Shoenmakers

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would love to see our off season develop roughy into that Key defender we still need. schoey would be better suited as a lead up forward. even if we do draft Pederson as a ready made chb, i shoey is a long term forward. roughie did kick 80 in 08 though


Man I am glad I am a couch expert rather than the one actually in charge of all this. So many options and so many of us ready to either offer our views or shoot em down if they get it wrong
 

illnino

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@ordivician

You don't need statistics or reference points to judge a player's performance.

Not solely, no, but it sure is a good indicator in most circumstances

Sorry I can't reference back to his Essendon game, or his game against Collingwood last year because I can't recall him doing anything in that game that was worth bringing the roof down from Ethihad Stadium.

Name me a CHB who has played 10 odd games and 'brought the roof down from etihad'?

You could argue that Franklin's season this year has been almost as good as his 2008 season but to suggest that his been as good this season as he was in 2008 would be laughable.

A touch of editing here, but god I wish signatures for BF weren't limited to so few characters....

I don't really see what difference it makes being at the game or watching it on television.

...That's like saying you don't see the difference between a female and a transvestite.

Schoenmakers has been gifted all of his games

Best few players at Box Hill for 3 weeks running to get a call up is being 'gifted'?

When I see him play a good game I'll admit it,

Unlikely...

This whole post is so far off the mark it reminds me of this sci-fi book I once read - The Bible

All jabs at religion aside, Schoey is coming along just perfectly. Got a call up after a few great games for Box Hill and has played as good as any other 10-odd game KP defender going around.

Will get dropped again eventually either through match-ups, fitness or form and will eventually come back in for the same reasons. Like I said, coming along just nicely.
 
This whole post is so far off the mark it reminds me of this sci-fi book I once read - The Bible

All jabs at religion aside, Schoey is coming along just perfectly. Got a call up after a few great games for Box Hill and has played as good as any other 10-odd game KP defender going around.

Will get dropped again eventually either through match-ups, fitness or form and will eventually come back in for the same reasons. Like I said, coming along just nicely.

The Bible Illnino - is that the one with Ben Stratton as the main character??

I think I remember it!!!
 

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Phil Davis for the Crows as well, he's been very, very good for us; but, again, he's got Rutten, Goodwin, Stevens and Bock (when fit) playing around him.



That's it for mine. I'd love to see Roughy at CHB for a couple of games, and Schoey on the HFF. Let him build his confidence and get into the games up there, and use his fitness to constantly work himself into the game.

It'll be really interesting to see the path they take with him, but if Stratton can lock down CHB, I think you'd look at Schoey next year playing more of a Sam Fisher type role; good defensive player who helps his team-mates out, but is equally as important in the quarterback and running role.

Fitness and Pace are (were) two of his main strengths, turning him into a big, strong, slow KPD makes sense when the team desperately needs that type of player; but if they don't, he'd be better elsewhere.

Agree with this post. Would like to see Roughy back and drifting across half back taking marks and not having the pressure of having to kick goals. Would also love to see what Shoey can do with more time in the forward line given his background and forward instincts. Sounds like a win win especially with Jono Brown this week
 

Kapil Hawk

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Haven't posted for a while on this and I think the thread is pretty mute however I think these things need to be said. And in that tone nothing I am going to say here is in direct response to anybody as that is what this thread has seemingly developed into.

Firstly apologies to RS as I spelt his surname incorrect in the initial thread. After the Thorp cases of years gone by I didn't think this would have escaped some ire.

Secondly, it is with interest that Franklin could be out this week. For the sake of the thread could it be reasonable to ask Clarko if RS is to play this week to put him up forward;), as I will agree that when he was drafted it was mentioned that he had similar physical attributes to Ryan O'Keefe, who we had just played a card for. I think RS put on two inches after the draft however. But it is a quirk given the junior career of RS would be nice.

Thirdly it is grossly unfair to compare KPP from different clubs due to the stages of different clubs. I threw up the Watts argument previously and that alike Shoe when he has played in a high pressure clash (Queen's Birthday) he had been found out. KPP's are far easier to develop in clubs which are growing. That's why RS development should not be compared to Buddy and Rough.

Finally I just wanted to through a line out to the bloke who managed to use the word sycophant in a BF thread, incredible.
 
Haven't posted for a while on this and I think the thread is pretty mute however I think these things need to be said. And in that tone nothing I am going to say here is in direct response to anybody as that is what this thread has seemingly developed into.

Firstly apologies to RS as I spelt his surname incorrect in the initial thread. After the Thorp cases of years gone by I didn't think this would have escaped some ire.

Secondly, it is with interest that Franklin could be out this week. For the sake of the thread could it be reasonable to ask Clarko if RS is to play this week to put him up forward;), as I will agree that when he was drafted it was mentioned that he had similar physical attributes to Ryan O'Keefe, who we had just played a card for. I think RS put on two inches after the draft however. But it is a quirk given the junior career of RS would be nice.

