Rank the 10 greatest Eagles players of all-time

Discussion in 'West Coast Eagles' started by Gunnar Longshanks, Jan 31, 2007.

Put it out there
  1. Ian Dargie

    Ian Dargie Team Captain

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    People should still be able to make coherent arguments.

    Otherwise I may as well put RoJo No.1 and expect everyone to take me seriously.

    What does that even mean?

    He still managed to finish second in the Brownlow in the year Cousins won it.

    Did someone forget to steal his thunder that year?

    Come on, this is bullshit.

    It's not like there's a limited quota of quality and Judd and Cousins were hogging it all.

    There was plenty of "opportunity to shine". In fact, it was easier for Kerr to shine because he didn't have to worry about a tag. When Cousins and Judd left, how did Kerr go?

    Geez, you're keen on buzzwords.

    Were Mainwaring, Heady and Lewis "blue collar"?

    Matera stood out because he was a champion.

    Hang on.

    So Matera, who got tagged, had an advantage, whereas Kerr, who wasn't tagged, was denied opportunity?

    Surely that's about as arse-backwards as it gets.

    The fact that Matera got tagged made his life harder. The fact that Kerr wasn't tagged made his life easier. Doesn't that make more sense than what you've said?

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  2. jod23

    jod23 Norm Smith Medallist

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    Could also go forward and kick goals.
  3. jod23

    jod23 Norm Smith Medallist

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    I just think Jako didnt have as much pure talent as what Cousins and Matera had. Jako is cemented in the top 5 though, just not number 1 IMO. He wasnt good enough for long enough, like Matera and Cuz were. Cousins would have eaten up Jako's games record too had he not gone off the rails.

    Lewis probably misses out on top 10. Certainly was top 10 for a long time, but recently, last 10 years or so, Cousins, Judd and Cox stormed onto the list, probably dropping Lewis out. Crazily skilled though and a no brainer in a best ever 22 for West Coast.

    I dont think it's a close run thing. I think McKenna is one of the best defenders ive ever seen. Glass is very good and probably just outside the top 10 whereas Bluey IMO is cemented in the top 5.
  4. jod23

    jod23 Norm Smith Medallist

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    Im actually surprised some people actually put Judd ahead of Cousins. Cousins has the AA's, the Brownlow, the AFLPA MVP, the Premiership, he was pretty much premiership captain, everybody knew even without the title, who our leader still was. Plus he did it for far, far, longer. For me, easily Cousins over Judd.
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  5. jod23

    jod23 Norm Smith Medallist

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    Is someone trying to argue that Kerr is better than Matera? Lolz. Love Special K, but he is a level below the great Peter Matera.
  6. jod23

    jod23 Norm Smith Medallist

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    Let's see...

    12 points: Club Champion award.
    8 points: All Australian.
    6 points: Premiership.
    5 points: 200 games.
    3 points: 100 games.
    3 points: Brownlow.
    3 points: AFLPA MVP.
    2 points: Norm Smith.
    1 point: Runner up Brownlow.
    1 point: per year of being Captain.

    So going by that formula, the following. I did the following 15 players who have been mentioned the most in our top 10 lists.

    1. Cousins - 119
    2. Glass - 84
    3. Jakovich - 81
    4. McKenna - 75
    5. Matera - 73
    6. Cox - 71
    7. Judd - 59
    8. Worsfold - 53
    9. Kemp - 40
    =10. McIntosh - 37
    =10. Lewis - 37
    12. Mainwaring - 33
    13. Kerr - 21
    14. Wirrpanda - 19
    15. Embley - 13

    So having done that exercise I think it goes pretty well. Glass too high, Kemp and Matera a little too low. Cousins the clear winner. Judd in a more realistic position.
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  7. Marlin01

    Marlin01 Club Legend

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    Excellent work Jod.
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  8. Masto

    Masto Team Captain

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    Cousins wasn't premiership captain though and his longevity was cancelled out by his off-field indiscretions. For me, Judd in his prime was better than Cousins. Even Trevor Nisbett said Judd was our best ever player. Hell, you could make the case that Judd is the greatest player of all time. He has the highest Brownlow votes per game in AFL history and sits 4th on the all time list. If you want the most decorated player, yeah its probably Cousins. If you want the best player, its Judd.
  9. JackJako27

    JackJako27 Rookie

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    I like it Jod. A solid list and is pretty much in line with my list and most others on here.

    Formulas and things are fine but for me its about how important the player was to the team, toughness, leadership, longevity, loyalty and just general awesomeness... which is why for me Jako is my number one. He was rarely beaten and often took on the best player and won.

