Snoops Annual List Strategy incl Trade & DRAFT targets

[Snoop Dog]

So hinw not Trading Witts be a Mistake? Snoop Dog

If there is something out there they want / need then I would.

 

[TradeDraft]

If there is something out there they want / need then I would.

So you think now is the Highest Market Value he will ever have?

 

[Snoop Dog]

Hi Snoop Dog, with our season over now and our trade period looking like it may be pretty busy, I'd be interesting in re-visiting the list needs you had identified in your OP back in May:

Elite HB flankers
Outside Polish
Key Position

If I look at our season and quickly sum up what went well and what didn't it would be as follows.

What went well:
- Strong contested ball game in all areas of the ground
- Coming of age of our young defenders: Williams having a great year, Marsh and Maynard coming along nicely, Scharenberg starting to build towards the end, Langdon progressing in some areas of his game
- Functional forward line for a large part of the season with Moore developing well
- Good output from incoming players De Goey, Crisp, Varcoe
- Some progress in our ball use in the middle and in our clearance game (admittedly coming off a very low base )

What didn't:
- Clear lack of midfield domination against the best mid combos in the league
- Clear lack of rebounding ability in the back, as well as lack of experience
- Dysfunctional ruck duo penalising us both in the ruck and in the forward line
- Lack of foot skills in all areas of the ground
- Lack of outside speed as well as inconsistency from our wingers: Oxley, Seedsman, Broomhead

Just looking at that, I don't think we need 'key position' this year (we should try to get another young KPF to help Moore in the future in one or two years, the rest is pretty set with Brown, Frost, Marsh, Cloke, Reid, Moore), probably need 'dominant midfield talent' rather than just 'outside polish' but definitely still need 'elite HB flanker'. I think we would get the best improvement from the list if we:

1. Acquired an elite mid with a dominant offensive trait (say Dangerfield but since we're out of the race Treloar would be great too, not as dominant offensively but still an elite pure mid)
2. Acquired a fast and skilled rebounding half back (say Yarran)
3. Sorted our ruck situation (say by trading Witts for a pick around 16-20 to help us acquire Yarran or facilitate the Treloar trade without giving up our 2016 1st rounder)
4. Acquired a fast outside player that could rotate between a wing and half forward (Bennell, but it seems we're out because of off-field and with Motlop signed too I can't think of anyone that fits the bill).

But following the recent rumours the couple of trades I don't understand are:
- Kreuzer: why would we go for him, even if we lose Witts? Yes it would actually improve our game because he's a mature ruck, but it would push Grundy out of his position and stall his development so not the best move for when we will actually contend. White, Moore or Cox can play forward-ruck and be used as depth if we need.
- Aish: he doesn't have the speed we need as an outside mid (we already have Sidebottom and Broomhead for smart and skilled not-so-fast outside mids). If we get Treloar our midfield for our assault to the flag in a few years will be: Pendles, Sidebottom, Treloar, Adams, Crisp, De Goey with potential for Broomhead, Freeman (if he doesn't leave) to play there as well and Greenwood probably fits somewhere there too. If you think that we'll have Broomhead/Sidebottom on one wing, we should have someone more pacey on the other, not Aish. If Freeman does leave however, considering the type of player I'm looking for isn't on the market, why not get Aish but I would try to do everything to keep our 2016 first rounder out of the equation so we can actually address some further needs next year.

Interested in hearing thoughts on what our strongest list needs are looking back at the season and the rumours that are going around.

Mate I think you nailed the key strengths but I would add we built real depth. I think we built to a squad of 30 really good types for 2017. Also think the selections around last years draft was a real win for us.

On the weakness side I would add that we real didn't see the best of the tall or small forwards 'as a grouping' often enough for long enough. Elliott was good early and Fas good late but really can't think of many who really dominated at all. Small to medium forwards are really crucial in todays game and we just have missed the boat on that totally I reckon. I think you and a couple of others have been talking about that. Cloke for me was again the biggest disappointment of the year. $800k for what he delivers is just terrible. White is poor as well.

