Russia invades the Ukraine

[Zidane98]

Yes, they removed him after the events of EuroMaidan made it impossible for him to carry out his functions as President. The constitutional legality of that very vote remains unresolved. Look at this, from Washington mouthpiece Radio Free Europe no less;






They may not have launched a military offensive per se, but what they DID do was tantamount to a paramilitary operation. Pravyy Sektor militants DID attack riot police as well as aid in storming government buildings.

As for them being backed by 3rd parties - Ukraine is a pie, and there are a LOT of grubby fingerholes in it, from a few different hands.

Feel free to tell me to piss off, but you seem quite passionate about this. Is your family from that region?

I'll disclose my interest in all this too; I see the hand of the United States in all this. I neither like nor trust what rules in Washington, and history shows again and again what a duplicitous lot they are. I see a kind of parallel here to the 'contra' war in Nicaragua in the 1980's, framed as it was by the Monroe Doctrine of the United States which declared that their backyard was off limits to all other world powers. Backyard wars, fought over the spread and limitation of influence. The United States militarily occupied several Central American nations in the 20th century, instigating coups and propped up murderous dictators as they went in an absolute mirror image to what the Soviets did in 'their' backyard of Eastern Europe.

Neither side was right to do this.

Russia for their part are DEFINITELY no angels, and I find many of Putin's autocratic tendencies very worrying. Moscow seems no less duplicitous and two-faced than Washington D.C it seems. I look at what the United States does on the world stage though, how absolutely unchallenged that nation is militarily and diplomatically, and I see a very unbalanced world.

There must be a counterweight to the United States.

Fair enough question mate and to answer no I don't have family in Ukraine or are of Ukranian descent. I do have a colleague at work who is Australian born to Ukranian parents and has family in Kharkiv. Their view is they have seen Poland go leaps and bounds ahead after escaping the shackles of Russia and view Yanukovych as corrupt and not doing what is in the interests of the people. They want the same opportunities that was afforded to Poland and Yanukovych had agreed to go down that path and than turned his back on his own party. I think even the most ardent russianite won't defend Yanukovvyche's actions; he had a personal classic car collection and multiple luxury mansions on a salary of 80K euro per year - he was clearly corrupt in the extreme. The fact that he chose to run to russia proves that.

I also have a friend who I used to play soccer with who is now involved with the junior program at Melton Phoneix soccer club who lost a promising young player on flight MH 17. That's the main reason why I have taken a strong interest in the events which have unfolded.

I don't believe the US has any involvement other than providing financial aid for Ukraine once Russia cut of all funding to the country. I don't see a problem with that because Russia could have continued with their financial aid package but chose not to because Yanukovych was removed by his own party. Personally, I do agree that both sides have done wrong but the maidan protesters were doing it for the good of the country whereas the rebels in donetsk/lugansk only serve to promote the interests of Russia who from what I can see are interested in only using Ukraine as a political pawn for their own good. Further to that I do believe Russia still has legitimate interests in the Ukraine but are not going about it in a fair manner. I certainly don't see this as a US vs Russia political battle I see it as a Ukraine vs Russia political and cultural battle because throughout history Russia has always considered Ukranians to not be a different culture and/or nation.

As for the counterweight to US theory I believe the US will continue to progressively weaken and will eventually be replaced by China as the world's most powerful nation.

 

[Zidane98]

Show on ABC about the war in East Ukraine on now.

 

[awaremind]

No problems with you asking mate. I myself don't have family in the region and/or country. I do have a good friend who has family in Kharkiv. Their view is they want the same opportunities that Poland has which has improved its living standard markedly since escaping Russian influence. I also know a soccer player who I formerly played with who is now involved in the juinior soccer program at Sunbury soccer club who lost a promising junior player on flight MH17. I've looked at the conflict from all sides believe me and I do agree that the USA does many things that are not right but I do not see them as being behind the revolution in Ukraine.