Thirdly it is grossly unfair to compare KPP from different clubs due to the stages of different clubs. I threw up the Watts argument previously and that alike Shoe when he has played in a high pressure clash (Queen's Birthday) he had been found out. KPP's are far easier to develop in clubs which are growing. That's why RS development should not be compared to Buddy and Rough.

Finally I just wanted to through a line out to the bloke who managed to use the word sycophant in a BF thread, incredible.

Interesting thought about Shoey going forward. I saw him doing forward drills a number of times last year, and he looked very impressive. Very clean, quick and knew what to do. As a few have posted, he was a forward for much of his junior career.
 
There is a huge difference. I go to every game and watch the zones/structures/patterns which you just donot see on tv. It definitely helps to understand the game.
Coming from someone who spent a fair slab of his life unable to get to many games in Melbourne and watch Live footy, I agree.

There's so much more happening beyond the realms of the camera lens.
 

Hodgepodge

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Schoenmakers has been gifted all of his games so far, because of his development. If you can't see that then I won't bother replying to you again. Saying that his played a good game so far just shows me that you set a lower standard for what you consider is a good game. When I see him play a good game I'll admit it, but up until now I haven't seen him play one.

You didn't think he played well against Essendon? :eek:
 

illnino

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Glad to see the selectors have made the change.
Was always going to happen in the near future with the lack of senior spots available with guys coming back in and the injury list looking good.


Hopefully RS can put some good games together in the 2's now.
Agreed. As he did earlier in the year to earn senior selection in the first place.
 

Silly Money

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I think a lot of people/hypocrites on this thread owe Kapil Hawk an apology. You have all been the ones singling out Schoenmakers for his sub par performances is last years finals series as well as Mondays game.

Kapil Hawk, Great piece of foresight by the way. Couldn't have picked it any better. :thumbsu:
 

Cattery

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From an outsiders point of view I'd say stick with the kid, only young and has a lot of upside *cough*

Actually my recurring nightmare is that we play you guys in the finals and Schoenmakers is "not" there, would make our task that much harder.

Seriously though, can't think of a key defender in a top side that is such a poor decision maker, or who panics more under pressure, think he was involved in one way or another in half our goals on Monday.

What's the concensus on here now, is he likely to hold his spot?
 

BrunoV

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I cannot believe the virtiol directed at Shoenmakers. Time and time again the footy world refuses to give young key position players time to grow into their bodies and games despite the fact that history insists that they almost always need 50 to 70 games (at least).

The rubbish on SEN talkback seems to have been fuelled by those stupid comments Jordan Lewis has been making all summer about selfishness costing you guys the prelim last year. Sometimes it is a case of not being good enough and it is more important to acknowledge that then it is to set off on a witch hunt (I was as disappointed as any of your guys...such is my hatred of Collingwood).

I find it amusing that JPod set about destroying Gibson for the second or third time in a row and yet nothing has been said about Gibson. Cloke is one of the most remarkable athletes that has played the game. He is 108 kg with the tank of a midfielder. There is no defender in the competition that can go with him both on the lead and strengthwise (probably none that can match him for strength).

As for Hawkins, he is another fairly remarkable athlete. He is the man child that is finally growing into his body and it is clear that he is another that is just going to be too big and too strong for pretty much every defender in the game. You cannot fall into the trap of assuming that Hawkins is no good because he has struggled for form and fitness. He may well be the second best key forward in the game (behind Cloke/Buddy).

Shoenmakers is a big, smooth moving kid with a nice kicking action. His whole game looks like it is well put together, it is just a case of confidence, experience and size being required before he hits his straps. It is going to take another 50 games before he is at the level you need him to be.

I shudder to think what Cloke/Hawkins would have done to a much more underdeveloped Stratton/Boumann or the pseudo key defender Gilham.
 
I cannot believe the virtiol directed at Shoenmakers. Time and time again the footy world refuses to give young key position players time to grow into their bodies and games despite the fact that history insists that they almost always need 50 to 70 games (at least).

The rubbish on SEN talkback seems to have been fuelled by those stupid comments Jordan Lewis has been making all summer about selfishness costing you guys the prelim last year. Sometimes it is a case of not being good enough and it is more important to acknowledge that then it is to set off on a witch hunt (I was as disappointed as any of your guys...such is my hatred of Collingwood).

I find it amusing that JPod set about destroying Gibson for the second or third time in a row and yet nothing has been said about Gibson. Cloke is one of the most remarkable athletes that has played the game. He is 108 kg with the tank of a midfielder. There is no defender in the competition that can go with him both on the lead and strengthwise (probably none that can match him for strength).