    I think for most people the top 5 or so will be the same, just in different orders. And this is fine, it's what makes footy so enjoyable.
  10. WCE_phil

    WCE_phil Team Captain

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    1. Cousins
    2. Matera
    3. Jakovich
    4. Cox
    5. Kemp
    6. Judd
    7. Mckenna
    8. Glass
    9. Mcintosh (still the better FB though imo)
    10. Sumich

    Myself like a lot of people though while not having Worsfold on this list would still have him down as the single most important person in WCE history. Been involved in every successful part of our history. Two time premiership captain, premiership coach, has overseen the building of what is hopefully 2 successful sides.
  11. FiveStrings

    FiveStrings Moderator

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    Insane to think Worsfold, Mainwaring, Heady, Lewis can't make the list isn't it.

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  12. amazingjoshy

    amazingjoshy Team Captain

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    Super effort there jod, but it opens the door for debate on how much weight should be given to the various awards/achievements. For example having an AA worth almost 3 times a Brownlow/MVP doesn't seem right to me
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  13. jod23

    jod23 Norm Smith Medallist

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    I dumbed down the Brownlow and AFLMVP because it's an award for midfielders. So Cox is never gonna win one, neither is say Jakovich, McKenna. But the AA team recognises every position on the field. That was my thought process.
  14. jod23

    jod23 Norm Smith Medallist

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    Cousins was the premiership captain. Ask anyone at the club, or any fan. Cousins was our leader, not Judd. Why was Cousins longevity cancelled out by his off field indiscretions? What happened off field happened off field. We are talking about what happened on the field and Cousins played almost 100 more games for the club at at EXTREMELY high level.

    Also when you talk about great WCE players, you want to list them, loyalty surely has to come into it also. Cousins was a one club man, despite his 2 years at Richmond which only happened because of his problems. Had he not had the drug issues, he would have played 300 odd games for us, probably another couple of B&F's and AA's. Wouldnt even be a discussion really. We were robbed actually of the cementing of a legend.
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  15. Ian Dargie

    Ian Dargie Team Captain

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    Probably didn't have as much pure talent as Chris Lewis either.

    If talent, rather than performance, is what counts, the list looks pretty different.

    Games record-holder and four-time B&F winner. Hardly a flash in the pan.

    Like I said, our best ever KPP, the best CHB of the modern era and the most dominant defender I've seen.

    And yes, a lot of things would have been different had Cousins not gone of the rails. Cousins would probably have ended up a unanimous No.1 had he finished the job instead being sacked at 29. But we don't inhabit that parallel universe.

    So why whinge about people not putting him on their lists?

    There are definitely 10 guys ahead of him.

    Well, suffice to say that I think that's a mile wide of the mark.

    McKenna in the top 5? So which one of Cox, Cousins, Judd, Jakovich or Matera do you have him above?

    And I am actually slightly baffled by you inexplicably under-rating Glass.

    Glass has won three B&Fs and been an elite FB for 7-8 years. He has also continued that form into his 30s. McKenna was no longer at that level at the same stage of his career.

    And even at his best, how many times in his career do you reckon McKenna had to take the other side's best forward? Compare that to Glass giving Barry Hall a hiding in the 2006 grand final. He could easily have won the Norm Smith for that. Hall was the AA CHF that year and Glass smashed him in a match we won by a solitary point. Had Hall broken even that day, we wouldn't have won the flag. Did McKenna ever do anything like that? A thumping victory over an elite key forward when it mattered most?

    McKenna's best days simply weren't as consequential because he wasn't needed for those big defensive jobs. Glass, on the other hand, had to take these top key forwards one on one, because we didn't really flood or put extra players in defence, and regularly beat them. McKenna had the luxury of being part of a star-studded defence - Jakovich, Worsfold, Brennan and then McIntosh - whereas Glass held our back six together. Hell, the defence was built around him. McKenna never had to play on Ablett or Carey or Dunstall or any of those guys. Glass, by comparison, got those big jobs every week and now deserves to be rated as one of the best two FBs of the past decade, only a touch behind Matty Scarlett.

    If you can make a real argument for McKenna over Glass - beyond 'McKenna is better' - I'd be fascinated to hear it.
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  16. Ian Dargie

    Ian Dargie Team Captain

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    Judd has those as well. And a Norm Smith.

    I have Cousins ahead of Judd because Judd only played 134 games for us.

    But if you want to add up awards, it's not a great argument for Cousins over Judd.
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  17. Ian Dargie

    Ian Dargie Team Captain

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    I wonder how accurate that is.

    I don't reckon McIntosh would have spent much time on Ablett. In the years when Ablett was dominating, Brennan and Worsfold were more likely to take him.

    Sure, after Brennan retired at the end of 1995, McIntosh became the first-choice FB but it means you've only got a short window when McIntosh was taking these guys, particularly Ablett and Dunstall, who finished earlier than Lockett.

