has been overlooked with people (rightly so) focusing on our List Management and our Recruitment (more about these two later).

In my opinion, with the exception of Melbourne, no club in the last decade has been so disastrously bad at developing their lists as Carlton. Player, after player, after player, after player either fails to make the grade, or treads water and doesn't come on and doesn't reach his potential. This isn't just the odd player here and there, it is across the list. The players that have gone on to surpass their expectations when drafted can be counted on one hand - and unfortunately most of those players are now at other clubs.

Is it just luck that teams such as Sydney, Geelong and Hawthorn can seemingly get kids up and going in a couple of seasons? I don't think so. These teams have structures in place. They have systems and programs in place to develop their players, they have leadership, they have training and education that allow new recruits to rapidly learn and develop the skills necessary to become regular Senior AFL players. It is apparent that we do not have these pathways and programs in place, and we haven't had them for some time.

Recruiting vs. List Management vs Development

Quite rightly every man and his dog are giving us a bake about our Recruiting and List Management. It is well documented that our List Management, and trading has been abysmal. We are also copping a flogging about our recruitment. Over the summer I looked at every teams drafts from 2004 to 2010 and rated each player based on their output. Surprisingly, our drafting was just about on the national average success rate. Even more surprising was how poorly Sydney had performed in the draft, well below the national average. The difference however was that when the Swans got it right, they got it REALLY right and drafted guns. The other major difference is Sydney's trading and List Management is second to none. Just about all their trades are gold. Table below:

It is folly to focus on only one area the three mentioned and I believe too many people are merely looking at our recruiting, without seeing the bigger picture and without factoring in Development. How many now former Carlton players would have gone on to have long and successful careers had their name been called by a different team on their draft night?

It is abundantly clear that we are not developing our players at all. So, I ask those who are more in the know that me the following:

• Why is this?
• What needs to be done to correct this?
• Is there a major disconnect between the Seniors and the Northern Blues?

If we are to rebuild, and I certainly hope we are, then a comprehensive overhaul of everything related to Player Development must happen NOW! Hughes and Rogers are gone, so hopefully we can start really nailing some drafts. SOS has been brought in as List Manager so perhaps now we can start performing at the Trade table, but I still see no action on the Player Development front.

It's a very long haul back to the top of the mountain, but an holistic approach to Recruitment, List Management and Player Development must be implemented. Do others also feel this way, or am I off target?

 

[Red Bull]

The Northern Blues seems to be a killing field for our youth .
Many clubs are now running their own seconds team in the VFL and this makes sense re development with the whole list being on the same page and under Carlton's control .
Obviously this costs $$$ but would seem to be the desirable way to go .
If only we had rich benefactors willing to make meaningful contributions for the benefit of the club ...

 

[LordLucifer]

You are correct, our player development had been diabolical.

However, what has made it even worse is that players have been brought to the club with extremely limited skills meaning that we are working off a very low baseline to start from.

The question you have to ask yourself though is "what is player development ?"

Once you have a description or a definition of that phrase then you will have a clearer picture of who has been developed and by how much.

 

[DaVillaBlues]

If one is to be brutally honest, this has been (arguably) a problem at our club for nigh on 20 years, dating back to 1997 onwards .. The club, wrongly didn't realize that footy had changed, we kept on topping up with recycled former great players at the end of their career, McGuane, Mansfield, O'Reiley , and later on, when we got smashed by salary cap sanctions, Pagan did the same, only recycled player he bought over that was a success was Heath Scotland (I no longer consider that grub Nick Stevens a Carlton player, as far as I'm concerned, he never played for us in that mind)

The club has never really had a concerted and dedicated effort to build via the draft until now (and frankly, I am starting to think picking up Tutt may have been a mistake, an untried kid from the TAC Cup/SANFL/VFL may have been better)

Hawthorn had the luxury of bringing in several recycled players over the years, because they had a solid core that they drafted/developed themselves .
We don't..
We should have a blanket ban on bringing in recycled players over the next three years, and just draft TAC CUP/WAFL/SANFL players.

And frankly, I feel we're much better off playing a lad we drafted (Watto) in the 22 then Liam Jones.