For me now;

Midfield

Treloar - he is a must. I think he will take some time to settle but a midfield group of Pendlebury, Treloar, Sidebottom, Adams, Crisp and a fit Greenwood and developing DeGoey could be very strong. Also allows Swan forward which I think has to happen as long as he is prepared to chase. We have also have a lot of depth in that area and like you want Freeman to stay as think he is the missing link. Also dont forget that SCharenberg may go there as think they will push him up at some stage.

Rucks

I am probably a 'yay' for Witts going bc I think the Swans would give you their pick 16 which I will come to later. I do wax and wane but if you have a kid who would get you a Rd 1 selection yet you are going to play him in the 2s then I can't see why you wouldn't. Kruezer for a contract of $450k makes sense to me but i dont think Blues will let him go for that. Hence I would probably look at others. Again I wax and wane on it but i'd be trying to convince MK to come. He can play that fwd ruck role and support Grundy.

Defenders

I think the back group is in great shape on the basis that Reid stays fit. If he doesn't we are in trouble again but he proved a real advantage with his intercept and kicking late in the year. Brown can play the bigger bodies. The pace has to come from 2 of Marsh, Williams and Goldsack for mine. Maynard and Langdon the others who can play but aren't quick but intercept, good man on man and have skill. With Oxley, Sinclair, Frost, Toovey you have 4 good depth players. Any interest in Suckling? I like him but not sure who he squeezes out.

Forwards

For mine this is the real issue. As I mentioned above the tall forwards of Cloke, White and Witts / Grundy didn't work. Was better with Moore in there but really need Cloke firing and he just doesn't do it enough and particularly poor against good teams. The smalls aren't much better. Elliott started well but he tapered badly and he didn't do the defensive stuff well. Blair has had to many goes for mine. I'd actually trade him if you could get something decent. Champ Data stats are telling when it comes to small - medium forwards influence in games and our best was Fasolo according to them. Good for him but b*gger me thats an indictment on the rest. Its left field but names like Brad Matera, Hampton, Lindsay Thomas (who is a bit out of favour), Chris Yarran could play that role. Internally Varcoe, Kennedy are options. The latter did it well as a junior at u18 and senior level. .

What do you think?

For what its worth I think this would be a good outcome for us

Treloar - Rd 1 & 2 selections in 2015

Pick 16 - Witts (to Swans)

Pick 20 - Freeman (Saints)....am assuming he is off but would like him to stay.

Pick 34 - Seedsman (North)

Kruezer - Free Agency

I would then use that 16, 20 and 34 on either Aish or a small to medium forward. I am not massive on taking him but if he is there and wants to come you get him.

 

[Apex36]

Mate I think you nailed the key strengths but I would add we built real depth. I think we built to a squad of 30 really good types for 2017. Also think the selections around last years draft was a real win for us.

On the weakness side I would add that we real didn't see the best of the tall or small forwards 'as a grouping' often enough for long enough. Elliott was good early and Fas good late but really can't think of many who really dominated at all. Small to medium forwards are really crucial in todays game and we just have missed the boat on that totally I reckon. I think you and a couple of others have been talking about that. Cloke for me was again the biggest disappointment of the year. $800k for what he delivers is just terrible. White is poor as well.

For me now;

Midfield

Treloar - he is a must. I think he will take some time to settle but a midfield group of Pendlebury, Treloar, Sidebottom, Adams, Crisp and a fit Greenwood and developing DeGoey could be very strong. Also allows Swan forward which I think has to happen as long as he is prepared to chase. We have also have a lot of depth in that area and like you want Freeman to stay as think he is the missing link. Also dont forget that SCharenberg may go there as think they will push him up at some stage.

Rucks

I am probably a 'yay' for Witts going bc I think the Swans would give you their pick 16 which I will come to later. I do wax and wane but if you have a kid who would get you a Rd 1 selection yet you are going to play him in the 2s then I can't see why you wouldn't. Kruezer for a contract of $450k makes sense to me but i dont think Blues will let him go for that. Hence I would probably look at others. Again I wax and wane on it but i'd be trying to convince MK to come. He can play that fwd ruck role and support Grundy.

