Roughie's role

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Ideally he would play ruck with Toyd relieving but is he good enough? Personally I never saw him making it as a back, and most of the discussion here centre's around where to fit him on the field.
For me its either he makes it as a ruck or we trade. Hawthorn would be looking fora Hale rreplacement would they not?
Just puttin' it out there.
 

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I'd wait until the trade season finishes before we make assumptions and analysis on where he's best suited. Should the Dogs pick up Stef Martin, Leuey or any other first-choice ruckman, Roughead will have to play as a second ruckman rotating down back. Should we get Carlisle and not another ruckman, it's likely that he'll play 1st choice ruck or combine with Minson. If we get a ruckman and Carlisle... I worry about his importance in the side. Anyway, there are thousands of possibilities which could occur depending on how the trade period goes, and IMO will be very determinate as to what Roughy plays as in 2016.

(As a side note, I wonder what do people think of him being combined with, if we get him, Carlisle down back? He could play as a pinch-hitting ruckman playing full-back on a physical, less athletic forward (Tippett, Hawkins, Dawes etc.), however he would have to work hard on getting his body right and perfecting the mental aspects)
 
He n
Gollo said:
I'd wait until the trade season finishes before we make assumptions and analysis on where he's best suited. Should the Dogs pick up Stef Martin, Leuey or any other first-choice ruckman, Roughead will have to play as a second ruckman rotating down back. Should we get Carlisle and not another ruckman, it's likely that he'll play 1st choice ruck or combine with Minson. If we get a ruckman and Carlisle... I worry about his importance in the side. Anyway, there are thousands of possibilities which could occur depending on how the trade period goes, and IMO will be very determinate as to what Roughy plays as in 2016.

(As a side note, I wonder what do people think of him being combined with, if we get him, Carlisle down back? He could play as a pinch-hitting ruckman playing full-back on a physical, less athletic forward (Tippett, Hawkins, Dawes etc.), however he would have to work hard on getting his body right and perfecting the mental aspects)
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He needs a better haircut (something a bit spiky) and to get rid of that bum fluff masquerading as facial hair. He's got no excuses, has plenty of experience and should be playing better football by now, as he is capable of it.
 
Libba39 said:
Ideally he would play ruck with Toyd relieving but is he good enough? Personally I never saw him making it as a back, and most of the discussion here centre's around where to fit him on the field.
For me its either he makes it as a ruck or we trade. Hawthorn would be looking fora Hale rreplacement would they not?
Just puttin' it out there.
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Agree. I think the combination of Boyd and Beveridge's gameplan make things difficult for Roughead. Going forward, Boyd is the perfect second ruck because:
  1. He will be a weapon in his primary position, unlike most second ruckmen who are liabilities when they aren't in the ruck
  2. He will be much better in the ruck than other pinch-hitters who are really just key-forwards
If you look around the league, the players who can already fulfil/will probably fulfil the two criteria above are Darcy Moore, Joe Daniher, Dixon, Petrie (who doesn't tend to ruck, but he can) and Tippett (you could make a case for Jenkins, but I don't think his ruckwork is great). Boyd is a rare beast. In order to make full use of him (and not be exploited by pacy opposition defences) he should be spending 10-20% of the game in the ruck, with a Martin/Goldstein type ruckman playing as first ruck. This effectively makes 50-50 ruckmen (like Roughead at the moment) obsolete.

If we played Roughead as a 50-50 ruck, we would need another 50-50 ruck, which (coupled with Boyd) would make us too big and slow in the forward line, which doesn't fit with Beveridge's men of mayhem mantra. Roughead should ideally be paired with someone like Blicavs or Kreuzer and playing for a team who don't have a player like Boyd.

While most teams have second ruckmen who roughead can match up on well in defence, we need to ask ourselves whether this actually improves us as a team. The reality is that the vast majority of these second ruckmen are liabilities for their current teams- liabilities who we exploited time and again this year by playing undersized opponents on them. Yes, we were hurt by gun key forwards this year, but we weren't hurt by the vast majority of second ruckmen (even when Rough wasn't playing). The extra rebound that we get from playing an undersized opponent on a lumbering second ruck greatly outweighs the impact that second ruck can have by taking the occasional contested mark, so our defence is better without Roughead.

Unless Roughead develops into a first ruckman (which he could do as he gets a bit older) I don't see him fitting into our best 22.
 
Fultons said:
He n

He needs a better haircut (something a bit spiky) and to get rid of that bum fluff masquerading as facial hair. He's got no excuses, has plenty of experience and should be playing better football by now, as he is capable of it.
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The worry isn't his level of footy, he's playing up with the best in the Dogs 22. The worry is simply his role, and that he may end up as a useless cog in a team on the rise. I really like Roughead as a player and would really like to see him combine with someone in a ruck role in 2016.
 
Roughie IMO had his best patch as a KPD in the first 6-8 rounds this year. Then he was injured, played ruck, went ruck/forward, injured again ... I felt he had just settled into a position (KPD) and then was thrown into the ruck experiment with Campbell, Will and Ayce.

