Vdubs
Hall of Famer
better not read my post above- sort of highlights all you have said
Strategy Ruck Issues
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But by July he was named in the U18 all Australian team. He couldn't have been that far under the radar
Vdubs
Hall of Famer
True.
Reading that thread, JT was def rated by one Tas Cat fan at least, and KM admitted he hadn't seen enough.
Sounds to me another inspired choice by Wells.
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To be clear im not saying thurlow isnt any good. If grundy wasnt available id of taken thurlow, but I still consider it a travisty that we didnt take grundy for the reasons listed in this thread.
I strongly disagree with this. Biggest mistake? Im not even sure it was a mistake at all... but his biggest mistake ..nowhere near it..imo.
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Definitely was in my opinion and will stick by it. Please dont tell me how good thurlow is, because I agree and I like him. I just think it was a massive mistake not taking grundy.
I have tried to explain above, im not being black and white so dont turn it into a black and white argument re: thurlows this and grundys that because its irrelevant. We needed a ruckman, he was there and we didnt take him. Massive mistake. Dont use hindsight either, my opinion is based on the facts at the time. Grundy was highly rated.
Nice word.
Pretty much agree with the sentiment... but rather than Holistic , I'd say he likes a uteistic approach... From Enright to Kelly to Duncan to Guthrie..he like mulit-role players of a certain size and talent , ideally with the best skills engrained. Its seems to be a method he/they feel maximises their early picks Maybe it goes back to Peter Street , but using our first pick on tall ruck types is a bit too uni-role for his/their taste.
You are entitled to your opinion , as are all on this board.
and "Biggest mistake ever" is a rear vision type , absolute comment that takes into account every draft he has participated in..since 95
Whether we needed another ruck at the time is not something I'm disputing just that its his worst mistake ever... when taking Thurlow is not yet something im prepared to concede is a mistake at all or even flawed judgement choice. Yes Grundy had a high pre draft rating , I liked him myself but plenty of players can have a high pre draft rating and a consequently looked at as a costly pick once in the system. Leuenburger is the classic example id say. Why Brisbane never took Selwood , when he had a brother on their list. Peter Wright may end up being like that for the Suns , but I wouldn't have minded him either... But if we look at games played for pick used Thurlow , by the end of his career will not even be a mistake, let alone his biggest.
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If your stuck out in the bush with a flat Tyre you don't walk to town and buy a set of spark plugs.
If your stuck out in the bush with a flat Tyre you don't walk to town and buy a set of spark plugs.
I like that ypo ... but of course with what we are talking about .. we walked to town , bought a second hand tyre and wheel that once was A grade but had seen a few gutters and done a stack of K's. Did we really feel confident that it would be more than just a "get us out of immediate trouble" purchase? I think we should have looked at putting a new one on Laybuy for 2 or 3 years down the track... Trouble is I think they looked in our garage and saw about 5 or 6 tyres... and thought..surely one is worth putting on the car , surely one can stay inflated.
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Its not about whether thurlow turns out any good or not, its the principles behind the decision. It wont change my mind regardless of how either end up, its the reasoning behind the decision.
Id even concede thurlow was more chance of making it back then, as youve pointed out, big men are risky. I for one would take that risk because big men just dont come around very often and we desperately needed one. IMO you can always draft another thurlow, so take the chance on getting a good big man.
Stan The Caddy
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Of course we could. Since when has Wells shown a tendency to follow convention or not think outside of the square? Would you have thought that he would have traded the pick that we got for Bundy for Stanley at the time? I know that I didn't. Sure, there would have been an imbalance in our list but that can be fixed within the space of one off season and big guys generally hold their value better than what smalls do in any case.
I recently remember Wells speaking about succession planning and how it was generally based upon a 3 year period. If anything, this would have encouraged Wells to take Grundy knowing that at best Mac probably only had 3 years left in him by that stage of his career.
If Wells really wanted Grundy that badly he would have taken him over Thurlow. It's as simple as that.
catempire
Premium Platinum
The spark plugs are a great metaphor for Grundy here.If your stuck out in the bush with a flat Tyre you don't walk to town and buy a set of spark plugs.
catempire
Premium Platinum
Why would he want an unbalanced list though? Just because he makes unconventional selections - no one would argue he doesn't - it doesn't mean he shuns basic premises like list balance. Once we traded for McIntosh we had more than enough ruckmen on our list. Another would have been absurd.
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We you've kinda done it with this statement in bold.
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Yeah sorry, what I was trying to say is im not saying its a mistake for a reason as simple as grundy is better than thurlow or vice versa.
When ive said it was a mistake, people always say to me oh but thurlows great so your wrong, or how can it be massive mistake if we did alright out of it?
For me its a massive mistake because I strongly disagree with the logic in making the decision (just my personal opinion). I dont mind if mistakes are made in the draft if its for the right reasons or the logic appeared justifiable but in these circumstance I BELIEVE it was a mistake for the wrong reasons.
Either wells rated Simpson or he didnt rate Grundy. I personally always thought Simpson was a spud and I really liked Grundy, I thought we desperately needed a young ruckman for the future and for me the decision stood out like dogs balls.
Based on my own view it just strongly clashed with Wells decision, it is just my pov and Wells has done very very well but this time I dont agree with the decision.
Other mistakes such as possibly tenace or bray and many others I haven't had issue with because I rated most, maybe not as high and sometimes the player just doesnt develop as expected. I haven't always agreed with who weve taken but I can understand why we made that decision so its fine.