Its the recycling of other clubs unwanted players that's holding us back. The recruitment of Warnock from Freo ended up costing us an AA ruckman in Sam Jacobs (for example)

 

[MrsEddieBetts]

If one is to be brutally honest, this has been (arguably) a problem at our club for nigh on 20 years, dating back to 1997 onwards .. The club, wrongly didn't realize that footy had changed, we kept on topping up with recycled former great players at the end of their career, McGuane, Mansfield, O'Reiley , and later on, when we got smashed by salary cap sanctions, Pagan did the same, only recycled player he bought over that was a success was Heath Scotland (I no longer consider that grub Nick Stevens a Carlton player, as far as I'm concerned, he never played for us in that mind)

The club has never really had a concerted and dedicated effort to build via the draft until now (and frankly, I am starting to think picking up Tutt may have been a mistake, an untried kid from the TAC Cup/SANFL/VFL may have been better)

Hawthorn had the luxury of bringing in several recycled players over the years, because they had a solid core that they drafted/developed themselves .
We don't..
We should have a blanket ban on bringing in recycled players over the next three years, and just draft TAC CUP/WAFL/SANFL players.

And frankly, I feel we're much better off playing a lad we drafted (Watto) in the 22 then Liam Jones.

Its the recycling of other clubs unwanted players that's holding us back. The recruitment of Warnock from Freo ended up costing us an AA ruckman in Sam Jacobs (for example)

Bet you'd lift your blanket ban on trades if Sloane was up for coming to Carlton

 

[DaVillaBlues]

Bet you'd lift your blanket ban on trades if Sloane was up for coming to Carlton

Yep, but lets be honest, why would any big name star like Sloane want to come to us right now, Mick was right in that regard ..

If we can pick up another young gem like Docherty from another club, I would be happy with that, otherwise, I feel its time we stopped picking up the likes of Tutt and Jones and just start developing and drafting our own young kids better ..

 

[BM123]

Why hasn't Menzel won the brownlow yet?

 

[checkpoints]

Yep, but lets be honest, why would any big name star like Sloane want to come to us right now, Mick was right in that regard ..

If we can pick up another young gem like Docherty from another club, I would be happy with that, otherwise, I feel its time we stopped picking up the likes of Tutt and Jones and just start developing and drafting our own young kids better ..

Would love to get Tom Mitchell. Imagine if we could manufacture a trade with the Swans for him. Would be an instant best 22 player for us. He would also lessen the burden on Judd.

 

[jj1978]

Would love to get Tom Mitchell. Imagine if we could manufacture a trade with the Swans for him. Would be an instant best 22 player for us. He would also lessen the burden on Judd.

At this point would not be surprised if Tom Mitchell is gone from the Swans next year... but also I bet if a Port, Hawks, Geelong etc had come knocking to him last year when it was "rumoured" he was interested in leaving the Swans, I bet he would've gone. I don't think he wants to come to us while we're down at the moment (as Mick alluded).

 

[De Iulio2Wiggins]

Would love to get Tom Mitchell. Imagine if we could manufacture a trade with the Swans for him. Would be an instant best 22 player for us. He would also lessen the burden on Judd.

The only centre position that Judd will be holding next year is front-and-centre poolside for half price mojitos at some resort in the Bahamas

 

[passmark]

Why hasn't Menzel won the brownlow yet?

....or played some serious minutes in the midfield.
........or why has it taken till now to get Cas a kicking coach.
.........or why do we not select our 194 centremetre clearance monster to play at stoppages.

 

[Blue Pulse]

One definition of development would be to bring in a player and have him depart as a player who has improved on his skills and has got the most out of his abilities on a consistent basis.
Hawthorn who still operate with Box Hill don't seem to be having too many problems with their setup and probably would have won last years flag if they didn't use the game for Rioli's fitness test. They had numerous injuries but could still fill these holes with unknown players from their VFL side who were able to step straight into their top side and perform at a high level.
We have had a number of players over the years walk in and out our doors with nothing to show for it. Aaron Joesph's first year at the club was a ripper, after that he steadily declined, why? He is one player who can claim that he has had the better of Rioli on a number of occasions (at least 3 that I can remember)
I've been banging on about our development for years, young Buckley should be a regular now with what he showed last year, Cas's kicking dramas should not have gone on this long, Touhy has stagnated, Warnock has gone backwards, where's Nick Graham at???
Someone help us

 

[gbatman]

Well firstly I don't think anyone has missed out on making it as an AFL player because of played development. Where I notice player development issues are with the players who have made it but aren't playing to their full potential. For example Kreuzer not being a good mark/forward, Murphy could be a better forward, Gibbs could have become midfield capable a lot earlier. Casboult with his kicking, as dificult as that will be to correct it hasn't been done yet and that's if it's achievable. Walker I think was a player who was only developed well by luck in the end. I'm seeing players developed differently now since Malthouse arrived, they are playing multiple positions in the VFL for a start, I think our development of our three Irish players has been quite good.