I think the Carlisle trade is key. Without Carlisle I don't see Hamling holding down a KPD post against the monsters (Like Tippet/Buddy, Cameron/Patton, Kennedy/Darling). Roberts will need Roughie. With Carlisle ... I'm not sold on Roughie as first ruck. Like his KPD work, it might take him 3 years to show his wares ... then he'll be tossed ... forward???
 
Gollo said:
The worry isn't his level of footy, he's playing up with the best in the Dogs 22. The worry is simply his role, and that he may end up as a useless cog in a team on the rise. I really like Roughead as a player and would really like to see him combine with someone in a ruck role in 2016.
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Hmmmm don't agree that his recent form (2015) is best 22. That is probably injury related. I think he's a KPD/swingman. If he's so slow why was he drafted? (I never really watched him and thought s**t he's slow) others on here infer it. Hope he's working on building his pace and tank not just along with everybody I mean fanatically. I too like Roughead ( bee earnt respect playing key back when he was just a kid) this should now hold him in good stead...... So it's time for his performance to match his size, experience and potential. He's coming to that age for big men when the hardyards of his apprenticeship come to fruition. Get it right and he adds considerable upside to us from 2015. Gollo - you may be bang on and a combined ruck role would see him flourish, would love to see it for his and the teams sake.
 
bobby2 said:
Agree. I think the combination of Boyd and Beveridge's gameplan make things difficult for Roughead. Going forward, Boyd is the perfect second ruck because:
  1. He will be a weapon in his primary position, unlike most second ruckmen who are liabilities when they aren't in the ruck
  2. He will be much better in the ruck than other pinch-hitters who are really just key-forwards
If you look around the league, the players who can already fulfil/will probably fulfil the two criteria above are Darcy Moore, Joe Daniher, Dixon, Petrie (who doesn't tend to ruck, but he can) and Tippett (you could make a case for Jenkins, but I don't think his ruckwork is great). Boyd is a rare beast. In order to make full use of him (and not be exploited by pacy opposition defences) he should be spending 10-20% of the game in the ruck, with a Martin/Goldstein type ruckman playing as first ruck. This effectively makes 50-50 ruckmen (like Roughead at the moment) obsolete.

If we played Roughead as a 50-50 ruck, we would need another 50-50 ruck, which (coupled with Boyd) would make us too big and slow in the forward line, which doesn't fit with Beveridge's men of mayhem mantra. Roughead should ideally be paired with someone like Blicavs or Kreuzer and playing for a team who don't have a player like Boyd.

While most teams have second ruckmen who roughead can match up on well in defence, we need to ask ourselves whether this actually improves us as a team. The reality is that the vast majority of these second ruckmen are liabilities for their current teams- liabilities who we exploited time and again this year by playing undersized opponents on them. Yes, we were hurt by gun key forwards this year, but we weren't hurt by the vast majority of second ruckmen (even when Rough wasn't playing). The extra rebound that we get from playing an undersized opponent on a lumbering second ruck greatly outweighs the impact that second ruck can have by taking the occasional contested mark, so our defence is better without Roughead.

Unless Roughead develops into a first ruckman (which he could do as he gets a bit older) I don't see him fitting into our best 22.
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That's exactly as I see the situation as well Bobby. Roughy needs to develop into a good 80% ruckman very quickly or he has a limited future with us.
 
Roughies form fluctuates very much with his health. His key defensive work has been very good when fit, and when fit against Norf he was very good against Goldy.
I see him as the second ruck, pretty much tagging the second ruck from the opposition with the capability of becoming first ruck if things aren't working out.
I have absolutely no doubt he becomes a very good player if his body can hold up for a little while!
 
Mutt said:
That's exactly as I see the situation as well Bobby. Roughy needs to develop into a good 80% ruckman very quickly or he has a limited future with us.
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If he's willing to be in and out of the team for the next few years, I still think he's got plenty of time as a bulldog. Ruckmen mature late, and if he sticks around until his late 20s, I think there's a fair chance we'll see the 80% ruckman we want. But he's certainly not that yet- he's just not durable enough.
fargy said:
Roughies form fluctuates very much with his health. His key defensive work has been very good when fit, and when fit against Norf he was very good against Goldy.
I see him as the second ruck, pretty much tagging the second ruck from the opposition with the capability of becoming first ruck if things aren't working out.
I have absolutely no doubt he becomes a very good player if his body can hold up for a little while!
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Beveridge doesn't like tagging and it's pointless to tag a player who is largely ineffective already (opposition second rucks) when you can instead play off them and take advantage of their weaknesses. The reason to tag is to neutralise a match up with a good player, not neutralise a match up with a poor player. Agree though that he was great against goldy- this has to be his role long term.
 