In this situation with grundy I do not agree with the premise of the decision, hence why I believe it was a huge mistake. It is just my personal summation of all the factors at that point in time, I personally could not justify taking thurlow over grundy and hence I dont agree. Its all just my view of a large number of factors (such as I believe we could pick up a thurlow type any time if we are that desperate).
Hence when people say its not a mistake thurlows fine, thats not my point, i always thought thurlow would be fine but I disagree with the reasoning behind why he was taken.
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My thoughts at the time.
Do you rate thurlow? Yes
Do you think he is an AFL player? Yes
Do we desperately need him? No (just MO)
Will we be able to get someone else to play this role? Yes
Do you rate Grundy? Yes
Will he be an AFL player? Yes
Do we desperately need him? Yes
Will we be able to get someone else? No
No worries if people disagree with each of these points, its all just opinion. Just get frustrated when people say "but thurlows okay" im not saying he isn't, I rated him, still think it was a mistake.
Do you rate thurlow? Yes
Do you think he is an AFL player? Yes
Do we desperately need him? No (just MO)
Will we be able to get someone else to play this role? Yes
Do you rate Grundy? Yes
Will he be an AFL player? Yes
Do we desperately need him? Yes
Will we be able to get someone else? No
No worries if people disagree with each of these points, its all just opinion. Just get frustrated when people say "but thurlows okay" im not saying he isn't, I rated him, still think it was a mistake.
Dangerwood is expressing his opinion in a logical way. What is wrong with that? I actually agree.
I think our issue over the last couple of years is that injury has hit us hard and having injury prone players on our list has not helped.
The stars have to align to get them on the park. It is not OK to have too many of these and this is an issue which particularly effected our ruck division!! Supporters are questioning this tactic.
A player like Smedts is highly rated by the club yet injures his shoulder with NO contact. I would have delisted him but the club has its logic which is not privy to us.
It does not mean we are not entitled to our opinions
I think our issue over the last couple of years is that injury has hit us hard and having injury prone players on our list has not helped.
The stars have to align to get them on the park. It is not OK to have too many of these and this is an issue which particularly effected our ruck division!! Supporters are questioning this tactic.
A player like Smedts is highly rated by the club yet injures his shoulder with NO contact. I would have delisted him but the club has its logic which is not privy to us.
It does not mean we are not entitled to our opinions
This is a post I enjoyed reading and I feel it puts your opinion in better light. I disagree with your original assertion of "worst ever" , its simplistic and imo wrong...yet in this post you build a better edifice for your opinion to stand on. I totally agree that all are entitled to their opinion, and more entitled to express it (within the guidelines of the board of course).
What I don't know , and I presume most others don't is where he/they rated Grundy and where he/they rated Thurlow , where at that time the team placed short term and Long term needs. Who knows how some recruitment mangers make their calls... bias on players , political consideration , commercial advantages.... Wells has never been a pack mentality type..he seem to be a contrarian more often than not , he will pick on his judgement and let the chip s fall where they may. I suspect he would have smiled and dipped his lid to Adelaide call of Doedee last year. Agree or not , the was a gutsy call.
What directions where Wells and team given pre draft that year. With Wells and his team ( I do think thats overlooked a bit that , he might make the final call but all picks and needs would be well discussed) may have been given free hand or were they told what the coaching felt they needed.
No doubt great big men a rarer commodity than mids/utes... good to ordinary's however are found easier and mids/utes form the foundation of any good list. Would we have won our flags without Ottens? Would we have won without Enright/Bartel/Corey/Kelly. To put it another way , we won them with West and Blake which I feel shows that if the group of medium players is good enough its possible to carry an average ruck. And because of the small numbers needed in each team , I guess I can see the logic of filling via trade if needed.
At this point in time , this has to be debatable ..its been years and plenty of list changes. Till we see Smith and the rest play , having Grundy would be a luxury rather critical. If I had one choice to add to the list we have for 2016 , it would be another quality mid.
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I see the Grundy debate comes down to how you graded our rucks at the time,I had already on our board written off Simpson as injury prone and West as an average 2nd ruck at best,there were plenty here who didn't agree at the time.So sure if you thought Simpson West McIntosh and to some extent Vardy would all hold up then no Grundy would be a sensible call.But if like me you thought Simpson was finished West was average and a 2nd ruck, Vardy was potential at best and again a second ruck and along with McIntosh who was a gamble then Grundy was a no brainier.
Stan The Caddy
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I think that there is always a tipping point where a certain player may be far and away more talented than the rest of the other potential selections that you simply have to take him, regardless of needs or list balance. IMO Wells didn't see Grundy as a player who was just too talented to let slip through but if he did, he wouldn't have hesitated in selecting him.
It's going to be interesting to follow the careers of both Grundy and Thurlow to see which player ends up the better selection.
catempire
Premium Platinum
Sounds like we are in furious agreement!
The comment that good half backer flankers are a dime a dozen just staggers me.
It was only a couple of years ago when a bunch of people here were suggesting we throw the kitchen sink at nick smith.
Who would we be playing off a flank this year if we didn't have Thurlow? Smedts? Give me a break.
It was only a couple of years ago when a bunch of people here were suggesting we throw the kitchen sink at nick smith.
Who would we be playing off a flank this year if we didn't have Thurlow? Smedts? Give me a break.