Defenders

I think the back group is in great shape on the basis that Reid stays fit. If he doesn't we are in trouble again but he proved a real advantage with his intercept and kicking late in the year. Brown can play the bigger bodies. The pace has to come from 2 of Marsh, Williams and Goldsack for mine. Maynard and Langdon the others who can play but aren't quick but intercept, good man on man and have skill. With Oxley, Sinclair, Frost, Toovey you have 4 good depth players. Any interest in Suckling? I like him but not sure who he squeezes out.

Forwards

For mine this is the real issue. As I mentioned above the tall forwards of Cloke, White and Witts / Grundy didn't work. Was better with Moore in there but really need Cloke firing and he just doesn't do it enough and particularly poor against good teams. The smalls aren't much better. Elliott started well but he tapered badly and he didn't do the defensive stuff well. Blair has had to many goes for mine. I'd actually trade him if you could get something decent. Champ Data stats are telling when it comes to small - medium forwards influence in games and our best was Fasolo according to them. Good for him but b*gger me thats an indictment on the rest. Its left field but names like Brad Matera, Hampton, Lindsay Thomas (who is a bit out of favour), Chris Yarran could play that role. Internally Varcoe, Kennedy are options. The latter did it well as a junior at u18 and senior level. .

What do you think?

For what its worth I think this would be a good outcome for us

Treloar - Rd 1 & 2 selections in 2015

Pick 16 - Witts (to Swans)

Pick 20 - Freeman (Saints)....am assuming he is off but would like him to stay.

Pick 34 - Seedsman (North)

Kruezer - Free Agency

I would then use that 16, 20 and 34 on either Aish or a small to medium forward. I am not massive on taking him but if he is there and wants to come you get him.

Swans have Mills and Dunkley to pay for through academy and F/S. Both look like top 10 quality. Can't see them trading out their first. Add to that Witts has already refused to be traded to Sydney. Not gonna happen. More chance of the dogs going for Witts imo.

 

[Snoop Dog]

Swans have Mills and Dunkley to pay for through academy and F/S. Both look like top 10 quality. Can't see them trading out their first. Add to that Witts has already refused to be traded to Sydney. Not gonna happen. More chance of the dogs going for Witts imo.

depends on what they get for Jetta and another player am hearing might be leaving but yeah I tend to agree more likely Witts somewhere else. I did have some decent mail a few weeks ago he wanted back though so was surprised when I read he didn't want back

almost edited it actually bc am just wondering when we go back to 4 full interchange will it mean having 2 good rucks becomes the norm again. I tend to think not bc a number of the modern day rucks love to ruck the bulk of the game which probably means the 2nd ruck needs to play a different role.

What you think?

 

[Apex36]

depends on what they get for Jetta and another player am hearing might be leaving but yeah I tend to agree more likely Witts somewhere else.

almost edited it actually bc am just wondering when we go back to 4 full interchange will it mean having 2 good rucks becomes the norm again. I tend to think not bc a number of the modern day rucks love to ruck the bulk of the game which probably means the 2nd ruck needs to play a different role.

What you think?

Tend to think that Grundy thrives on being numero uno in the middle, as does Witts. We didn't run with two genuine rucks before the sub rule came in, and honestly, White is a reasonably decent option to chop out when Grundy needs a rest.

As much as I think Witts will be a great ruckman once he reaches his prime, I think it will probably be better for both him, and the club to part ways provided a suitable trade was offered. Anything less than a first rounder though and I'd be inclined to keep him for another year.

 

[Snoop Dog]

Tend to think that Grundy thrives on being numero uno in the middle, as does Witts. We didn't run with two genuine rucks before the sub rule came in, and honestly, White is a reasonably decent option to chop out when Grundy needs a rest.

As much as I think Witts will be a great ruckman once he reaches his prime, I think it will probably be better for both him, and the club to part ways provided a suitable trade was offered. Anything less than a first rounder though and I'd be inclined to keep him for another year.

agreed
would you take Sam Reid for Witts?

 

[Justlokan]

almost edited it actually bc am just wondering when we go back to 4 full interchange will it mean having 2 good rucks becomes the norm again. I tend to think not bc a number of the modern day rucks love to ruck the bulk of the game which probably means the 2nd ruck needs to play a different role.

I don't think the 2 ruck norm will return. although the sub rule is gone, the number of interchanges is capped, meaning that that ability of the 2nd ruck to be a genuine target is still premium. I don't think Kreuzer is the answer here, as his best work is as the sole ruck. White may still be our best option, but would prefer that he's used Blicavs-style, using his mobility to full advantage.

