Resisting paying tax - the moral thing to do?

[Mofra]

All true. Of course, GST and other state taxes go back to the states thsemselves, who do not use it (so far as I am aware) on defence spending, as this is a federal government responsibility.

Yes correct, although someone wanting to get really anal could suggest the state taxes pay for infrastructure that connects defence facilities to the wider community and are therefore compicit in defence operations (noting GST carve-out is not 1:1 and some states receive more GST revenue than they collect, such as Tasmania).

 

[Smiling Buddha]

Sure, and then the counter-argument is that somebody who pays no income tax, even if much of their spending goes towards taxes such as GST and the like, will be taking more from the system in net terms than they will be putting in.

Bringing the evil empire down from the inside. Aw' yeah.

 

[clogged]

Smiling Buddha, you should earn a high income and negatively gear and breed your way out of paying net tax.

That's the Australian way.

 

[BEEG]

So essentially what you want is to be a complete bludger and sponge on society, but justify it by claiming some moral crusade?

Go right ahead, nobody will care. Or notice.

Just like this post

 

[Illinois Nazi]

Just like this post

Yes, everybody should just like that post.

 

[Bunk Moreland]

Some level of defence expenditure is fine - we have armed forces for a reason and can't expect them to be running around on horseback with swords and shields.

Might have a point if the level of defence spending was excessive or beyond justification, but I don't think it is.

 

[Messenger]

The graphs on that page are based on tax-to-GDP ratios, which are almost useless for evaluating how much tax the average person pays as a percentage of their income, let alone how this amount compares to other nations.

What else would you use?

 

[Smiling Buddha]

Might have a point if the level of defence spending was excessive or beyond justification, but I don't think it is.

Fair enough. How much would the government have to spend on defence before you would feel that point had been reached?

What else would you use?

Howabout median income per capita after tax?

 

[Illinois Nazi]

Fair enough. How much would the government have to spend on defence before you would feel that point had been reached?

About another $1.80 or so.

 

[Long Live HFC]

why is objecting to so-called warmongering qualitatively different to opposing the NBN or medicare or the dole (and then not paying taxes because you don't agree with the policies of the day)? face it- all governments do something we disagree with; to then insinuate it's ok not to pay taxes because you disagree with a specific program is self-indulgent nonsense.

 

[Catfish Alley]

I'm not sure what repercussions there would be. That's why I'd like an update. Any info on living under $18k in Australia would be intriguing too.

 

[Bunk Moreland]

Fair enough. How much would the government have to spend on defence before you would feel that point had been reached?

Dunno, a bridge best crossed if we ever come to it.

I do read the fed and state budgets in some detail as part of my work, so I get an idea.

We need armed forces, and I think the amount we spend to maintain them is fair.

 

[Smiling Buddha]

I'm not sure what repercussions there would be. That's why I'd like an update. Any info on living under $18k in Australia would be intriguing too.

I can already tell you what living on $18k is like because I did it last calendar year. Long story short, I was able to live in the inner suburbs of Brisbane (in share houses), lead a comfortable life, eat well, afford some luxuries (gym membership, eating out way too often, the occasional bag of herbs) and go out with friends whenever I wanted. The only normal thing I didn't do last year was drink piss, and this saved me literally thousands of dollars (by the time you add up alcohol, taxis, entry fees, hangover food, etc etc).

If you are smart with money, and don't have a mortgage/kids to pay for, you can lead a very comfortable life in Australia on $18k. It won't seem 'exciting' relative to those around you, but only the fool compares his own lot to those immediately around him. And since our MSM and education system condition us to be fools, and we are by nature herd animals, most people will never dare to lead a simple life, even if they know deep down it would make them happier. The rat race will continue to be the prevailing paradigm for most.

Dunno, a bridge best crossed if we ever come to it.

Yeah and I'm asking how you will determine whether or not you are at that bridge.

Aggressive invasions of middle eastern countries isn't enough.

Expenditure of one billion dollars on helicopters that never worked is not enough.

Twelve billion dollar purchase orders for over-budget, long-delayed multi-purpose jets is not enough.

When will enough be enough?

 

[Herne Hill Hammer]

I can already tell you what living on $18k is like because I did it last calendar year. Long story short, I was able to live in the inner suburbs of Brisbane (in share houses), lead a comfortable life, eat well, afford some luxuries (gym membership, eating out way too often, the occasional bag of herbs) and go out with friends whenever I wanted. The only normal thing I didn't do last year was drink piss, and this saved me literally thousands of dollars (by the time you add up alcohol, taxis, entry fees, hangover food, etc etc).

If you are smart with money, and don't have a mortgage/kids to pay for, you can lead a very comfortable life in Australia on $18k. It won't seem 'exciting' relative to those around you, but only the fool compares his own lot to those immediately around him. And since our MSM and education system condition us to be fools, and we are by nature herd animals, most people will never dare to lead a simple life, even if they know deep down it would make them happier. The rat race will continue to be the prevailing paradigm for most.

Yeah and I'm asking how you will determine whether or not you are at that bridge.

Aggressive invasions of middle eastern countries isn't enough.

Expenditure of one billion dollars on helicopters that never worked is not enough.

Twelve billion dollar purchase orders for over-budget, long-delayed multi-purpose jets is not enough.

When will enough be enough?

How much do you think we are over spending on our defence force and in what areas?

