Racism Discussion - what is race? what is racism?

[Malifice]

Anyway let me quote Yaphet Kotto.

What the hell has political correctness got to do with it?

Acting is art. There is no rule in art that says that a performer, writer or director cant put his own interpretation on something.

Its no different to an all-black ensemble of Macbeth or whatever.

Jeeze man. You live in a hostile world surrounded by pinko conspiracies everywhere.

 

[Gus Poyet]

What does 'guilt' have to do with a black guy playing the role?

Please expand on this. I'm intrigued by your obvious prejudice inferred in this statement, as if you assume giving a black actor the role is some kind of expression of affirmative action designed solely to please a world thats gone PC mad.

Why does a character thats always been white now need to be changed?

James Bond is a white man of Scottish/Swiss heritage.

Why else would all of a sudden an established character have his heritage changed to Afro-Carribean?

Makes zero sense to the whole history of the character.

Why would you open the role to any other ethnicity outside of the one it's always been unless you're trying to do it from a PC point of view.

 

[Malifice]

Her whole sum of screen time would be lucky to amount to an hour over all those years.

I saw no reason to make her a mixed race actress anyway. What was the point?

Everyone on the planet is mixed race Gus. Everyone.

Nick Fury isn't an icon like James Bnd is. Not even in the same conversation.

Come to Comicon in a few weeks. Raise the argument that Nick Fury isnt an icon.

Who has heard of this God until the movies?

Me, anyone with a passing knowledge of Norse mythology (Loki, Thor, Odin etc) and literally every person who has ever read a Marvel comic ever.

 

[Gus Poyet]

What the hell has political correctness got to do with it?

Acting is art. There is no rule in art that says that a performer, writer or director cant put his own interpretation on something.

Its no different to an all-black ensemble of Macbeth or whatever.

Jeeze man. You live in a hostile world surrounded by pinko conspiracies everywhere.

He's saying its PC idiots who think a role created for a character that is Scots/Swiss heritage should all of a sudden be changed after all this time.

Acting is irrelevant. The whole Bond world is based on a a character that for 40 years has been a white male. Not just some scrub of a character that nobosy cares about either. One of the worlds most iconic movie chracters. Who just so happens to be a white male. No need for change sorry.

 

[Malifice]

Why would you open the role to any other ethnicity outside of the one it's always been unless you're trying to do it from a PC point of view.

Is it PC for a white actor (like Depp) to play an American Indian (Tonto in Lone Ranger), or Benedict Cumberbatch to play an Indian (Khan Singh in Star Trek)?

Or is it only part of the 'leftist PC agenda' when its the other way around?

 

[Maggie5]

Can't believe this all carrying on! I have seen two Bond movies, one with the guy that was in The Saint and the last one released.
Couldn't care less if the main actor was black, Asian or white.
The image I have in my mind is a tall, suave looking, cool male that is pretty handy in a fight.
I think that those of you who see a white male should get over it.
It's the movies for goodness sake and most of the time you let your imagination do the work.

 

[Gus Poyet]

Everyone on the planet is mixed race Gus. Everyone.

In your world. You dont get to dictate how others view race however.

And i'm not saying I disagree with your views on such matter.

Come to Comicon in a few weeks. Raise the argument that Nick Fury isnt an icon.

Come to the Anzac Day clash and walk around and raise the argument. Nick Fury isn't even in the same league as Bond for pop culture icons.

Me, anyone with a passing knowledge of Norse mythology (Loki, Thor, Odin etc) and literally every person who has ever read a Marvel comic ever.

So very few people then.

 

[Boston tiger]

Why does a character thats always been white now need to be changed?

James Bond is a white man of Scottish/Swiss heritage.

Why else would all of a sudden an established character have his heritage changed to Afro-Carribean?

Makes zero sense to the whole history of the character.

Why would you open the role to any other ethnicity outside of the one it's always been unless you're trying to do it from a PC point of view.

No one cares if James Bond stays white it's just no one cares if he changes to a black guy.
The moment he walks into the room and starts getting his gadgets ready all will have been forgotten and away we go.
A few racists poms around west ham way will be getting their knickers in a knot but who cares.

 

[Gus Poyet]

Is it PC for a white actor (like Depp) to play an American Indian (Tonto in Lone Ranger), or Benedict Cumberbatch to play an Indian (Khan Singh in Star Trek)?

It's stupid is what it is. When you can just hire actors of those cultures to play it. Pretty sure the lameness of Depp's character was s**t canned enough to show this.

Once again however they are not comparable to a character who has been around for 40 years in some of the most iconic films in cinematic history.

Or is it only part of the 'leftist PC agenda' when its the other way around?

If a character is whitten for a specific kind of person, hire that person.

If you want a black special MI5 agent, write a character for it. Don't hijack a long established one to do it.

 

[Malifice]

In your world. You dont get to dictate how others view race however.

Finally you're starting to get it. Race is a subjective concept. Not a biologically objective one.

Come to the Anzac Day clash and walk around and raise the argument. Nick Fury isn't even in the same league as Bond for pop culture icons.

What about Tonto? The Lone Rangers sidekick. Same league?

 

[Gus Poyet]

No one cares if James Bond stays white it's just no one cares if he changes to a black guy.

