Review Round 13, 2015 - Brisbane Lions vs Adelaide

[Skoob]

Kind of feel for the players in regard to the message being delivered by the coaching staff. Previously it was 'we had to slow it down' and now 'we have to take the game on speed it up'. Which one is it?

 

[James North]

I think it depends on the situation and the team.

 

[jackess]

I don't think we should underestimate the effort it takes for us to stay competitive in games against better sides. Nothing is easy for us. Our best ball movement requires numerous players running in waves. They then know that an undersized and underdeveloped defence needs the midfield to flood back really hard when Adelaide have the footy. We also push extra numbers at stoppages because our contested footy is a weakness. Add in the fact that we still make so many wrong decisions (handballing to Leuenberger when we're on the rebound should be seen as a cardinal sin) and that all adds up at the end of games.

This is not sustainable football. It is great to watch and I very much want them to keep going at it but it does require 22 match hardened, fit footballers to pull it off regularly and we don't have that.

Just to give an example. Green pushed up to every stoppage other than centre bounces. If we won clean footy, he'd take off up forward. If it was in dispute, he'd keep working. If Adelaide had it, his job was to tackle and pressure while other midfielders pushed back. That is incredibly taxing and inevitably takes away from his ability to perform a pure small forward role. Contrast with Eddie Betts who rarely went to stoppages outside the forward fifty and would often set up 20-30 metres forward of the last defender in the hope of pinching cheap goals. One small forward is up and running at the end of the game, the other can barely lift his legs.

There is always a trade off for football tactics. None of us want to see the slow, chipping style we've reverted to. None of us want to see the "kick long to the boundary" as the only tactic rather than the last resort. But last night showed that the trade off for an up tempo, numbers at the footy game plan is going to be fatigue unless we: (a) get fitter; (b) play smarter; or (c) stop making errors. When we get to "all of the above", we'll probably see greater consistency in our games.

Nitpicking but Betts has been playing up the field more this year. Saw him on the wing a few times last night and have seen him at centre bounces in past weeks.

 

[AFLQLD]

I don't think we should underestimate the effort it takes for us to stay competitive in games against better sides. Nothing is easy for us. Our best ball movement requires numerous players running in waves. They then know that an undersized and underdeveloped defence needs the midfield to flood back really hard when Adelaide have the footy. We also push extra numbers at stoppages because our contested footy is a weakness. Add in the fact that we still make so many wrong decisions (handballing to Leuenberger when we're on the rebound should be seen as a cardinal sin) and that all adds up at the end of games.

This is not sustainable football. It is great to watch and I very much want them to keep going at it but it does require 22 match hardened, fit footballers to pull it off regularly and we don't have that.

Just to give an example. Green pushed up to every stoppage other than centre bounces. If we won clean footy, he'd take off up forward. If it was in dispute, he'd keep working. If Adelaide had it, his job was to tackle and pressure while other midfielders pushed back. That is incredibly taxing and inevitably takes away from his ability to perform a pure small forward role. Contrast with Eddie Betts who rarely went to stoppages outside the forward fifty and would often set up 20-30 metres forward of the last defender in the hope of pinching cheap goals. One small forward is up and running at the end of the game, the other can barely lift his legs.

There is always a trade off for football tactics. None of us want to see the slow, chipping style we've reverted to. None of us want to see the "kick long to the boundary" as the only tactic rather than the last resort. But last night showed that the trade off for an up tempo, numbers at the footy game plan is going to be fatigue unless we: (a) get fitter; (b) play smarter; or (c) stop making errors. When we get to "all of the above", we'll probably see greater consistency in our games.

This is a really good analysis of the whole "running out of legs" thing. It is cumulative throughout the game. The effects are noticeable late in quarters and especially late in the last quarter. The effort required for one single long defensive run for a player at that stage is extremely taxing. The fitness of our younger players has a direct impact on the legs that our more mature players have left at the end of the game. It has little to do with what the fitness staff can do in the short term, little to do with individual will power and little to do with players not caring.

The best we can do with fitness is really work on big preseasons for our younger players without pushing them over the brink into injury. Think about the challenge to get 18 and 19 year olds to put on muscle rapidly (but legally) while they may still be growing, build endurance significantly without sacrificing muscle building, improve speed, develop football skills, teach tactics and avoid injury, all at the same time.

 

[POBT]

Nitpicking but Betts has been playing up the field more this year. Saw him on the wing a few times last night and have seen him at centre bounces in past weeks.

It was the exception rather than the norm. I watched pretty closely because the Adelaide supporter next to me was criticising his workrate.

 

[POBT]

I thought the decision to send Adcock forward was a really good one. Half forwards do a lot of power running these days and I thought Jed was great with the up and back required.

