List Mgmt. Rookie Draft: Welcome - Jack Sinclair, Ahmed Saad, Brenton Payne & Adam Schneider

[Kilroy]

I agree. I like that we are reinforcing the age-old AFL culture of loyalty.

However, I do wonder if we need to pay attention to the changing landscape. Personally I feel it is a sign of the times that players (and many clubs) now treat the league as far more open in terms of player movement. Cam Delaney was clearly one of the best players in the rookie draft, Geelong decided to hell with any unwritten rules - if someone's available we're picking them. This isn't 1976, and players don't all play for a single club.

Rather than go against the tide, part of me wonders if the prudent thing to do is get ahead of the pack and embrace the new world of players and clubs having no loyalty whatsoever! Chop and change, cut and deal...

What's wise about promoting disloyalty or, for that matter, trashing your motto? And why trash a mutually-beneficial "trading relationship" with another club or be quick to break "unwritten rules", just cos of a fleeting perception that it's all going to "hell" anyway? Just makes you look a bit desperate if you're the only one doing it. I guess we'll see if it was worth it for the Cats, but in my eyes at least they're losing their mojo and panicking a bit.

Strength through loyalty is not an outdated truism, it's a fact, but it does depend on what value you place on each player. If you’ve exposed a player to the market and other clubs place a higher value on him then he’s fair game. Doesn't mean you throw the baby out with the bathwater though.

Glad it wasn't us being opportunistic with Cam Delaney though cos the club obviously values what Ahmed brings higher than what Cam does presently. (Interesting that we exposed him by waiting till the second round, but it was a calculated and successful risk.) Fortunately too, the message that sends to our players is not in conflict with our brand or with the meaning behind the FutureFest.

Like yourself, perhaps, and a few others I would have loved a tall defender in the mix, and probably would have preferred to have given Schneids a coaching role, but I'm glad we kept Fisher, Gilbert, Stephens, Armitage and Joey. Perhaps like you too I'm happy to defer to the recruiters on big picture questions cos I'm lovin the way they are “going about it”.

More power to us I reckon for embracing our self-belief, our roots and our culture, and being consistent in our message.

 

[Nutsngum]

What goes around comes around. Had we poached Cam Delaney would North be so gracious in future like they were with Luke Delaney?

 

[Kilroy]

A write-up from Skippos on Brenton Payne
.....Knightmare had Payne going at 87 in the ND in his draft.
.....Paige's write-up:

..... Brendon Payne I had in my top 60 or so, definitely a draft-able prospect, just not sure where he plays at the highest level. Came from the St Pats footy factory, too.

Payne was the 65th name on the draft machine, Paige had him at #62, Knightmare had Payne at #50 early on, and Chris25 had him at #46.
Overall he was the 78th pick out of the hundred plus who went in all the drafts, so that’s probably good value, if perceptions are anything to go by.

loving the payne pick

No Payne, no gain!


Brenton Payne - 2014 AFL Draft Prospect Highlights from youtube

 

[aussierulesrules]

Like I said earlier, I was told a couple of days ago that we rated both Sinclair and Payne as worth taking in the ND and heard tonight that we had Payne ranked pretty highly indeed (top 30, just) around the mid part of the year (presumably around champs time, when he was kicking regular goals there). May have dropped down the rankings after a less than stellar combine though and I'm not sure how well he finished off the season, either.

 

[maanco]

The way people talk on here, Nick Riewoldt does more coaching than 3 entire AFL staffs.

Nick himself needs constant monitoring and reinforcement of his own kicking motion. I sure as hell don't want him coaching others.
The best players often make the worst coaches, as they have talent that is just not possible to pass on and often will struggle how to articulate what, to them, comes naturally.
Mentorship is what those seniors can provide. Training habits. Dos and don'ts. Knowledge of opposition, tactics, nuances of playing venues such as prevailing wind direction and how firm the turf normally is.
They wont really have anything directly to do with a mediocre player becoming a 100 gamer.

Plus I'd want Roo focusing his mentoring on McCartin to make sure he makes it, and maybe Spencer White. Lets focus on the making sure our potential gun players become gun players. Anyone who succeeds off the bottom 20% of the list, which is what Payne and Sinclair are (actually the bottom 5% in their case), is a bonus.

This is Melbourne Demons thinking and look how it turned out to them...

All team members should be trying to help improve each others deficiency's, I would bet my house on it that Nick and the other senior players all do this on a regular basis. Lenny would have helped with tackling, whilst Roo would have helped with leading and work-rate and even things they may not be great at themselves. It helps with the teachers individual development along with the students. As a Professional team they are expected to help coach each other.

 

[Barrels]

Nick Riewoldt: 193 cm, Jarryd Roughead: 193 cm, Paddy McCartin: 193 cm.

.................

 

[cooperrules]

Payne was the 65th name on the draft machine, Paige had him at #62, Knightmare had Payne at #50 early on, and Chris25 had him at #46.
Overall he was the 78th pick out of the hundred plus who went in all the drafts, so that’s probably good value, if perceptions are anything to go by.