    Maybe McIntosh played on Ablett once in 1996, Ablett's last year, but Ablett kicked seven goals that day, so hardly a win for us. And 1996 was Dunstall's last hurrah. We played Hawthorn once that year and beat them comfortably. Dunstall kicked four of Hawthorn's eight so probably fair to say he beat his man that day.

    So if your argument is that McIntosh spent his career playing on and beating the best full-forwards of the age, it's not really true. He rarely played on Ablett, and would maybe have taken Dunstall for a year or two at the tail-end of Dunstall's career. Maybe one or two matches. Admittedly he had to take Lockett for 1996-99. McIntosh played Sydney four times in that period and Lockett was generally well-held but is that enough to spin your wheels?

    By the time McIntosh was a top-line FB, he was playing on the likes of Modra, Lloyd and Neitz, rather than Ablett and Dunstall. Still great players but were they a millions mile better than the players Glass has nullified?

    McIntosh also had the benefit of being part of an awesome defence. He never had to worry about Carey, for example. Glass, on the other hand, has been the main man and stand-out key defender in our back six since 2003-04.
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  18. Masto

    Masto Team Captain

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    It is what it is. He wasn't and no amount of arguing otherwise will change history.
  19. Masto

    Masto Team Captain

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    You can rationalise it all you want but McIntosh played against superior players. Who was the best player Darren Glass played against? Barry Hall? Pavlich? they don't compare with Dunstall, Ablett, Lockett, Modra in his prime - any which way you want to cut it he played on some of the best forwards of all time who clearly as a group who superior players than the ones Glass played against.
  20. Ian Dargie

    Ian Dargie Team Captain

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    Did you read my post, mate?

    He only became the first-choice FB in 1996. That was Ablett's last year and Dunstall's last good year. Both of them got away from us in our matches that year. So your argument about McIntosh playing on Ablett and Dunstall - or beating them - is a poor one. It's not accurate.

    Yes, he played on Lockett probably four times from 1996-99. Four matches. Does that make all the difference?

    As for "rationalising it", is that meant to be a bad thing? Oh, you can presents "facts" if you want... Sure, I will. Thanks.

    Glass would have played on Lloyd, Hall, Franklin, Pavlich. Maybe Brown at times? Pretty handy players, I reckon. And, unlike McIntosh, he played against them in their prime and as the absolute main man in our back six.

    If you want to talk about McIntosh doing well on Lockett, by then in his 30s, in four matches from 1996-99 like that's the be-all and end-all, that's up to you. But, as I've demonstrated, McIntosh would barely have played on Ablett and Dunstall and if he did take them once each in 1996, he probably lowered his colours. So I don't know why you'd keep circling back and repeating such a leaky argument.
  21. Masto

    Masto Team Captain

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    He played against Dunstall in the 1992 final @ Subiaco.
  22. Ian Dargie

    Ian Dargie Team Captain

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    You realise that McIntosh was 19 years old at that stage? Dunstall was the Coleman Medal-winning FF, so it's probably fair to suggest Brennan was the likely starting opponent. Agreed?

    But let's assume for a second that McIntosh took Dunstall that day. Dunstall kicked six goals out of Hawthorn's 12 so how would that be a win for McIntosh? If, as you suggest, McIntosh took Dunstall, he was beaten. Isn't your argument that Mcintosh got the better of these guys?
  23. Masto

    Masto Team Captain

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    Yes, he also played against Brereton as an 18 yo in the 1991 GF. Brennan started and Dunstall carved him up so Malthouse moved McIntosh onto him and shut him down. He played on some of the best players of all time as an teenager and shut them down. That's how good he was. Glass has had a long and consistent career but it never reached the heights that McIntosh did.
  24. Ian Dargie

    Ian Dargie Team Captain

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    Really? Who was McIntosh playing on in the last quarter?

    Dunstall and Brereton finished with 10 goals between them. Presumably, none of them were kicked on McIntosh, though? Because even in his first year he was just shutting everyone down, right?

    I think I've established that he wasn't our first-choice FB until 1996, after Brennan retired. He was still being thrown forward half the time until then.

    But you can ignore that and keep repeating a debunked argument if you like.

    Tell me more about the times he shut down Ablett and Lockett while still a teenager. Or is that bullshit?

    Quite obviously nonsense.

    Glass has won three B&Fs and has been an elite FB longer than McIntosh was.
  25. Masto

    Masto Team Captain

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    I never said he played well against Brereton in 91, threw him around like a ragdoll. But he learnt from that and became a very good player. Being more decorated doesn't make you a better player. Playing for longer doesn't make you a better player.