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bobby2 said:
If he's willing to be in and out of the team for the next few years, I still think he's got plenty of time as a bulldog. Ruckmen mature late, and if he sticks around until his late 20s, I think there's a fair chance we'll see the 80% ruckman we want. But he's certainly not that yet- he's just not durable enough.

Beveridge doesn't like tagging and it's pointless to tag a player who is largely ineffective already (opposition second rucks) when you can instead play off them and take advantage of their weaknesses. The reason to tag is to neutralise a match up with a good player, not neutralise a match up with a poor player. Agree though that he was great against goldy- this has to be his role long term.
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Sorry probably worded poorly but he did some very good jobs following the second ruck at stages this year, and his job against Goldy was very much negating. Neautralising a second ruck in our backline is very important going on last history for us. No need to be patronising, I know what a tagger does :)
 
fargy said:
Sorry probably worded poorly but he did some very good jobs following the second ruck at stages this year, and his job against Goldy was very much negating. Neautralising a second ruck in our backline is very important going on last history for us. No need to be patronising, I know what a tagger does :)
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Sorry about the patronising, I shouldn't have said that part. I really don't think there is a need to neutralise the vast majority of second rucks. In the modern game, they almost neutralise themselves. They also provide us with an opportunity to zone off to cover better forwards and run out of the backline, which we waste by playing roughead on them. He played well on second rucks, but we are better as a team when we let someone like Biggs/hamling take most second rucks. His job against goldy was excellent, and helped the team much more because he was actually negating a useful player.
 
bobby2 said:
Sorry about the patronising, I shouldn't have said that part. I really don't think there is a need to neutralise the vast majority of second rucks. In the modern game, they almost neutralise themselves. They also provide us with an opportunity to zone off to cover better forwards and run out of the backline, which we waste by playing roughead on them. He played well on second rucks, but we are better as a team when we let someone like Biggs/hamling take most second rucks. His job against goldy was excellent, and helped the team much more because he was actually negating a useful player.
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Yeah that's fair enough, a bit of luck he just becomes our number one ruck and that's one less issue for us!
 
Seems odd that we are having a crack at landing a 24yo 198-200cm KPD from another club when we have Roughy who is 24yo 200cm KPD/Ruck already on our list.

So what's the difference?
Pace? Marking ability? (Roughead's not bad at that after all) Leap? Versatility? Body strength? Footy smarts?

Roughy is pretty handy at most of those and will still improve in the next 2-3 years. Biggest weakness is maybe pace.

From hearsay he's miles in front of JC in terms of character/team spirit and leadership.
 
dogwatch said:
Seems odd that we are having a crack at landing a 24yo 198-200cm KPD from another club when we have Roughy who is 24yo 200cm KPD/Ruck already on our list.

So what's the difference?
Pace? Marking ability? (Roughead's not bad at that after all) Leap? Versatility? Body strength? Footy smarts?

Roughy is pretty handy at most of those and will still improve in the next 2-3 years. Biggest weakness is maybe pace.

From hearsay he's miles in front of JC in terms of character/team spirit and leadership.
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It seems to me that we've been pretty half-hearted about Carlisle and that his Manager understands this. I'm pretty confident we won't lose any sleep over missing out.
 
I'm locking him in for ruck, which is a total backflip on the start of the year (notice how I have myself a plug on another thread?)

Think he's nice and springy in the bounces and has lovely touch. Can't handle it all but is a very clever player.

Go hard for key back depth dogs but the list looks good
 
just finished watching our game vs WCE- he was brilliant at setting up the zone, excellent in his one on ones, kills the high ball. I still like him for ruck, but i hope, and am confident that Bevo will see it this way, that we utilise his flexibility, not inhibit it.

He's a real key for us this bloke
 
Will be really interesting to see where he's doing the majority of his pre-season work. Really important year for him next year. For me the ideal would be to play him as a first ruck. He's shown good signs in the role and it'd be such a great structure to have him do it 80% with Boyd filling in the rest. Really hope this works out.
 
I have no idea if he is better suited to ruck or key back, I'm not 100% sure our coaching staff do either yet haha. I guess it depends on if big Tom Campbell really comes on this year which he could with a big pre-season, Roughy could be a valuable utility for us, helping down back when we need him, working as an extra tall up forward etc. People have written him off as capable of going forward which I feel is unfair. It takes big games a long time to learn how to play that ruck / fwd role and he hasn't had much time playing as a fwd yet to learn it. Not advocating him as a permanent fwd or anything, I just think he could still become a good ruck / resting fwd when we throw Boyd in the middle. We might not have a choice where we play him next year with our lack of depth down back, another Fletch injury and we will need him there.
 
boydshow said:
I think we're doing the right thing getting him to focus on the ruck in his preseason training. Let's see what he can produce after that
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Has someone said this is happening? Glad to hear it.
 
I think he will be fighting for a game. I think he knows this. Its actually a good thing and may bring out the best in him. I don't think he is a backman, its not Bevo go, he likes a fast moving defence, so that leaves ruck or ruck forward. He will be fighting for those spots.
 
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