No Payne, no gain!


Brenton Payne - 2014 AFL Draft Prospect Highlights from youtube

He could be jarrad grant or jack gunston.

 

[cooperrules]

.................

Ease up I wouldnt be comparing him to the greatest athlete of the modern era and a premiership gun utility goal kicking machine just yet.

 

[TheJackal]

...My point though, is that given as a club we don't have infinite resources, and given almost our entire list is in development mode, I would want our development coaches to work with our highest-potential players as a priority. Then cascade down their attentions to those least likely to make it or with lowest perceived ceiling of ability.
That is the unpopular decision of a coach, and one that is horrible to make, but whilst the project player come good is often the best feeling for a coach, you have to be pragmatic and focus attention on the players who will matter more. You never know, these 2 young lads might both suddenly explode when they get AFL-level training behind them. I've seen it happen many times, when putting someone into a new environment and upping their work brings out ability in them that even they didn't realise they were capable of. That's the hope with those guys, but lets not start slotting them in as starters in our 2018 lineup.

I guess we will agree to disagree on the above point. I feel that if we are taking your line of thinking and not throwing our resources at every player on our list regardless of where they were drafted, why bother picking up a developing kid in the rookie draft at all?

Personally, I could see 'elite' groups of specialist coaching forming in the junior ranks, but it couldn't possibly be the case at AFL level.

 

[karaoke]

Nick Riewoldt: 193 cm, Jarryd Roughead: 193 cm, Paddy McCartin: 193 cm.

Brenton Payne: 193cm

 

[ike2112]

You realise that at some clubs, the senior coach won't even speak to the players at the bottom of the list, those playing at the VFL or NEAFL, any more than once a week at best? Watters was rumoured to be worse than that in terms of how much attention he gave the 'development kids'.

Say we got 4 players all needing help from a coach. The coach has 80 minutes. I don't want them equally splitting their time 20 minutes per player 1-on-1 time. I certainly don't want them going - "lets just spend 10 minutes on Paddy's kicking, because really this kid who we drafted in the 3rd round of the rookie draft needs the help more, so lets be good samaritans and focus on him".

I'm not saying ignore the bottom half of the list. I'm saying we only have limited resources, and the most important aspects of our club's future success is making sure that the players we expect to be elite AFL players achieve that potential - focus is on making sure Billings, Acres, McCartin, Goddard all become stars. If Josh Saunders happens to make it into an A-grader, brilliant. But that's a bonus, don't focus the coaching on that if it means spending less time on one of the future key cornerstones of our lineup. And given the staff the Saints have, I do genuinely believe we have quite limited resources and need to a apply them in a measured way. You don't need any more evidence of that than us only having part-time ruck coaches, and then last year going half the season without one at all. That's not exactly elite performance coaching.

 

[TheLastEmperor]

Nothing to base this on but I reckon Jack Sinclair will be a very good player. Has a bit of Jack Steven about him.


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[crasha301]

You realise that at some clubs, the senior coach won't even speak to the players at the bottom of the list, those playing at the VFL or NEAFL, any more than once a week at best? Watters was rumoured to be worse than that in terms of how much attention he gave the 'development kids'.

Say we got 4 players all needing help from a coach. The coach has 80 minutes. I don't want them equally splitting their time 20 minutes per player 1-on-1 time. I certainly don't want them going - "lets just spend 10 minutes on Paddy's kicking, because really this kid who we drafted in the 3rd round of the rookie draft needs the help more, so lets be good samaritans and focus on him".

I'm not saying ignore the bottom half of the list. I'm saying we only have limited resources, and the most important aspects of our club's future success is making sure that the players we expect to be elite AFL players achieve that potential - focus is on making sure Billings, Acres, McCartin, Goddard all become stars. If Josh Saunders happens to make it into an A-grader, brilliant. But that's a bonus, don't focus the coaching on that if it means spending less time on one of the future key cornerstones of our lineup. And given the staff the Saints have, I do genuinely believe we have quite limited resources and need to a apply them in a measured way. You don't need any more evidence of that than us only having part-time ruck coaches, and then last year going half the season without one at all. That's not exactly elite performance coaching.

Doesn't the development coach look after the kids at the bottom? I thought that was the point!

 

[Tommy Wigs]

Nothing to base this on but I reckon Jack Sinclair will be a very good player. Has a bit of Jack Steven about him.


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He looks like he has a bit of something doesn't he.

 

[Sir Skid]

Nothing to base this on but I reckon Jack Sinclair will be a very good player. Has a bit of Jack Steven about him

You mean he runs like a Duck??

 

[King_Steele]

He looks like he has a bit of something doesn't he.

Reminds me of Sam Dwyer, the way he plays.

 

[Defacto]

Some big calls in this thread. I love it!!!

 

[sammm]

"What about Jack Noone"
"Jack who?"
"Jack Noone"
"There's no other Jack?"
"Yes there is..."
"Who?"
"Jack Noone"
"Jack WHO?"
"Jack Noone"
"Jack who? Jack SOMEONE? WHO IS IT?"
"Jack NO ONE"
"F***************************CKING HELL!!!"

whose on first?

