News Shane Rogers has quit Carlton

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I was more replying in the context that Ratten as the one responsible for building and developing the list should have questioned things quicker.

Thank god Silvagni is responsible for all of that now and Bolton can just coach.

Completely agree, Wasn't much system about how we brought in players, wasn't much quality about it either. Ratten lucked out with the lack of quality staff around him. He really didn't have the training under him or experience, fair to say he would now you would think.

We signed a coach with no process behind it at all who hadn't really had the experience to gain the qualifications. We failed to have quality people in list management and recruitment roles. We had a load of early picks which anyone can work with which made it appear we were going alright because we were improving. However we used some of those picks on good ordinary players instead of much better options. We rarely used picks well out of the first round. Some years we took nothing from the national draft. Luckily we found some players in the rookie draft along the way. Once we got up the ladder a bit the picks got lower and we were found out badly. We made some minor changes to recruitment but the damage was already well and truly done. We sold our soul for Judd who carried us for years and years but we lost some early picks and a gun key forward and created a team that relied heavily on individuals. We were found out with a list that had a good top, thin midsection and no bottom. It's no wonder things didn't work out for us. It's a wonder we were able to half build a side that was able to be half good to be honest.

You ask, why wasn't Hughes outed quicker, questions were being asked on here years before he was moved on. Plenty of posters could see it. Some coaches would have seen that the players being brought in were no good long before we did. Was it the coach who wasn't a great judge of footballers and took too long to see that the recruiting was stuffed and took too long to see that many of those players were no good? We certainly gave some pretty average footballers too long of an opportunity on our list.

So different to last time it's not funny. We seem to have learnt a bit which is good. We've gone through a thorough process to hire a coach with the right credentials and experience and we've put experienced people with him. We've hired a highly rated list manager who from what I have heard puts in a lot of effort into his job. We have a plan on how we want to build, we've been tactical at trade week. We've potentially had one of the best drafts in many many years. We seem to have a good system in place that has come about from having a good system in place which is a refreshing change from no system in place.

Best thing with the roles being more segregated now with a list manager, recruiter, coach, fitness staff etc is that when things go wrong a review will be able to find who hasn't been performing. It also provides people an opportunity to be more focused and put more time in different areas. It's a good change, I'm glad we're going down this path. I think SOS would have been very quick to question the things Hughes was doing, he's more ruthless and appears he has a good eye for talent/players.
 
Who is Shane Rogers??!!!!
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O, sorry, I misheard Dodgers Rogers.
 
You ask, why wasn't Hughes outed quicker, questions were being asked on here years before he was moved on. Plenty of posters could see it. Some coaches would have seen that the players being brought in were no good long before we did. Was it the coach who wasn't a great judge of footballers and took too long to see that the recruiting was stuffed and took too long to see that many of those players were no good? We certainly gave some pretty average footballers too long of an opportunity on our list.

No, I wasn't asking why Hughes wasn't outed quicker. I was responding to the notion that Ratten's list was stuffed and he/they should have reacted quicker. We don't know what was going on behind the scenes and we don't know how much weight Ratten carried as far as the recruiting staff were concerned. Club wise, we know he was demoted in 2012. Maybe Ratten was complaining for some time that the recruiting wasn't working and that was the eventual outcome, maybe he was content, maybe he was complicit?

With no list manager in place, aside from Hughes himself and maybe his assistants (did Rogers try to get through to him?), then a lot of responsibility comes back to the Football Managers in Icke and then McKay.
 

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The problem is the strength and the shortcomings you've listed didn't happen during his time with us. That was all information we knew when we bent over backwards to give him a 700k a year (reportedly) contract.
That's why the decision doesn't make sense to me.
By the way, if I read your post in isolation, you could easily be describing Dennis Armfield, but WITH pace. Is Dennis on 700?
Forget the 700k fairy tale. He is not getting that much & never will. This is the sort of rubbish the footy media put out there to a constituency that won't question what they are told. They wanted people to believe Thomas was getting that match so that if he didn't win the Brownlow, club B & F & AA selection every season at Carlton that it could only ever be seen as a failed deal (even last year the media were still printing articles questioning who won the Judd trade).