I also can see Russia does have legitimate interests in Ukraine but I do think they are not going about it in the right way. They can remain a partner


Fair enough question mate and to answer no I don't have family in Ukraine or are of Ukranian descent. I do have a colleague at work who is Australian born to Ukranian parents and has family in Kharkiv. Their view is they have seen Poland go leaps and bounds ahead after escaping the shackles of Russia and view Yanukovych as corrupt and not doing what is in the interests of the people. They want the same opportunities that was afforded to Poland and Yanukovych had agreed to go down that path and than turned his back on his own party. I think even the most ardent russianite won't defend Yanukovvyche's actions; he had a personal classic car collection and multiple luxury mansions on a salary of 80K euro per year - he was clearly corrupt in the extreme. The fact that he chose to run to russia proves that.

I also have a friend who I used to play soccer with who is now involved with the junior program at Melton Phoneix soccer club who lost a promising young player on flight MH 17. That's the main reason why I have taken a strong interest in the events which have unfolded.

I don't believe the US has any involvement other than providing financial aid for Ukraine once Russia cut of all funding to the country. I don't see a problem with that because Russia could have continued with their financial aid package but chose not to because Yanukovych was removed by his own party. Personally, I do agree that both sides have done wrong but the maidan protesters were doing it for the good of the country whereas the rebels in donetsk/lugansk only serve to promote the interests of Russia who from what I can see are interested in only using Ukraine as a political pawn for their own good. Further to that I do believe Russia still has legitimate interests in the Ukraine but are not going about it in a fair manner. I certainly don't see this as a US vs Russia political battle I see it as a Ukraine vs Russia political and cultural battle because throughout history Russia has always considered Ukranians to not be a different culture and/or nation.

As for the counterweight to US theory I believe the US will continue to progressively weaken and will eventually be replaced by China as the world's most powerful nation.

Best post by you so far.
Still seems a bit naive though, on the part of Ukrainians that think the nation will automatically get less corrupt by facing West rather than East, or that their lot will get better. Intelligent leadership is what strengthens a nation. Poland would have improved its lot due to better management and accountability. Russian influence may be malignant but the punitive operation played into the Kremlin's hands. Ukrainians are in a unique position geographically and they have to face both ways, and they will have opportunities to benefit from both sides.
They can't swap places with Mexico on the map no matter how much they desire that.
Their violent brand of Nationalism was on display in the Euro championships a couple of years ago, its not something to be proud of or encourage, it makes supporting them in the west less palatable, and strengthens the similar movements in Russia.

 

[Zidane98]

Was a good show on ABC if anyone watched it. The aussie journalist travelled with a family who escaped the Lugansk area and fled to Khakiv. Most of the family were against the Russians but the mother only was pro russian which I thought was interesting. Also told the story of a family who had their house destroyed in an offensive by the Ukranians to drive the rebels out of the area which they succeeded. Their house is now in ruins and nobody has helped them yet which I thought was unfair.

 

[corbomite]

Anyone that disagreed with Yanukovych could have voted him out. And how can you compare the Gillard/Rudd debacle to the far more violent overthrow of an elected leader like we saw in EuroMaidan? Sure, the knives were out in the Labor caucus and it ended up arse-raping the ALP in its entirety but comparing it to the Ukraine?

Apples and oranges, mate.

No, it's called an analogy, douche.

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

No, it's called an analogy, douche.

But was it a good one?

 

[corbomite]

Haha good to see the Putin groupies are alive and well here. Hope he's chucking you a few roubles for your efforts.
The least he can do to compensate the ignoramuses who fall prey to his well-funded propaganda.