It's easy to draft well and everyone put it down to player development as to why some clubs continually have good young players coming in when really it's just good drafting of players with talent and attitude. We've failed to draft players wit ability and attitude a lot of the time.

We could have probably taken more time to develope such players as mentioned but it's really hard when you have a poor and thin team to throw players around and educate them on other positions when you're playing to win games and forced to play players in their best position and only best position where as players who play for the Swans or Hawks etc can come in and afford to spend a little time up forward and/or back and/or midfield because it wont effect the team's result like it might with poor/shallow team like ours.

 

[SBYM]

The only centre position that Judd will be holding next year is front-and-centre poolside for half price mojitos at some resort in the Bahamas

Pfft!!! As if...

(Juddy won't go to some shithole that discounts its drinks)

 

[De Iulio2Wiggins]

We have had a number of players over the years walk in and out our doors with nothing to show for it. Aaron Joesph's first year at the club was a ripper, after that he steadily declined, why? He is one player who can claim that he has had the better of Rioli on a number of occasions (at least 3 that I can remember)

Players with limited ability get found out within a year or two. Clubs have files on opposition players (or, at least, they should): these are Player X's strengths, these are his weaknesses. Once clubs got a lock on how Joseph tagged, they could instruct the player he was tagging on how to break Joseph's tag and put the pressure back on him. Good players can evolve their game to combat this; average players can't, or they need to be in a strong team where their deficiencies are masked by the overall pressure their team is placing on the opposition.

Drafting is one piece of the puzzle. Good teams develop well, coach well, and have a culture of success (that feeds into itself). They attract players from other teams who want to taste success - Hawthorn lost Buddy (being one of the few teams who could comfortably cover the loss of an elite key forward), but picked up Gibson, Burgoyne, Hale, Gunston, Simpkin, Lake, Spangher, McEvoy and Frawley in return, mostly from struggling clubs.

Our drafting and development is poor. Our coaching has been good, but a huge problem is that we have an entrenched culture of failure. A huge percentage of the game takes place above the neck, and we are very fragile there. The Hawks know that being behind in a game is a temporary state for them. I think our boys have come to expect it. I always remember Fevola said, round 19, 2008 vs Port Adelaide, that the boys went into 3/4 time not sure how to react, because they were ten goals up and it was the first time in a long time they could remember being in an unbeatable position in-between quarters. The Hawks don't know how to lose; we struggle to know how to win.

 

[thebluelagoon]

... so after 5 years of looking we have finally found the kicking guru... welcome to carlton Big Sav

 

[newblueo]

development huh? half our list is made up ex rookies who have gone onto being best 22...

 

[PumpyChowdown]

You are correct, our player development had been diabolical.

However, what has made it even worse is that players have been brought to the club with extremely limited skills meaning that we are working off a very low baseline to start from.

The question you have to ask yourself though is "what is player development ?"

Once you have a description or a definition of that phrase then you will have a clearer picture of who has been developed and by how much.

Player development means - to me at least - that a player plays his career at least equal to where he was drafted. Good development means that a player exceeds his draft position. Ask yourself "Have they lived up to their draft position? Have they been a regular member of the 22 and have they regularly influenced games?"

Let us then look at our current list (excluding new draftees as it's too early to make a judgement call on them) and compare it to the benchmark team, Hawthorn. I will grade players as follows:

• Fail - either he was a poor draft choice or did not develop into the player he could have been
• Pass - plays to his expected abilities but remains an average/unremarkable player relative to his expected output
• Success - has exceeded his expected abilities and gone on to be an outstanding player

Players new to the club I've not graded as opinions are still being formed as to their output for the Carlton FC.

2015 Carlton Playing List assessment

A lot of fails in there, and a lot of very costly draft picks among those fails. Now I'm not saying that Murph and Hendo can't or won't come good, but based on their current output and they output last year, neither of them are living up to their expectations. In fact, both are going backwards at a scary rate of knots.

