Rockliff's possessions

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dlanod said:
Is there any real point to posting brief antagonistic posts in response long well-thought out posts? You may not agree with the conclusions but you'd be better off debating those on their merits rather than just snarking.
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I find some of the "snarkiness" to opposition posters ugly sometimes and is something we need to be mindful of, but not at the expense of denying your own posters any sort of home ground advantage or tribal right of reply.

If you go onto any team board on BigFooty, make a post about why you think of of their star players is overrated while admitting you have based it on 7 minutes of game footage, you have put a massive "KICK ME" sign on your own back.

If I went on to the Freo board and said "in the first 7 minutes of the game I didn't see Stephen Hill go near a hard ball contest... is he a seagull?" I wonder if they would lay out cookies and milk for me.

And yeah, I have to say, let's not automatically link "long" posts with "well thought out".

Haso's post might have been deliciously sarcastic but it also contained a pretty clear rebuttal, despite not being "long".
 
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QLDatHEART said:
7 minutes of one game?
I take everything back
Youre an authority on Rocky and his value to our team
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Chill mate.

I wasn't going to watch the whole game again but you said go back and watch. It's an observation again from the start of the game and as I said maybe not a true reflection.

I don't always feel 45 possession gives you automatic BOG status or top 2 status and that was the observation and point I'm making.

I'm not saying he is useless or worthless. This is all to do with him being named in some blokes best 22 players for the week.

A Brisbane poster pointed me in this direction and there was already a thread about this subject and 4 pages of posts before I joined in. So don't go being a knob to an opposition poster when your own board started the subject I was talking about.

You may also say it wasn't thought out, but I'm not going to analyse his every touch. Where would you like me to watch the game from? I watched from the start and gave my impression. I continued to watch for a bit and his first 10 touches were handballs with more of the same observation. He hit targets but from there others hand balled and they turned it over.

He had 1 clearance in this time, and only a further 1 was a contested possessions. He worked into space and was given the ball. He only had 6 clearances for the game. Mundy who some could say was playing on him had 8 clearances from his 24 touches.

I mean it's a genuine question from 45 possessions from your mid. Would you be happy with 6 clearances and 13 contested? Is that enough to suggest he influenced the game for best 22 out of all the players in the AFL this weekend or would you say probably not, he's still a gun and 45 touches is a great effort but not worthy of best 22 players in the round?

I'm just saying I think the latter.

No need to be precious and come back at me with one liners that don't really describe the situation.
 
TheBrownDog said:
As an aside, if we are completely dismissing the impact of players on account of their side being thrashed, how useless was Gary Ablett in his first 3 years at the Suns!
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Underrated post, remember that 53 possession game where everyone thought he had a pretty average game and there was a media circus about how Ablett was selfish and not that good?

Will be enjoyable to watch Rockliff blow everyone's brains with his games in the future while they keep trying to tell themselves he's overrated.
 

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TheBrownDog said:
I find some of the "snarkiness" to opposition posters ugly sometimes and is something we need to be mindful of.

However, if you go onto any team board on BigFooty, make a post about why you think of of their star players is overrated while admitting you have based it on 7 minutes of game footage, you have put a massive "KICK ME" sign on your own back.

If I went on to the Freo board and said "in the first 7 minutes of the game I didn't see Stephen Hill go near a hard ball contest... is he soft?" I wonder if they would lay out cookies and milk for me.

And yeah, I have to say, let's not automatically link "long" posts with "well thought out".

Haso's post might have been deliciously sarcastic but it also contained a pretty clear rebuttal, despite not being "long".
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No worries mate.

If he hadn't of touched the ball I wouldn't use the argument from the first 7 minutes. I ended up watching his first 10 disposals which were all handballs. I did state perhaps not a true reflection and I'm not underestimating him at all.

I was never basing it on 7 minutes, it was a whole game perspective but I went to the effort of watching some again and gave my thoguhts because a poster asked me to do so, so I did and watched solely for Rockliff.

Perhaps some just see the big numbers and fantasy points and just think gun player, not saying he isn't.

Thought Zorko was better and more visible but I even had Rockliff behind a couple of Freo players and hence why and how does Rockliff get in best 22, me thinks it's based on fantasy points and not actual influence.
 
TheBrownDog said:
If I went on to the Freo board and said "in the first 7 minutes of the game I didn't see Stephen Hill go near a hard ball contest... is he a seagull?" I wonder if they would lay out cookies and milk for me.

And yeah, I have to say, let's not automatically link "long" posts with "well thought out".

Haso's post might have been deliciously sarcastic but it also contained a pretty clear rebuttal, despite not being "long".
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There were a number of posts. He then went and reviewed at least part of the game, which people didn't do to provide counter-examples. Shows some honest effort, even though I still disagree with his conclusions. Jumping on the "ha, you only watched seven minutes" without at least saying "here's an example or two from later in the game" strikes me as lazy criticism.
 
dlanod said:
There were a number of posts. He then went and reviewed at least part of the game, which people didn't do to provide counter-examples. Shows some honest effort, even though I still disagree with his conclusions. Jumping on the "ha, you only watched seven minutes" without at least saying "here's an example or two from later in the game" strikes me as lazy criticism.
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Well if lazy debating without substantiation is your real concern, you are going to be calling a lot of people out on here!
 