 

[dewah07]

Nothing to base this on but I reckon Jack Sinclair will be a very good player. Has a bit of Jack Steven about him.


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I reckon he has more zorko in him, more creativity and unpredictability compared to the more natural mid Steven who is an excellent extractor

 

[Rissoles]

He looks like he has a bit of something doesn't he.

Having coached Sinkers & Billings in their junior days, I would describe him as an 85% Jack Billings who is 4cm shorter.
Sinkers is not as naturally gifted as JB but he is super intelligent and a very hard worker.
They know how each other plays inside out so I'm looking forward to them both being permanent fixtures in our team in coming years.

 

[holllywood]

Having coached Sinkers & Billings in their junior days, I would describe him as an 85% Jack Billings who is 4cm shorter.
Sinkers is not as naturally gifted as JB but he is super intelligent and a very hard worker.
They know how each other plays inside out so I'm looking forward to them both being permanent fixtures in our team in coming years.

This is sick we have you on here.

In regards to Sinkers, what type of player do you see him becoming? HFF who can go into the middle? Full time midfielder?

And why do you reckon he didn't get picked up last year? Any glaring weaknesses we should know about?

 

[Tommy Wigs]

This is sick we have you on here.

In regards to Sinkers, what type of player do you see him becoming? HFF who can go into the middle? Full time midfielder?

And why do you reckon he didn't get picked up last year? Any glaring weaknesses we should know about?

Pretty sure he mainly played cricket last year and played only two TAC games at the end. Then played a combo of TAC and a few VFL games this year. Reportedly did well, which is a good sign that he might be one that can move up a level. That's what I have read, so not vouching for sheer accuracy!

 

[Rissoles]

This is sick we have you on here.

In regards to Sinkers, what type of player do you see him becoming? HFF who can go into the middle? Full time midfielder?

And why do you reckon he didn't get picked up last year? Any glaring weaknesses we should know about?

As Tommy Wigs so admirably reported, young Jack's enthusiasm for footy waned a bit in 2013. He's always been a good cricketer as well. My personal opinion is that he saw all his mates getting drafted and lost a bit of confidence. Two of his closest mates are Jack Billings and Luke McDonald.

He's a quiet bloke and keeps a lot of his thinking to himself. This year he obviously decided to not discard football without having a red hot crack and giving it a real go. Sinkers thrives on mateship and sticking together. He's going to get better and better being with one of his best mates.

Don't ignore the fact that our very competent recruiters knew all about the close relationship between Sinkers and JB, and what it could produce from both of them being together.

 

[St_Laz]

You realise that at some clubs, the senior coach won't even speak to the players at the bottom of the list, those playing at the VFL or NEAFL, any more than once a week at best? Watters was rumoured to be worse than that in terms of how much attention he gave the 'development kids'.

Say we got 4 players all needing help from a coach. The coach has 80 minutes. I don't want them equally splitting their time 20 minutes per player 1-on-1 time. I certainly don't want them going - "lets just spend 10 minutes on Paddy's kicking, because really this kid who we drafted in the 3rd round of the rookie draft needs the help more, so lets be good samaritans and focus on him".

I'm not saying ignore the bottom half of the list. I'm saying we only have limited resources, and the most important aspects of our club's future success is making sure that the players we expect to be elite AFL players achieve that potential - focus is on making sure Billings, Acres, McCartin, Goddard all become stars. If Josh Saunders happens to make it into an A-grader, brilliant. But that's a bonus, don't focus the coaching on that if it means spending less time on one of the future key cornerstones of our lineup. And given the staff the Saints have, I do genuinely believe we have quite limited resources and need to a apply them in a measured way. You don't need any more evidence of that than us only having part-time ruck coaches, and then last year going half the season without one at all. That's not exactly elite performance coaching.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but I really can't overstate how much I disagree with this approach.
It's a sure fire way to creat a two tiered group and exactly what a young developing club would want to avoid.
Jack Steven was a late-ish pick. When he turned good what could we say if he announced "Collingwood have offered me $500k, and the coach never spoke to me or gave me the time of day. Cya later".
"But you're good now so you'll get attention"?
Collingwood's rat pack was born out of this I reckon. Two sets of rules and two different standards.
Paddy got it right when he said "doesn't matter when you're picked we're all the same when we walk in the club."
I'd be shocked and disappointed if Richo treated anyone differently. (And I seriously doubt he does!)

 

[CALL ME SNAKE]

Just got congratulated by a melbourne supporter for welcoming back a drug cheat with the hashtag #culture.
Well I used to feel for the flogs, not now.

Weve got 1 flag in over 140 yrs.
Most other clubs supporters laugh at us.
Children Saints supporters had to listen to disgusting chants from most of those clubs cheersquads about Milney for 10 yrs
The wealthy clubs who cheated & paid for most of their premierships have been smug as all f*** towards us for a long time.

I can honestly say i have never ever had the slightest inkling of "feeling" for any of the other clubs.
Ill be happy when we rise again and start kicking some arse .