Our success stories mostly come from a low base. Bell, White, Carrots, Tuohy and Jamison are all Rookies. Judd was already the best player in the game when he came to us so we can't really be credited with developing him. That leaves Simmo. Glorious, fearless Simmo.

Now, let's compare:

2015 Hawthorn Playing List assessement

A marked difference. Massive amount of successful players. Very few failures. Also note their Trades. They have just about hit a home run with every single trade they've done.

The difference couldn't be any more stark. When it comes to List Management we are basket cases, losing more often than winning, and our player development is essentially non-existant.

How can we change this? It is a cultural issue in the club? Do the Board and the power-brokers just expect us to win games? Why has it got this poor and why has it been neglected for so long.

This s**t really makes me furious because it's so Goddamn obvious.

 

[PumpyChowdown]

development huh? half our list is made up ex rookies who have gone onto being best 22...

And the other half is made up of 1st round draft picks who are s**t.

 

[HBF]

... so after 5 years of looking we have finally found the kicking guru... welcome to carlton Big Sav

At least it's a step in the right direction.
Baby steps.

 

[ItsAllAboutMe]

We had David Parkin and then followed on by Wayne Brittan who were both considered the best in the business when it came to developing talent.. sure the game has moved on from then but it just seems that when we had the 3 first picks in a row Murph, Gibbs & Kruezar we just expected to waltz into a dynasty and didn't need to worry about the little things like development.... Remember the brainiac decision to make Bryce Gibbs part of the leadership group in his first season because he was just sooo good and going to be a superstar from the start..

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

We had David Parkin and then followed on by Wayne Brittan who were both considered the best in the business when it came to developing talent..

I don't recall that reputation for Parko and Britts. Certainly by the time Parko left and Brittain replaced him, Carlton was an aging team with few quality youngsters coming through and looking for top up players. Parko was a motivator, Britts a tactician and mentoring type IIRC.

Our '95 flag had guns signed before the draft in Kernahan and Bradley, a gun father/son selection in Silvagni. Players traded in from other clubs, Williams, Madden, Manton, Rice, Pearce, Clape.

We still had our home grown boys and drafted boys, Brown, Kouta, Sexton, Hanna, Christou, Dean, McKay, Campo etc, so we were not too shabby. We just had good leadership and it made it easier for draftees to come in and learn their craft. These days they come in and are expected to be the saviours. Our leaders now came in when we were as low as we could go. They have no success blueprint. Only Judd knows what it takes and he's been trying his hardest to pass that on to us to no avail.

 

[MrsEddieBetts]

We had David Parkin and then followed on by Wayne Brittan who were both considered the best in the business when it came to developing talent.. sure the game has moved on from then but it just seems that when we had the 3 first picks in a row Murph, Gibbs & Kruezar we just expected to waltz into a dynasty and didn't need to worry about the little things like development.... Remember the brainiac decision to make Bryce Gibbs part of the leadership group in his first season because he was just sooo good and going to be a superstar from the start..

To me, Parko is more representative of a coach who believed in mental development and development off field, i.e. creating a team of well-rounded men, not just footballers, than one who spent the majority of his time developing them on field. I've heard him speak several times on the subject and he believes in honest feedback as a tool and I guess relied on his natural motivational and leadership abilities to get results.

 

[ItsAllAboutMe]

To me, Parko is more representative of a coach who believed in mental development and development off field, i.e. creating a team of well-rounded men, not just footballers, than one who spent the majority of his time developing them on field. I've heard him speak several times on the subject and he believes in honest feedback as a tool and I guess relied on his natural motivational and leadership abilities to get results.

I suspect Alistair Clarkson is cut from the same cloth.

 

[DaVillaBlues]

At this point would not be surprised if Tom Mitchell is gone from the Swans next year... but also I bet if a Port, Hawks, Geelong etc had come knocking to him last year when it was "rumoured" he was interested in leaving the Swans, I bet he would've gone. I don't think he wants to come to us while we're down at the moment (as Mick alluded).

The 750 K offer a season we reportedly put on the table last year to Mitchell was outrageous. That's the type of money you only offer to Rory Sloane type stars, not an unproven kid with potential.

Does this club ever learn ??