Let me say this slowwlllyyy and simply:
Putin is an expansionist ****.
Yanokovich was his puppet .. and a well-paid one at that. Have you seen his dacha?
Ukrainians don't like this, nor the puppet master. The people speak and oust Yanukovich.
Putin has a conniption and spits his kasha all over the floor, spluttering, "You can't remove my bitch!"
Dummy spit subsided, he invades Crimea in chest-beating retribution, after holding a fake election ....
... since when can one country hold an election in another country? Oh well.
(eg. Can New Zealand point some tanks at NSW and hold an election to claim it on the pretext of protecting its citizens living there?
Lots of NZ speakers in Sydney y'know. Absurd? Well, it's the same thing)

Putin muses that Crimea was like cutting through butter - heck, eastern Ukraine, here I come.
Seeing Ukrainians and Russians live peacefully there - everyone speaks Russian, all signage Russian, just a little Russia in reality - he sends in troops/thugs/actors/anyone and calls them separatists and/or rebels, to create conflict where there is none.
Vlad doesn't worry 'cause he's seen Wag the Dog and knows that anything can be spun.

A couple of Vlad's knuckle-dragging boiz, most likely drunk, shoot down a civilian plane. Oops.
An unconscionable act; a public outcry, the tragedy of children who never had a chance, the relatives whose lives have been destroyed.
Thanks to Putin.
But he doesn't worry because he knows anything can be spun.
Ukrainians are blamed, Americans are blamed .. maybe even Mick Malthouse.
Anyone but Caligula himself. Those who want to be apologists for him don't understand the nature of the beast. He won't stop.
Hasn't history taught you anything? (non-googled, I mean)

To even question why Ukraine wants to forge closer ties to the West is ludicrous. It's like saying 'what has the West ever done for us?'
With irony. Moreover, what has Mother Russia .. Tsars, Bolsheviks .. done for them? Literally. Um, that would be murder and grief.
The reason they call Ukraine 'the breadbasket of Europe,' the richness of the soil, the resources - maybe due to the millions of tears shed over the brutality and cruelty endured by these people?

It's also a non sequitur to, after such an unprovoked and blatant invasion of a sovereign country, to bang on about 'ooh what about what America has done?'
Irrelevant here and not necessarily defending, but if you must know:
a. the freedom to fund your horse-ridin' Russian bf's spin
b. the computers you slavishly hunch over, while dribbling Maccas over the blow-up

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

Wow. I have to say you've typed all that out with real feeling. I can't agree with many of your points, though. The issue of Crimea's status has been bubbling on a hotplate since the breakup of the Soviet Union. Scope this out, from 1992;

Russia Votes to Void Cession of Crimea to Ukraine
http://www.nytimes.com/1992/05/22/world/russia-votes-to-void-cession-of-crimea-to-ukraine.html

The Russian Parliament voted today to declare the 1954 grant of Crimea to Ukraine unconstitutional and void, adding that the issue should be resolved through negotiations.

The resolution, which passed 136 to 18, with 20 abstentions, in effect annulled the decision by Nikita S. Khrushchev, the Soviet leader at the time, to give the strategic peninsula to Ukraine as a "gift" marking the 300th anniversary of Russian-Ukrainian union.

At the same time, the Parliament noted that agreements of recent months rejected any territorial claims between Russia and Ukraine, and therefore declared that the Crimea's status should be settled through negotiations between Russia and Ukraine "with the participation of representative bodies of the Crimea on the basis of the will exercised by its people."

The vote was announced only after the Ukrainian Parliament recessed for the day. But the resolution was bound to provoke a new furore in Kiev and add to the squabbling between Russia and Ukraine. The fate of Crimea, has become the major bone of contention between the neighbouring republics.

While the Russian Parliament was debating in Moscow, the Crimean Parliament voted in Simferopol to roll back its conditional declaration of independence and to suspend preparations for a referendum until June 10.

At the same time, the Crimean legislature asked the Ukrainian Parliament to suspend laws already adopted on the status of Crimea and to renegotiate a division of authority between the Ukrainian and Crimean authorities on the peninsula.

The Crimean Parliament's moves followed a thundering condemnation of the peninsula's stab at independence by the Ukrainian Parliament, which gave the Crimeans until May 20 to suspend their declarations. The Crimean Parliament denied it was meeting any ultimatum, which in any case it missed by a day, but there was little doubt that Kiev's anger played a role in today's vote.