The other thing I liked was Hanley at centre bounces. I'm not sure his body is ready for a full time midfield role but gee he adds a point of difference with his movement and reaction time.

 

[POBT]

The worst thing is we always go for the same wing. Opposition coaches probably just say to their charges "Just line up along the Stanley street wing boys, it'll sort itself out."

I've got a theory that coaches want play directed more towards the wing with the player interchange area. When the ball is at stoppages on the opposite side for prolonged periods, it can really hinder the rotations. Maybe this is more important for us given we concede more inside 50s and also have a younger side who can't gut run for as long.

 

[Big Lion]

Our lack of A grade talent is a major problem, but no doubt the biggest issue is our lack of squad depth. I'm hopeful over the next few years we can continue to improve our recruiting and force players to challenge for spots in the 22.

There is no way on current form James AIsh should be playing, but we have no one else

Don't fall for James Aish's current form, you watch him come good next year lining up for someone else.

 

[Ironmonger]

I don't think we should underestimate the effort it takes for us to stay competitive in games against better sides. Nothing is easy for us. Our best ball movement requires numerous players running in waves. They then know that an undersized and underdeveloped defence needs the midfield to flood back really hard when Adelaide have the footy. We also push extra numbers at stoppages because our contested footy is a weakness. Add in the fact that we still make so many wrong decisions (handballing to Leuenberger when we're on the rebound should be seen as a cardinal sin) and that all adds up at the end of games.

The question for me is if you weigh up all the factors, does it justify what I thought was a pretty dramatic drop off in intensity from fairly early in the third quarter.

And ultimately I don't think it does, really. Particularly as while the Crows might be a better side on most days, they absolutely stunk in the first half and surely burned through at least as much energy as we did chasing sloppy passes.

There might be an additional psychological element: we perceive ourselves as a team that's prone to falling away late.

 

[jackess]

The question for me is if you weigh up all the factors, does it justify what I thought was a pretty dramatic drop off in intensity from fairly early in the third quarter.

And ultimately I don't think it does, really. Particularly as while the Crows might be a better side on most days, they absolutely stunk in the first half and surely burned through at least as much energy as we did chasing sloppy passes.

There might be an additional psychological element: we perceive ourselves as a team that's prone to falling away late.

Losing culture. No confidence.

 

[POBT]

The question for me is if you weigh up all the factors, does it justify what I thought was a pretty dramatic drop off in intensity from fairly early in the third quarter.

And ultimately I don't think it does, really. Particularly as while the Crows might be a better side on most days, they absolutely stunk in the first half and surely burned through at least as much energy as we did chasing sloppy passes.

There might be an additional psychological element: we perceive ourselves as a team that's prone to falling away late.

I think it did. I think that a difference between the two clubs is that Adelaide have more to give so, all things being equal, were always going to run out the game better. The second is that Adelaide, while not necessarily playing lazy footy, weren't playing the same energy sapping way. We consistently pushed more numbers back to flood defence. We also consistently put an extra number or two at the contest. As the superior side, Adelaide could afford to roll the dice a bit more and rely on guys winning contests without needing help. It was obvious to me that, wherever the ball was, there were more
Lions. Surely we can then accept that there is a price to pay for that.

Don't get me wrong. None of this excuses the side not running out the game and, if that's our game style, then fitness levels have to lift. But I think we do need to take into account factors other than pure fitness. I think there's a tendency to over-simplify this issue.

 

[lukiuslion]

Really really unimpressed that Darcy is being left out of our side. Can't really justify that decision IMO - seems like another example of 'over coaching' at the selection table. He and Clarke should be getting as many games together as possible during the otherwise 'waste' if a year. Same goes for Sammy Mayes, sure these first year guys need time but let's not neglect our 2-3-4 year guys too. Bring back big Darcy!!!!

 

[POBT]

Reckon the selection panel is on a hiding to nothing on this board.

 

[POBT]

Clever use of Stef Martin this week. He had a Westhoff type licence to roam. Because of his work around the stoppages as the third man up, Adelaide often sent Talia with him which fragmented their defence.

One thing I'd like to see us do is throw him behind the footy late in quarters when our younger blokes start flagging.

 

[rusty08]

I don't see it as mixed messages with the run and gun vs slowing the play down, we obviously want to be able to execute both styles in the same game. For large parts of the season we have executed one or both parts poorly and that has been the issue. We can't run and gun if the play breaks down just outside the stoppage and we can't slow the tempo if we just hand the ball straight back to the opposition.

Against Port was the only time we have done both well.

Yeah look I agree that you need a combination of both in this game, however for us its either one or the other, with you stating port was the only time. That's where my mixed messages comes in a bit. As a young group, trying to combine the both at the appropriate time is proving difficult.