The recruitment of Thomas was just another one of those big name signings, following in the footsteps of Judd (a good decision), Warnock & McLean which the club thought would be all that was needed to ensure our competitiveness. The failure to properly invest in our Football Department until recently, demonstrated that the club had failed to observe how Geelong, Hawthorn & to an extent the Swans had achieved their success.

In the scheme of things though, the recruitment of Thomas pales into insignificance when compared to other decisions made by the club over the last 20 years (I'm not just talking recruiting decisions).
 
Forget the 700k fairy tale. He is not getting that much & never will. This is the sort of rubbish the footy media put out there to a constituency that won't question what they are told. They wanted people to believe Thomas was getting that match so that if he didn't win the Brownlow, club B & F & AA selection every season at Carlton that it could only ever be seen as a failed deal (even last year the media were still printing articles questioning who won the Judd trade).

The recruitment of Thomas was just another one of those big name signings, following in the footsteps of Judd (a good decision), Warnock & McLean which the club thought would be all that was needed to ensure our competitiveness. The failure to properly invest in our Football Department until recently, demonstrated that the club had failed to observe how Geelong, Hawthorn & to an extent the Swans had achieved their success.

In the scheme of things though, the recruitment of Thomas pales into insignificance when compared to other decisions made by the club over the last 20 years (I'm not just talking recruiting decisions).

In fairness to the club, we didn't have the money to invest into our Football Department. Then somewhat ironically, as soon as we do invest in it the AFL implement a tax for doing so.
 
I am not sure i am on the same page here Shan. Your statement that he can play seems at variance with his last two years here and his last year at Collingwood. While he was a player five years ago not sure it follows he still is.
Too simplistic to sum it up like that IMHO. He wasn't expected to be playing much at all in the first season as a Blue and did OK considering the lack of fitness. Last year was pretty much a total write-off through injury. You can't say off that data set that he can't play. Judge this year's efforts for a true indication of whether he is past it.
 
In fairness to the club, we didn't have the money to invest into our Football Department. Then somewhat ironically, as soon as we do invest in it the AFL implement a tax for doing so.

The club and the people running it have for a long time thought we were owed success and it will just cone in due course because we're Carlton and they're not.

This arrogance has clouded sense and more than any money, is why we are where we are.
 
Forget the 700k fairy tale. He is not getting that much & never will. This is the sort of rubbish the footy media put out there to a constituency that won't question what they are told. They wanted people to believe Thomas was getting that match so that if he didn't win the Brownlow, club B & F & AA selection every season at Carlton that it could only ever be seen as a failed deal (even last year the media were still printing articles questioning who won the Judd trade).

The recruitment of Thomas was just another one of those big name signings, following in the footsteps of Judd (a good decision), Warnock & McLean which the club thought would be all that was needed to ensure our competitiveness. The failure to properly invest in our Football Department until recently, demonstrated that the club had failed to observe how Geelong, Hawthorn & to an extent the Swans had achieved their success.

In the scheme of things though, the recruitment of Thomas pales into insignificance when compared to other decisions made by the club over the last 20 years (I'm not just talking recruiting decisions).
Ok, you're definitely right, I would have no idea what Daisy gets paid. That's why I always add (reportedly) when I bring it up.
I do know this, if it's anything over 200k, it's paying overs and was a terrible decision.
Daisy's best was years behind him, so we weren't buying potential. His form at the time was non existent so we weren't blinded by the stats. We had no competition for his signature. His own club was "encouraging" him to move on with the offer of a substantial pay cut. He wasn't a 20 year old gun that would develop at our club. His pace, leap, kicking, X factor had all deserted him. Even Carltons history of messiah chasing doesn't fit.

WHAT???? What on earth was the attraction? Why were we so desperate to sign Daisy? If someone can answer me that, I'll shut up!
 
The club and the people running it have for a long time thought we were owed success and it will just cone in due course because we're Carlton and they're not.

This arrogance has clouded sense and more than any money, is why we are where we are.

That's nice. Has nothing to do with what I said but nice nonetheless.

Point was we have lacked the money to pour into our football department and now that we are, we are being taxed for it. Arrogance or otherwise, we were flat broke for quite a while and still carry a lot of debt.
 