The manoeuvres on all sides appeared carefully calculated to stop short of direct confrontations. But the emotional levels of the debates over the last month in Simferopol, Kiev and Moscow made clear that the fate of Crimea remained among the most explosive unresolved issues plaguing the former Soviet states.

The Russian Parliament's reference to the "will exercised by the people" was a clear reference to the referendum, which is still tentatively scheduled for Aug. 2. The referendum was called through a petition prepared by the Russian-leaning Crimean Republican Movement, whose leaders may not be prepared to cancel it.

Since Crimea first declared its independence, President Leonid M. Kravchuk of Ukraine has warned on several occasions that he would not allow Crimea to secede from Ukraine, and he has urged the Crimean leaders not go through with the referendum.

Ukraine has argued that any tampering with republic borders as they were when the Soviet Union dissolved would lead to chaos and more violence. Already in several regions, notably in the Caucasus and Moldova, territorial disputes have led to violence.

To head off secessionist sentiments in Crimea, Ukraine upgraded the peninsula to an "autonomous republic" within Ukraine last year. But Crimean militants argued that this only solidified Kiev's control over the peninsula.

Russia kept to a long-term lease on a naval base at Sebastapol as headquarters for its Black Sea fleet, and Russian soldiers were already based there when the Crimean people voted to join Russia via referendum. They were already there - they did not invade.

As for Eastern Ukraine, the people there refused to acknowledge the overthrow of the previous government. In a carbon copy of what the EuroMaidan protestors did in Kiev, they occupied various regional government buildings in protest. The 'caretaker' government that took control in Kiev sent National Guard units - not regular Ukrainian Army forces - to the Eastern oblasts to assert Kiev's control over the area. Violence ensued. Guard units were repulsed. The insurgency was born.

Kiev has continued to act as the aggressor ever since. Those in the East are defending their homes and livelihoods.

The shoot-down of MH17 was a terrible tragedy. But what good can come of civilian airliners maintaining flight paths over active war zones? The immediate reaction from both the secessionist forces and Russia itself were dead wrong as well - they should have at least acknowledged the mistake. I mean, look at the chaos resulting from the Ukraine's accidental shoot-down of a Russian airliner in 2001;

Israel accuses Ukraine of hiding missile strike that destroyed jet
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...hiding-missile-strike-that-destroyed-jet.html
12:01AM BST 07 Oct 2001

A DIPLOMATIC row broke out last night after senior Israeli government officials accused Ukraine of hampering the investigation into the cause of last week's Russian airliner crash that killed 78 people.

The Israelis suspect the authorities in Kiev of covering up evidence that the Tu-154, which crashed into the Black Sea, was struck by a stray surface-to-air missile fired during a military exercise. They privately accused Ukraine yesterday of deliberately preventing an air investigation team from leaving Israel within hours of the crash, despite earlier guarantees of full co-operation...

and after coming clean

Ukraine admits it shot down Russian airliner
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...ine-admits-it-shot-down-Russian-airliner.html
12:01AM BST 13 Oct 2001
Ukraine finally admitted yesterday that its military shot down a Russian airliner that crashed into the Black Sea last week, killing all 78 passengers and crew.

Evhen Marchuk, the chairman of Ukraine's security council, conceded that the plane had probably been brought down by "an accidental hit from an S-200 rocket fired during exercises".

Russian investigators believe a missile exploded near the plane, spraying it with shrapnel. Russian and Israeli scientists found metal pellets in the victims and in the fuselage...

the Ukrainian defence minister resigned and the families of each victim got around US$200,000 in compensation. I believe there should be an unfettered and unbiased investigation into MH-17. Whichever side shot it down should indeed own up to it and pay compensation.

As to the depth of feeling about Russia's intent you won't get any arguments from me about the Soviet past. Any notion of socialism as a benefit to humanity went out the window under Comrade Stalin's authoritarian jackboot. Ambition came first, and his people suffered enormously for it.

I recognise this and understand the mistrust with which many in Eastern Europe hold towards Moscow. As far as Ukraine goes for the future though, I don't believe it should kowtow to EITHER power. Not Washington. Not Moscow. It should remain on friendly terms with both while alienating neither its neighbours nor ethno-political divides amongst its own people.