As for Hawkins, he is another fairly remarkable athlete. He is the man child that is finally growing into his body and it is clear that he is another that is just going to be too big and too strong for pretty much every defender in the game. You cannot fall into the trap of assuming that Hawkins is no good because he has struggled for form and fitness. He may well be the second best key forward in the game (behind Cloke/Buddy).

Shoenmakers is a big, smooth moving kid with a nice kicking action. His whole game looks like it is well put together, it is just a case of confidence, experience and size being required before he hits his straps. It is going to take another 50 games before he is at the level you need him to be.

I shudder to think what Cloke/Hawkins would have done to a much more underdeveloped Stratton/Boumann or the pseudo key defender Gilham.


You make very valid points - but unfortunately for most it is easier to use shoey as the scapegoat rather than take a look at the midfield that allowed geelong such easy access to the ball and when you have that type of delivery coming into the forward line and you have man mountains like pod and hawkins down there it was always going to be a mission. In saying all that though him getting pinged for htb nearly did my head in :p
 
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He played a bad one, no doubt about it. I just think he's been out of his weight division in both weeks though.

Exactly, Its not his fault that he isnt 12 kg heavier yet, his still 21 nearly 22! I dont know one 21 year old kid who is close to 100kg on a AFL list (could be wrong). He would easily need to be 95kgs plus to compete one on one with Hawkins (with great difficulty)

Hawkins ragdolled the freomantle Defense a few times the week before, its just that the whole Fremantle team played better then we did.

I ask all the members here one thing, If Shoey gets the boot who comes in?
Ok most people will say Roughead, So roughead goes back, who plays FF?

Hale? the man who has done SFA in the last 2 weeks who will also need to pinch hit in the ruck? Robbing Peter to pay Paul is not the answer

The only logical thing i can see is maybe switching Shoey and Roughy. But then again we will lose Roughy's great work around the ground.

I hope the kid gets a game againest Adelaide and gets to play on either Walker or Tippett. So he can show us what he can do!
 
R

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Still find it amusing how the boy continues to get shredded whilst players like Bateman and Osborne get free passes to stuff up at will.

His game last week, against the second best KPF was admirable and at times brilliant. Cloke kicked two goals and 7 marks and aside from two contests he did brilliantly all night.

He played bad against the Cats, sure. But, he's played one good game and one bad. Bateman has played two shockers this season, as well as two pretty bad seasons before that. He, and Osborne are the senior players. The ones expected to stand up when the going gets tough and more often than not, are the two that are first to let us (or, me) down.

Having said all of that, I do think it's time to trial him forward. I saw a couple of contests against Geelong where Roughead was moved back. Admittedly this may have been when Gibson was off the ground with the eye-lid wound, but I'd love to see Schoenmakers play forward, given that's where he played as a junior.

Our forward line is stacked at the minute, with Franklin, Roughead, Hale and Gunston in there. Why not?
 
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Still find it amusing how the boy continues to get shredded whilst players like Bateman and Osborne get free passes to stuff up at will.

His game last week, against the second best KPF was admirable and at times brilliant. Cloke kicked two goals and 7 marks and aside from two contests he did brilliantly all night.

He played bad against the Cats, sure. But, he's played one good game and one bad. Bateman has played two shockers this season, as well as two pretty bad seasons before that. He, and Osborne are the senior players. The ones expected to stand up when the going gets tough and more often than not, are the two that are first to let us (or, me) down.

Having said all of that, I do think it's time to trial him forward. I saw a couple of contests against Geelong where Roughead was moved back. Admittedly this may have been when Gibson was off the ground with the eye-lid wound, but I'd love to see Schoenmakers play forward, given that's where he played as a junior.

Our forward line is stacked at the minute, with Franklin, Roughead, Hale and Gunston in there. Why not?


You're kidding me, free pass? You go on about this every single time schoey cops it. Bateman and Ozzy have been rightfully whacked and copped plenty this week.
 
R

Rumblah#16

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You're kidding me, free pass? You go on about this every single time schoey cops it. Bateman and Ozzy have been rightfully whacked and copped plenty this week.

And tell me how many were singing his praises last week after he beat, or at the very least held Cloke very well?

Seriously the way people slay him, you'd think he was 28 with 200 games under his belt.
 
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And tell me how many were singing his praises last week after he beat, or at the very least held Cloke very well?

Seriously the way people slay him, you'd think he was 28 with 200 games under his belt.


He had a good game last week, why would people be singing the praises of a good game by a player. Players like savage and guerra also played good games last week but oh no, nobody praised them much.

Standout players get praised after a great or excellent game and as they should. When players have terrible games they cop it like Bateman, Ozzy, Breust and Schoenmakers did.
 
There's a thread on the main board applauding the arrival of Tom Hawkins, and it's littered with people apologising for how wrong they were to judge him when he was young and inexperienced.......the strange thing is that in that very same thread people are burning Schoenmakers.

Wow, just wow. Idiocy is apparently quite catchy.
 
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