Ruck and Roll

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JTCWBFC

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I feel like this topic deserves it own thread for the dogs as it seems to be an evolving beast every week.

In the first 4 weeks we have seen the following structures:

Rd 1 - Minson with Boyd (and sometimes Redpath) supporting
Rd 2 - Minson with Ayce supporting
Rd 3 - Minson with Ayce and Boyd supporting
Rd 4 - Ayce with Roughead and rarely Boyd supporting

Ayce was okay tonight, better than previously but was comprehensively beaten (albeit by a VERY good opposition in Jacobs).

I feel our team overall worked better today, not sure this is fully attributable to the change in ruck structure though.

I personally like having Roughead support as it allows us to leave Toyd forward and not compromise forward structure. No against throwing Toyd in if he isn't getting his hands on the pill though.

Roughead in support is only an option though if the teams 2nd KPF is their back up ruckman, otherwise Roughead would need to stay back.

So 2 questions, what do we do next week and what does everything think is our best structure for the rest of the year and into the future. Do we have a best structure, or does it need to change week to week depending on the opposition?
 

TMoney22

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We have a point of difference that no team in the AFL has. Roughead!!
All teams backup ruckman are forwards. Roughead is perfect to match up on them all game. This gives us 2 things we dont need to worry about;
  1. we don't need to think too much about the resting ruckman
  2. we don't need to compromise our forward line with a support ruckman

I agree with your thoughts. Roughy should be the backup ruckman. We don't have that forward/ruck and I cant see us having one in the next 3-4 years. Minson/Campbell/Cordy can't play forward. Playing them forward is a waste of a player and limits our tactics and flexibility.

Unfortunately to make this work 100% we need a another KPD or gun KP swingman. Or both.

When T.Boyd builds a tank, he should also have a go at rucking a few times a game. He has great skills and remember when T.Hawkins went into the ruck, he won a few games in 5 minute patches.
 
Jacobs may have beaten Ayce by statistics, but I thought he was useless around the ground.

OK he won the hitouts, but he was a massive useless tree trunk with 0 zero decision making skills across half back

Ayce gets stuck in and brings the ball to advantage a surprising % of the time

I can see now what Bev sees in him

And Roughy is a gem now that Talia is in the side. We are going up up up
 

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Last week I wrote (in the Five Things We Have Learned thread) that we have some serious long term problems in the ruck because:
  • Cordy wasn't going to cut it
  • Minson is already 30
  • Campbell's form had stagnated
I stand by most of that. The genius Beveridge has shown is that he can craft an effective game plan with the available materials. He did that today, but:
  • Cordy is still no cert to make it, even though he played a much better game today. Congrats to him, but most of the credit goes to the coaches' match planning.
  • Minson is now a week older and didn't dominate the VFL game as you'd expect a recent AA ruckman to do. We need to find out whether his decline is fixable or terminal.
  • Campbell DID play a much improved game in the VFL but he provides the only genuine ruck backup to Minson and Cordy. It's a long way from proven that he can provide the versatility, skill and consistency required to be a leading ruckman at AFL level.
I guess we can now add Roughead to that list - he probably fared better while in the ruck than Cordy, but for the moment at least Roughead is needed in defence.

In answer to the OP: I think we need to decide on a week to week basis. I trust in Bev to get that right. While Cordy, Minson, Campbell and Roughead remain fit we do have some options - none of them ideal, but enough to fashion a week-by-week game plan. Dog help us though if we lose two of these players to injury.
 
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I hate seeing Roughie in the ruck. I just get so worried about his shoulders. He's too valuable for us to risk them (though I am probably being overprotective, no doubt Rough puts his arms through more when he's wrestling for a grab or spoil).
 

JTCWBFC

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This took another interesting turn on the weekend with Roberts in the team and Ayce being subbed. Where to from here? Any predictions of how we will structure up next week?


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Trying to look at the pros of playing cordy:

Pros

1. Cordy can "shadow" the opposition number 1 ruckman and defend reasonably well when the opposition ruckman rests forward. Minson can't.

2. This allows roughie to get time in the ruck as well. If Pyke/Jacobs rest forward, and Minson is playing, then roughie has to attend to them, and can't get time in the ruck where he's very effective in the air and around the ground.

3. Cordy being able to "rest" back means he can play more game time and we can rotate our mids more heavily. Where does Minson rest effectively other than the bench?

4. Cordy resting back, allowing roughie to ruck, means Boyd stays forward more.

I don't buy the "Cordy fills space better around the ground" thing. Minson is actually an outstanding runner. A better runner than Cordy.

I don't know. It all seems like a bit of a reach. It's working though so all power to the drink.

No question we'll be shopping hard for an athletic, mobile, versatile ruckman in the off-season though.
 

stefoid

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Trying to look at the pros of playing cordy:

Pros

1. Cordy can "shadow" the opposition number 1 ruckman and defend reasonably well when the opposition ruckman rests forward. Minson can't.

2. This allows roughie to get time in the ruck as well. If Pyke/Jacobs rest forward, and Minson is playing, then roughie has to attend to them, and can't get time in the ruck where he's very effective in the air and around the ground.

3. Cordy being able to "rest" back means he can play more game time and we can rotate our mids more heavily. Where does Minson rest effectively other than the bench?

4. Cordy resting back, allowing roughie to ruck, means Boyd stays forward more.

I don't buy the "Cordy fills space better around the ground" thing. Minson is actually an outstanding runner. A better runner than Cordy.

I don't know. It all seems like a bit of a reach. It's working though so all power to the drink.

No question we'll be shopping hard for an athletic, mobile, versatile ruckman in the off-season though.

Anything Cordy can do, Roughead can do 10 times better, and would be doing if we werent so strapped for key defenders.

enter Fletcher Roberts.
 

JTCWBFC

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Anything Cordy can do, Roughead can do 10 times better, and would be doing if we werent so strapped for key defenders.

enter Fletcher Roberts.

Don't think we can just play Roberts and Talia down back though, ie this week we will likely need match ups for Roo, Bruce and Hickey
 

JTCWBFC

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We cant keep conceding a zillion forward 50 entries from centre bounces though, either.

I more meant we would need to bring in someone like Hamling as additional defensive cover if we go with Rough in the ruck.
 

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Cori

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We cant keep conceding a zillion forward 50 entries from centre bounces though, either.
We're doing alright so far!

All jokes aside, despite his horrible tap work, Cordy still fills our needs at the moment. Roughy is the perfect back up ruck / defender and needs to stay in that role. If we can poach an athletic number 1 ruck this off season then we'll be sitting pretty. For now, I really feel we persevere with Ayce.
 

stefoid

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I more meant we would need to bring in someone like Hamling as additional defensive cover if we go with Rough in the ruck.

Hes going to be in the mix, and apparently he is the one of the fasted at the club according to JJ, but he doesnt have anything like the tank to go with Riewolt, unfortunately.

I think Hamling is going to be a slow burn, but worth the wait. But he might have to bide until Morris plug before he gets a regular gig. Still, Morris is out right now...
 
At this point in time Roughead is our best ruckman. He is too valuable as a key back to lose tot he middle. Minson has to come in - Cordy has battled hard but is just getting monstered. He is very good at running to spots to form our full ground one (very noticeable when elevated at Etihad) but that's about all he offers.
 

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