No nation should bend as another's whore.

 

[Zidane98]

Those fighting in the east aren't defending the livelihood of the people there. They are a bunch of hired mercenaries and/or Russian soldiers trying to maintain Russia's stranglehold on Ukraine.

 

[Zidane98]

Wow. I have to say you've typed all that out with real feeling. I can't agree with many of your points, though. The issue of Crimea's status has been bubbling on a hotplate since the breakup of the Soviet Union. Scope this out, from 1992;



Russia kept to a long-term lease on a naval base at Sebastapol as headquarters for its Black Sea fleet, and Russian soldiers were already based there when the Crimean people voted to join Russia via referendum. They were already there - they did not invade.

As for Eastern Ukraine, the people there refused to acknowledge the overthrow of the previous government. In a carbon copy of what the EuroMaidan protestors did in Kiev, they occupied various regional government buildings in protest. The 'caretaker' government that took control in Kiev sent National Guard units - not regular Ukrainian Army forces - to the Eastern oblasts to assert Kiev's control over the area. Violence ensued. Guard units were repulsed. The insurgency was born.

Kiev has continued to act as the aggressor ever since. Those in the East are defending their homes and livelihoods.

The shoot-down of MH17 was a terrible tragedy. But what good can come of civilian airliners maintaining flight paths over active war zones? The immediate reaction from both the secessionist forces and Russia itself were dead wrong as well - they should have at least acknowledged the mistake. I mean, look at the chaos resulting from the Ukraine's accidental shoot-down of a Russian airliner in 2001;



and after coming clean



the Ukrainian defence minister resigned and the families of each victim got around US$200,000 in compensation. I believe there should be an unfettered and unbiased investigation into MH-17. Whichever side shot it down should indeed own up to it and pay compensation.

As to the depth of feeling about Russia's intent you won't get any arguments from me about the Soviet past. Any notion of socialism as a benefit to humanity went out the window under Comrade Stalin's authoritarian jackboot. Ambition came first, and his people suffered enormously for it.

I recognise this and understand the mistrust with which many in Eastern Europe hold towards Moscow. As far as Ukraine goes for the future though, I don't believe it should kowtow to EITHER power. Not Washington. Not Moscow. It should remain on friendly terms with both while alienating neither its neighbours nor ethno-political divides amongst its own people.

No nation should bend as another's whore.

Interesting to note that it was US intelligence that alerted Russia of the errant missile from Ukranian military exercises off Crimea. They were targeting drones and one missile destroyed the drone but continued on and destroyed the Siberian airlines flight. Putin even initially dismissed the US intelligence and stated that the S200 missile shouldn't have been able to destroy the soviet made plane but it was eventually found that the friend or foe identity system failed and destroyed the aircraft.

 

[The Coup]

Those fighting in the east aren't defending the livelihood of the people there. They are a bunch of hired mercenaries and/or Russian soldiers trying to maintain Russia's stranglehold on Ukraine.

This wouldn't work for this long.

AQ tried that in Baghdad and the people invariably turn on you if they think the other mob can give them a better deal. Its really easy to break up a "fake" grassroots militia that doesn't have any real local support.

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

Interesting editorial from the U.K Telegraph about the provocation of Russia.

Vladimir Putin’s 'unacceptable’ action in Ukraine was predictable and provoked
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...-in-Ukraine-was-predictable-and-provoked.html

...It cannot be said often enough that what triggered the crisis was not Mr Putin’s desire to restore the boundaries of the Soviet Union, but the ludicrously misguided ambition of the West to see Ukraine absorbed into the EU and NATO. There was never any way that either Mr Putin or all those Russian speakers in eastern Ukraine and Crimea were going to take kindly to seeing the country which was the cradle of Russian identity become part of a Western power bloc.

Russia would be even less happy to see the only warm-water ports for its navy taken over by a military alliance that had been set up to counter Russia in the first place.