Yeah nah. In a losing side Rockliffe had as good a game I have seen. Not interested in faux Hammo impersonations. Played most of his game winning possession out the back of the stoppages etc and put to players in better space. What they did with is more the issue.
 
Cobbler said:
No worries mate.

If he hadn't of touched the ball I wouldn't use the argument from the first 7 minutes. I ended up watching his first 10 disposals which were all handballs. I did state perhaps not a true reflection and I'm not underestimating him at all.

I was never basing it on 7 minutes, it was a whole game perspective but I went to the effort of watching some again and gave my thoguhts because a poster asked me to do so, so I did and watched solely for Rockliff.

Perhaps some just see the big numbers and fantasy points and just think gun player, not saying he isn't.

Thought Zorko was better and more visible but I even had Rockliff behind a couple of Freo players and hence why and how does Rockliff get in best 22, me thinks it's based on fantasy points and not actual influence.
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I do agree that some of the responses early were a bit childish and harsh. I also think that perhaps some of the backlash was due to the fact that you've come in with a view to questioning this point in a thread where this was never mentioned. I've got absolutely no idea what you're referring to (as i'm sure do a lot of posters on here who don't venture out onto other boards a lot). It may have been best to try to have this discussion on the thread that it was discussed in the first place as no-one on this thread has said he was best 22 over the comp for the week.

As an aside, unless you were to watch every game on the weekend in a fair amount of detail I find it hard to see how anyone puts together a best 22 for a round of football. Logic would seem to dictate that stats will always form some of the basis for this sort of side due to people not watching all the games. Does this make it acceptable for stats to have a weighting? I'm sure it does to some degree. Personally I've got no idea whether Rocky would be in the best 22 across the comp this week as I only watched one other game of football for the weekend, but thats not really what this thread was about, so I'm not sure why the point is being raised here?
 
I won't grudge Rocky for being one of the few who wants the football, and his team mates are prone to giving it to him rather than taking responsibility themselves which pads his stats a bit too I think. Freo is amazing at making their pressure count, where those quick handballs might draw a couple of players any other time and leave a man free on the outside, Freo trusts themselves to commit one man to pressure harass and tackle a ball carrier and that means most of the options are covered as well. We panicked and couldn't adjust. There were plenty of players that ended up being second receiver that couldn't even dispose of the ball so Rocky getting the ball so many times and having an effective disposal is a pretty good measure. It wasn't just quick panicked handballs - he would handball off, get free and be available to receive the ball back while it seemed he actually gained metres instead of running back around behind the contest (if he did he would probably get caught because he definitely doesn't have Ablett's speed).
 

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Anyone who seriously questions Rockliff's value to our team and significant abilities as an emerging 'elite' AFL footballer needs to watch more football.
 
dlanod said:
Is there any real point to posting brief antagonistic posts in response long well-thought out posts? You may not agree with the conclusions but you'd be better off debating those on their merits rather than just snarking.
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What well thought out posts? ?
 
Cobbler makes an interesting point mentioning Rockliff not being in his best 22 in the comp. You have to wonder if Rockliff WAS in that best 22 handing off his 45 possessions to the likes of, oh I dunno, Stephen Hill? Robbie Gray? Patrick Dangerfield? or maybe even Dayne Beams (;D) would his impact be questioned. This is probably an exercise in hubris and stats being what they are, I'd rather Rockliff have 20 possessions and absolutely destroy the game. However even Gary Ablett couldn't beat teams surrounded by a bunch of 1st year players.

Instead Rockliff was left having to help teammates in their back half, where of course his influence on the game would suffer. Because he's the hero Brisbane deserves, but not the one it needs right now. So we'll hunt him. Because he can take it. Because he's not our hero. He's a silent guardian. A watchful protector. A Dark Knight.
 
Caiphus said:
I won't grudge Rocky for being one of the few who wants the football, and his team mates are prone to giving it to him rather than taking responsibility themselves which pads his stats a bit too I think. Freo is amazing at making their pressure count, where those quick handballs might draw a couple of players any other time and leave a man free on the outside, Freo trusts themselves to commit one man to pressure harass and tackle a ball carrier and that means most of the options are covered as well. We panicked and couldn't adjust. There were plenty of players that ended up being second receiver that couldn't even dispose of the ball so Rocky getting the ball so many times and having an effective disposal is a pretty good measure. It wasn't just quick panicked handballs - he would handball off, get free and be available to receive the ball back while it seemed he actually gained metres instead of running back around behind the contest (if he did he would probably get caught because he definitely doesn't have Ablett's speed).
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You are correct. I was using this thread as an opportunity to see what people thought about his 45 touches in respect to my own agenda about being in the top 22 players of the week. Thank you for raising this point as I feel what I was saying and reviewing was being taken negatively and that wasn't my intention.

So the message and point was somewhat blurred.

For the record the coaches vote saw him get 1 vote. There were 5 Fremantle players before him, so in some way that justifies the point I was making.

Cheers
 
John said:
Another thing I might add is that Rocky plays behind the ball a heck of a lot from my observations and tends to feed the ball to the Zorkos of this world to move it forward. This may also contribute to why he has such large numbers in games we are being beaten in, does a lot of defensive work.
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I think the Johns of this world are on to something here.
 
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