 

[jackess]

Really really unimpressed that Darcy is being left out of our side. Can't really justify that decision IMO - seems like another example of 'over coaching' at the selection table. He and Clarke should be getting as many games together as possible during the otherwise 'waste' if a year. Same goes for Sammy Mayes, sure these first year guys need time but let's not neglect our 2-3-4 year guys too. Bring back big Darcy!!!!

It's pretty simple for me when Paparone tries to defend Walker which one I'd rather down back. He's clearly a better defender than Beasley and should take his spot this week.

 

[jjami15]

I've got a theory that coaches want play directed more towards the wing with the player interchange area. When the ball is at stoppages on the opposite side for prolonged periods, it can really hinder the rotations. Maybe this is more important for us given we concede more inside 50s and also have a younger side who can't gut run for as long.

We sit on the Northern side and do comment about the majority of play over there. We cheer when it comes down our side.

 

[lionshine]

Clever use of Stef Martin this week. He had a Westhoff type licence to roam. Because of his work around the stoppages as the third man up, Adelaide often sent Talia with him which fragmented their defence.

One thing I'd like to see us do is throw him behind the footy late in quarters when our younger blokes start flagging.

How impressive is Martin's work rate? Especially for a big guy. His efforts to get to every contest in addition to running back to help the defenders, push forward to be an option and work around the ground to present as a marking option are first class.

 

[fairfooty]

This is a really good analysis of the whole "running out of legs" thing. It is cumulative throughout the game. The effects are noticeable late in quarters and especially late in the last quarter. The effort required for one single long defensive run for a player at that stage is extremely taxing. The fitness of our younger players has a direct impact on the legs that our more mature players have left at the end of the game. It has little to do with what the fitness staff can do in the short term, little to do with individual will power and little to do with players not caring.

The best we can do with fitness is really work on big preseasons for our younger players without pushing them over the brink into injury. Think about the challenge to get 18 and 19 year olds to put on muscle rapidly (but legally) while they may still be growing, build endurance significantly without sacrificing muscle building, improve speed, develop football skills, teach tactics and avoid injury, all at the same time.

Forgive the intrusion - but I watched the game from Adelaide and I think thats a very accurate post. You guys are good - make no mistake about that. We were very lucky to get out of that. From here it looked like your young 'uns simply ran out of puff - and with tired bodies can come poorer decision-making. It looked like you simply stopped in the final quarter - and damn lucky for us you did. That combined with our bigger bodies and better fitness and ability to run out a game was the only thing that saved us. We couldn't hit the side of a barn yesterday. I dread the match you really run out 4 quarters. That was truly the only difference IMO - and its a straight forward fix. Good luck for the rest of the season.

 

[Cousin Jed]

Gardiner got beaten in the magoos particularly the first half. Nothing screamed pick me

 

[jackess]

Our whole second half apart from about 5 minutes during the third term was awful. The Crows had 18 scoring shots in the second half and should've won pretty comfortably. We came out in the second half and didn't work nearly hard enough. I think it was mainly mental.

 

[jackess]

Gardiner got beaten in the magoos particularly the first half. Nothing screamed pick me

Playing on who? Brooksby?

 

[carnthemlions]

I don't see it as mixed messages with the run and gun vs slowing the play down, we obviously want to be able to execute both styles in the same game. For large parts of the season we have executed one or both parts poorly and that has been the issue. We can't run and gun if the play breaks down just outside the stoppage and we can't slow the tempo if we just hand the ball straight back to the opposition.

Against Port was the only time we have done both well.

What we're trying to do is very hard to execute with a young side because it involves reading what the opposition is doing and adapting our play accordingly, but it's extremely effective when we get it right with and without the ball.

It's pretty simple for me when Paparone tries to defend Walker which one I'd rather down back. He's clearly a better defender than Beasley and should take his spot this week.

Beasley was well beaten last week, but he did a good job on Lynch yesterday. I doubt we'll drop him after that(Freo aren't exactly stacked with key forwards either).

 

[Hollow Knight]

Kinda shitty that the week after we discover a bit of confidence in our attacking game, we have to go to Perth and play the best defensive team in the league.

 

[Skoob]

Gardiner got beaten in the magoos particularly the first half. Nothing screamed pick me

I reckon he's been carrying a niggle since pre-season. Most games, he'll get up from at least one hard contest, nursing his arm/shoulder which is always strapped. He has played for much the same reason Rich is playing, lack of options. At the minute, we have a few options to play as well or better while he gains some strength back in that shoulder.
Just because a player plays, doesn't mean they're fit, and the level or type of fitness/injury can determine their ranking and whether they play seniors, reserves or rest.