When 96 per cent of Crimeans democratically voted in March to join Russia, this was not, as Western politicians now tell us, because Mr Putin wanted to “annexe” their country. It was because the 82 per cent of them who speak Russian as their main language wanted to rejoin a country Crimea had been part of for two centuries.

Yet, at the very same time, the democratically elected government of Ukraine was being toppled by mobs of demonstrators in the streets of Kiev, many of whom were being paid from Brussels funds to shout “Europe, Europe” at Baroness Ashton, as she urged them to sign that “association agreement” which was the last step but one to Ukraine becoming a full member state of the EU. That is why the EU, with America’s backing, has been led by its own vainglorious delusions into the mess we see today.

The NATO leaders know there is little they can usefully do about it.

For months they have been talking about those “sanctions”, while being only too uncomfortably aware that the EU depends on Russia for 30 per cent of the gas it needs to keep its cookers working and its lights on. Even when President Hollande of France was urging David Cameron all those months ago to slam the doors of the City of London on the Russian bankers and oligarchs who have £27billion invested in the UK, we knew that Britain had £46billion invested in Russia.

So our leaders sat round the table in that ghastly concrete hotel in Wales, prattling about ever more sanctions. They send their little “battle groups” to march round in circles in Poland. They huff and they puff about what is “unacceptable”. But they know they dare not risk trying to blow the house down.

Meanwhile, Mr Putin and the Russians of Ukraine’s industrial heartland do exactly what could have been predicted, as they fight to establish a semi-autonomous “buffer state” between Russia and the West...

 

[The Coup]

corbomite keeps saying we're all brainwashed, then regurgitating all the same criticisms we all have of Putin just in a substantially more emotive manner.

I wonder if he's actually reading posts or not.

 

[Zidane98]

This wouldn't work for this long.

AQ tried that in Baghdad and the people invariably turn on you if they think the other mob can give them a better deal. Its really easy to break up a "fake" grassroots militia that doesn't have any real local support.

Difference is they are backed by Russia who have unfettered access to the region. Many if the residents of the area live in fear of the rebels. It is a Russian supported military uprising. It certainly isn't the everyday people of East Ukraine that are fighting for their livelihood.

 

[Zidane98]

Haha Russia talking about resurrecting its aviation industry:

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/busin...senger-plane-a-new-lease-of-life-/506706.html

That'll be a good laugh. Most of the aircraft they produce are rubbish and pretty much only used in Russian client states these days. All of the Russian airlines buy/operate a vast majority of western aircraft.

Seems as Vlad has been told that if he doesn't pull his head in Boeing/Airbus are going to pull support for their airline industry. Iran still suffers from similar sanctions. Russia is dependent on aviation because of its vast size so Vlad will have to think of something quick if he doesn't want to cripple the nation.

 

[The Coup]

Difference is they are backed by Russia who have unfettered access to the region. Many if the residents of the area live in fear of the rebels. It is a Russian supported military uprising. It certainly isn't the everyday people of East Ukraine that are fighting for their livelihood.

I know it is Russian supported. You'd be insane to think any uprising in Eastern Ukraine wouldn't be massively supported by Russia and by pro-Russian people in the region.

Ukrainian people are secondary here, this is all about Russia.

 

[Sydney Bloods]

That's bullshit. If I don't like what Tony Abbott is doing I have no right to launch a military style takeover of the region with like minded individuals. We'd truly have anarchy if we give in to terrorists like the rebels.

you realise thats how the previous government in the ukraine got overthrown.
In fact its how many countries we have today were formed.
One mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter.

hell the short lived Eureka Rebellion lead directly to the Passing of the electoral act of 1856, Precisely because along with other Failed Rebellions across australia, It Posed a risk that the government of the time might be violently overthrown.

Among other things it guaranteed the right of all (white) men to vote and allowed for them to vote via secret ballot. It was a game changer that pathed the way for Australia to become a nation and altered the Face of democracy around the world. In fact when it was introduced into the US the legislation was called "the Australian Ballot".

the idea that violently overthrowing a government isn't a "done thing" is an entirely 20th century idea.
Now we all sit around and bitch about how nothing get's done.