Obviously people do care.

The moment he walks into the room and starts getting his gadgets ready all will have been forgotten and away we go.

No it won't. As you've made it abundantly clear, you aren't a Bond fan. You have no vested interest in the character or his history.

A few racists poms around west ham way will be getting their knickers in a knot but who cares.

Well if nobody cares, lets keep him white as he's always been then

 

[Gus Poyet]

Finally you're starting to get it. Race is a subjective concept. Not a biologically objective one.

Perhaps.

Still means nothing though when discussing the matter with the broader population.

What about Tonto? The Lone Rangers sidekick. Same league?

Not even close.

 

[Malifice]

It's stupid is what it is. When you can just hire actors of those cultures to play it. Pretty sure the lameness of Depp's character was s**t canned enough to show this.

Once again however they are not comparable to a character who has been around for 40 years in some of the most iconic films in cinematic history.



If a character is whitten for a specific kind of person, hire that person.

If you want a black special MI5 agent, write a character for it. Don't hijack a long established one to do it.

Yet you have no problem with Macbeth having an all black cast.

Guess that changes when Shakespeare becomes established.

 

[Malifice]

Perhaps.

Still means nothing though when discussing the matter with the broader population.

But isn't it entirely valid for art (of which cinema and literature are included) to challenge, highlight, review and examine just such perceptions?

I really don't get the big deal.

 

[Gus Poyet]

Yet you have no problem with Macbeth having an all black cast. Guess that changes when Shakespeare becomes established.

I actually don't care. I don't go to the theatre to watch Shakespeare. Let the theatre gowers argue that one out.

I'm talking about a character i've grown up watching and enjoying all my life. I wonder how many of the wowsers who are all too happy to have a black actor play him have. Given the lack of knowledge of that bloke in ths thread who is clueless about Bond i'd say he's a good representation of those wowsers.

 

[Gus Poyet]

But isn't it entirely valid for art (of which cinema and literature are included) to challenge, highlight, review and examine just such perceptions?

I really don't get the big deal.

So if someone all of a sudden came along and said ok, we're changing Carlton's colours to Pink and Purple spots you'd still have that same, I don't care, it's not a big deal attitude?

I assume you've invested time and emotions into that club and as such you identify with the jumper.

Kind of like how people who watch films/tv invest their times and emotions into characters over the years.

 

[Boston tiger]

Obviously people do care.



No it won't. As you've made it abundantly clear, you aren't a Bond fan. You have no vested interest in the character or his history.




Well if nobody cares, lets keep him white as he's always been then

Just get someone who can act.

 

[Malifice]

So if someone all of a sudden came along and said ok, we're changing Carlton's colours to Pink and Purple spots you'd still have that same, I don't care, it's not a big deal attitude?

I assume you've invested time and emotions into that club and as such you identify with the jumper.

Kind of like how people who watch films/tv invest their times and emotions into characters over the years.

Why can't you identify with or give the same emotional investment to a black character then you can with a white character?

If that's your concern here, you have deeper problems that you may want to think about.

 

[Gus Poyet]

Just get someone who can act.

Yes, a white actor who can do the James Bond the son of a white Scot and white Swiss woman justice.

 

[Boston tiger]

I actually don't care. I don't go to the theatre to watch Shakespeare. Let the theatre gowers argue that one out.

I'm talking about a character i've grown up watching and enjoying all my life. I wonder how many of the wowsers who are all too happy to have a black actor play him have. Given the lack of knowledge of that bloke in ths thread who is clueless about Bond i'd say he's a good representation of those wowsers.

Sorry if it's going to upset you that much for your sake I hope they only have white Bonds in your lifetime.

 

[Gus Poyet]

Why can't you identify with or give the same emotional investment to a black character then you can with a white character?

Because James Bond was the son of white parents. Not Afro-Carribean.

Do you think Django Unchained would have been any good with a pale redhead playing Django?

If that's your concern here, you have deeper problems that you may want to think about.

My only concern is they stay true to Ian Flemming's creation. So don't read your own crap into people's reasoning.

 

[Gus Poyet]

Sorry if it's going to upset you that much for your sake I hope they only have white Bonds in your lifetime.

Me too

If you want a black MI5 agent so badly, go write your own script for one.

 

[Boston tiger]

Me too

If you want a black MI5 agent so badly, go write your own script for one.

It would be staring Sir Vivian Richards.

 

[Malifice]

Because James Bond was the son of white parents. Not Afro-Carribean.

So what? How does that impair your ability to have an emotional investment with the character?

Youre losing me here. Do 'Afro-carribean' parents have some kind of different 'traits' than Anglo-saxon ones? Traits that would dilute my emotional investment to a black Bond depiction?

My only concern is they stay true to Ian Flemming's creation. So don't read your own crap into people's reasoning.

No, you commented above that people have an emotional investment with the Bond character. Your clear inference (by way of analogy in the same post) was that by changing his ethnicity this emotional investment would be diluted or changed in some manner.

Which I put to you indicates either a level of prejudice in your thinking, or an acceptance of the prejudice of others.

 

[Gus Poyet]

It would be staring Sir Vivian Richards.

Write it then. Nothing stopping you.