That's what I keep saying Neese, but apparently that's not how it works. Or so I keep getting told. Not only did Mick want him, he made sure he got a very nice retirement fund.

It is how it works. However I will suggest that Mick and Swann were building this mini dynasty. Daisy, Buttifant, and the huge play for Cloke. So glad that one didn't come off.
 

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oh god I forgot about that

Funny thing is that the heat around that one started about June/July 2012 when Ratten was under a lot of pressure and by the time Mick was appointed, he was chasing Cloke in earnest with reports he wanted to land a big fish. Makes me wonder if this was part of the reason Mick was appointed or more probable his hiring had already been decided that far out.
 
Who didnt expect him to play much in the first year? If that was the club's view it is an indictment on those who signed off on the deal. Rediculous to pay 700k (or there abouts) for a player to sit on the sideline for 12 months.
 
Funny thing is that the heat around that one started about June/July 2012 when Ratten was under a lot of pressure and by the time Mick was appointed, he was chasing Cloke in earnest with reports he wanted to land a big fish. Makes me wonder if this was part of the reason Mick was appointed or more probable his hiring had already been decided that far out.
Being a fan of the "quick fix" and/or Messiahs (I'm learning to be more patient and measured) I would've been on board with getting Cloke, even on big dollars. But Daisy had nothing to offer on either front.
 
That's nice. Has nothing to do with what I said but nice nonetheless.

Point was we have lacked the money to pour into our football department and now that we are, we are being taxed for it. Arrogance or otherwise, we were flat broke for quite a while and still carry a lot of debt.

Any time we use money as an excuse for anything that the CFC have set awry, should be highlighted.

That's half the issue, thinking that money will make all right and not careful planning, long term sustainability and getting a 21st century culture in place at the club, as other clubs saw fit to do and have profited greatly, on and off the field.........but we're still talking about how coach A or recruiter B have done us wrong. It would be funny if it wasn't so sad.
 
Any time we use money as an excuse for anything that the CFC have set awry, should be highlighted.

That's half the issue, thinking that money will make all right and not careful planning, long term sustainability and getting a 21st century culture in place at the club, as other clubs saw fit to do and have profited greatly, on and off the field.........but we're still talking about how coach A or recruiter B have done us wrong. It would be funny if it wasn't so sad.

Do a little bit of lateral thinking Harks. It takes nous AND money to implement these things. It may have been attitude that got us into trouble at the turn of the century, but there is ZERO doubt that our financial woes contributed to make it difficult to find our way out. In terms of facilities back in the day, in terms of hiring the best people and the right amount of people, in terms of attracting talent, we have absolutely found it tougher to afford what we needed to move forward.

You know, a little from column A, a little from column B is not such a bad compromise. Yes we needed to plan, needed long term sustainability but the old adage that you need to spend money to make money still holds true in many situations.
 
Do a little bit of lateral thinking Harks. It takes nous AND money to implement these things. It may have been attitude that got us into trouble at the turn of the century, but there is ZERO doubt that our financial woes contributed to make it difficult to find our way out. In terms of facilities back in the day, in terms of hiring the best people and the right amount of people, in terms of attracting talent, we have absolutely found it tougher to afford what we needed to move forward.

You know, a little from column A, a little from column B is not such a bad compromise. Yes we needed to plan, needed long term sustainability but the old adage that you need to spend money to make money still holds true in many situations.

Lateral thinking back at you: Mate, the clubs arrogance has taken us to where we are and we made good through a large part of the 20th century and weren't prepared for the new era, We still thought we knew better by paying players under the table and getting caught with our pants down. Instead of forging ahead like a good operation we thought we were just too clever and that we invincible but now we're playing, 'sorry me'

Maybe we have finally turned the corner but we can look back through the past 15 years to see just how well our 'culture' supported us.
Have a listen to Kernahan's speech or read our strategic planning documents that had us winning 2 Premierships by what was it? 2015? :)

What you seem to ignore (or choose to ignore) is that our 'culture' has got us here and not for some moment in time where we didn't have enough pennies to rub together. We didn't business very well at all, did we?
 

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