 

[Tasmaniac]

Fair enough. How much would the government have to spend on defence before you would feel that point had been reached?

One way to evaluate military spending is as a % of GDP. (Although this can be very rubbery, for example China,constsruction of military infrastructure does not appear in the military budget, for the US, Aus and most other countries it does).

At height of Cold War, when we/Europeans really did think the Commies might be invading 3% of GDP was the target.

Post cold war this was wound down, 2.5% became the new target, dropping to 2.2% and then 2% (a better level, enough to fund realistic capabilities but low as far as buying every high end war toy the defence dept might like).

In the GFC labour cut this down to about 1.6%, which might be okay for a year or two in a budget crisis, but will quickly lead to a hollowed out, ineffectual military which can't do the tasks we might want them to (not talking about ME adventures here, intervention in East Timor for example, on our door step but we could barely do it, needed US logistical help, clearly cut too much).

Unfortunately we are now somewhat stuck at/near 1.6% as the budget is in deficit, both sides have acknowledged that 2% is the preferred target but there's no hard committment to reach this level. The Libs position is something like "When funding permits".

I'd like to see 2% target met and held at that level. Howard & Gillard handed too much Income tax back, plus middle class welfare too.

PS. Yes we all know there's wastage in defence, some of it is incompetence and some of it is the cost you face when buying brand new technologies.

 

[Scotland]

I really don't know all I know is we need to pay something but what we currently pay as Australian's is just rediculas

More spending on education is probably warranted.

 

[JuddsABlue]

Person I work with salary sacrifices their income to the point where no tax is payed (around $200~ per week)

But theyve reached the annual cap on the amount you can sacrifice (used to be 50k, the Labor government lowed it to 30k assumingly to get more tax from people who do this) so now theyre back to getting their full amount and paying tax until the year resets

I have a car so I want cheap oil as well, get over there troops.

 

[Bunk Moreland]

Yeah and I'm asking how you will determine whether or not you are at that bridge.

Aggressive invasions of middle eastern countries isn't enough.

Expenditure of one billion dollars on helicopters that never worked is not enough.

Twelve billion dollar purchase orders for over-budget, long-delayed multi-purpose jets is not enough.

When will enough be enough?

- I don't have a crystal ball. I don't know what decisions they're going to make and when. When they make them, I weigh them up on their merits. Hence "cross the bridge when we come to it", google the phrase if you don't get it. We may never come to it.

- this new purchase will replace much of the current fighter fleet which by 2020 will be pretty bloody old I believe. So yep, I think that's pretty reasonable.

- the cost is a lot of money, but these planes cost $150m - $200m each generally. They're not cheap.

 

[JD11]

so what if some billionaire is siphoning money through the cayman islands and tells you that he did it because he didn't want to pay for the govts military budget, SB?

who do you side with there? the filthy rich or the plain filthy?

 

[checkraiseulite]

so what if some billionaire is siphoning money through the cayman islands and tells you that he did it because he didn't want to pay for the govts military budget, SB?

who do you side with there? the filthy rich or the plain filthy?

Excellent poast.

 

[little graham]

Think of all the little children from poor areas being exploited by pedophile rings because the gov doesn't have enough money for police because of people like the OP?

For the purpose of making my point, please disregard the fact that most pedophile rings have police and or politicians in them.

 

[Smiling Buddha]

so what if some billionaire is siphoning money through the cayman islands and tells you that he did it because he didn't want to pay for the govts military budget, SB?

Is he breaking the law?

If so then there is clearly no equivalence between that and what I have proposed earlier in this thread.

Earning a small amount, or earning nothing, and not paying tax as a result, is not illegal.

I would also point out that a billionaire has the means to influence the political and social landscape of the nation (see Uncle Clive) and if his views were strongly anti-war (etc) then he could use his capital to attempt to affect that agenda. Piss-ants like you and me do not really have that capability (and before some turnip argues that we do, even if you believe this, it is clearly not on the same scale).

How much do you think we are over spending on our defence force and in what areas?

Every cent spent on invading foreign nations is wasted spending.

We're already talking in tens of billions, before factoring caring for the wounded and PTSD servicemen returning from those invasions. Who knows how much the final cost will be.

As I mentioned earlier, the Seasprite was an unmitigated disaster. One billion dollars gone just like that.

And those are just the most obvious things.

 

[Papa Juggs]

You know somebody is a kook when they put these words together in a sentence

US military industrial complex

 

[little graham]

You know somebody is a kook when they put these words together in a sentence

http://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/eisenhower-warns-of-the-military-industrial-complex


lots of s**t about the MIC.

I like this one.

Eisenhower was merely stating the obvious. World War II and the ensuing Cold War resulted in the development of a large and powerful defense establishment. Necessary though that development might be, Eisenhower warned, this new military-industrial complex could weaken or destroy the very institutions and principles it was designed to protect.

I think its about half of all gov revenue spent on the military in America. Arms manufacturers are known to create conflicts to keep tax coming in. Its a matter of public record certain companies involved in ballistic missile manufacturing deliberately inflamed hostilities with the Russians so they would gain business. Kennedy spoke of these companies using the press to 'leak' troop movements for the purpose creating hostility. Not long later Kennedy was dead.

 

[Papa Juggs]

Yeah I agree little graham I wear my kook badge proudly.