 

[Moo]

you realise thats how the previous government in the ukraine got overthrown.

I'd say 95% of the Australian public is clueless to this.

Our media is such a disgrace, rather than pick a side ...they should present the facts.

 

[Sydney Bloods]

I'd say 95% of the Australian public is clueless to this.

Our media is such a disgrace, rather than pick a side ...they should present the facts.

But they did present the fact's this is directly where i got my information from.
The issue is that those that speak the loudest have their own agendas and purposely mislead people to set an agenda.

For example the previous prime minister being horribly corrupt, rigging election's, bribery, blatantly arresting and beating the s**t out of political opponents, arresting people who spoke out against his government, shutting independent news outlets and seizing private businesses and placing them in hands of political allies are all over looked, the same as nobody mentions the fact that russia magically had "supply" issues to western europe in the lead up to Yanukovych's supposedly "legit" election (after being found Guilty of trying not only to rig an election but threaten and BASH people who openly opposed him............ not once, BUT TWICE)

 

[awaremind]

But they did present the fact's this is directly where i got my information from.
The issue is that those that speak the loudest have their own agendas and purposely mislead people to set an agenda.

For example the previous prime minister being horribly corrupt, rigging election's, bribery, blatantly arresting and beating the s**t out of political opponents, arresting people who spoke out against his government, shutting independent news outlets and seizing private businesses and placing them in hands of political allies are all over looked, the same as nobody mentions the fact that russia magically had "supply" issues to western europe in the lead up to Yanukovych's supposedly "legit" election (after being found Guilty of trying not only to rig an election but threaten and BASH people who openly opposed him............ not once, BUT TWICE)

Apparently that is how politics works in Ukraine. Some of the people who have power now are doing pretty much what you described, the put out videos of themselves doing the same sort of things, as in the threatening and bashing not to mention relentless shelling of cities for months on end.

 

[Sydney Bloods]

Apparently that is how politics works in Ukraine. Some of the people who have power now are doing pretty much what you described, the put out videos of themselves doing the same sort of things, as in the threatening and bashing not to mention relentless shelling of cities for months on end.

it's not exactly best to compare an unstable government in the middle of a civil war to Yanukovych. as its his actions that have caused all of this.

 

[The Coup]

you realise thats how the previous government in the ukraine got overthrown.
In fact its how many countries we have today were formed.
One mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter.

hell the short lived Eureka Rebellion lead directly to the Passing of the electoral act of 1856, Precisely because along with other Failed Rebellions across australia, It Posed a risk that the government of the time might be violently overthrown.

Among other things it guaranteed the right of all (white) men to vote and allowed for them to vote via secret ballot. It was a game changer that pathed the way for Australia to become a nation and altered the Face of democracy around the world. In fact when it was introduced into the US the legislation was called "the Australian Ballot".

the idea that violently overthrowing a government isn't a "done thing" is an entirely 20th century idea.
Now we all sit around and bitch about how nothing get's done.

Not all of us, some of us are acutely aware that not only does mass civil disobedience does work, but its the only thing that works.

 

[Zidane98]

There has been shelling of rebel forces over the last couple of months. This is in retaliation to the unwarranted violent military insurgency sponsored by Russia. Since the separatists put down their weapons there has been no shelling whatsover.

 

[awaremind]

There has been shelling of rebel forces over the last couple of months. This is in retaliation to the unwarranted violent military insurgency sponsored by Russia. Since the separatists put down their weapons there has been no shelling whatsover.

Not true apparently the volunteer corps have continued shelling Donetsk despite the "ceasefire".

 

[awaremind]

it's not exactly best to compare an unstable government in the middle of a civil war to Yanukovych. as its his actions that have caused all of this.

Sounds a bit oversimplified to me. Good luck to Poroshenko, he is going to need it. Enemies on both sides if he makes the concessions he needs to to ensure lasting peace.