 

[Vankri]

Mate I think you nailed the key strengths but I would add we built real depth. I think we built to a squad of 30 really good types for 2017. Also think the selections around last years draft was a real win for us.

On the weakness side I would add that we real didn't see the best of the tall or small forwards 'as a grouping' often enough for long enough. Elliott was good early and Fas good late but really can't think of many who really dominated at all. Small to medium forwards are really crucial in todays game and we just have missed the boat on that totally I reckon. I think you and a couple of others have been talking about that. Cloke for me was again the biggest disappointment of the year. $800k for what he delivers is just terrible. White is poor as well.

For me now;

Midfield

Treloar - he is a must. I think he will take some time to settle but a midfield group of Pendlebury, Treloar, Sidebottom, Adams, Crisp and a fit Greenwood and developing DeGoey could be very strong. Also allows Swan forward which I think has to happen as long as he is prepared to chase. We have also have a lot of depth in that area and like you want Freeman to stay as think he is the missing link. Also dont forget that SCharenberg may go there as think they will push him up at some stage.

Rucks

I am probably a 'yay' for Witts going bc I think the Swans would give you their pick 16 which I will come to later. I do wax and wane but if you have a kid who would get you a Rd 1 selection yet you are going to play him in the 2s then I can't see why you wouldn't. Kruezer for a contract of $450k makes sense to me but i dont think Blues will let him go for that. Hence I would probably look at others. Again I wax and wane on it but i'd be trying to convince MK to come. He can play that fwd ruck role and support Grundy.

Defenders

I think the back group is in great shape on the basis that Reid stays fit. If he doesn't we are in trouble again but he proved a real advantage with his intercept and kicking late in the year. Brown can play the bigger bodies. The pace has to come from 2 of Marsh, Williams and Goldsack for mine. Maynard and Langdon the others who can play but aren't quick but intercept, good man on man and have skill. With Oxley, Sinclair, Frost, Toovey you have 4 good depth players. Any interest in Suckling? I like him but not sure who he squeezes out.

Forwards

For mine this is the real issue. As I mentioned above the tall forwards of Cloke, White and Witts / Grundy didn't work. Was better with Moore in there but really need Cloke firing and he just doesn't do it enough and particularly poor against good teams. The smalls aren't much better. Elliott started well but he tapered badly and he didn't do the defensive stuff well. Blair has had to many goes for mine. I'd actually trade him if you could get something decent. Champ Data stats are telling when it comes to small - medium forwards influence in games and our best was Fasolo according to them. Good for him but b*gger me thats an indictment on the rest. Its left field but names like Brad Matera, Hampton, Lindsay Thomas (who is a bit out of favour), Chris Yarran could play that role. Internally Varcoe, Kennedy are options. The latter did it well as a junior at u18 and senior level. .

What do you think?

For what its worth I think this would be a good outcome for us

Treloar - Rd 1 & 2 selections in 2015

Pick 16 - Witts (to Swans)

Pick 20 - Freeman (Saints)....am assuming he is off but would like him to stay.

Pick 34 - Seedsman (North)

Kruezer - Free Agency

I would then use that 16, 20 and 34 on either Aish or a small to medium forward. I am not massive on taking him but if he is there and wants to come you get him.

With the defence I'm still worried about our rebounding ability, whether through speed or skilled kicking.
Brown offers close to zero there, ditto Frost, Marsh and Williams are very fast but as soon as they put the jets on you can be sure their disposal at full speed will suffer from it, Langdon's has disappointed me on the rebound this year. I think Scharenberg can in time provide good rebound with his kicking but we haven't really seen that come through yet. Reid does help there with his powerful and accurate kick, but I don't think we'll be able to play him consistently in defence. A backline of Brown-Marsh-Langdon-Scharenberg-Maynard-Williams is not dangerous enough on the rebound for mine, which is why I'm trying to fill the gap Heath Shaw left (the good version, not the 2013 version) by targeting someone like Yarran. Suckling I don't really like as a target, seems to go for the fancy stuff too often and I think sometimes simple is better.

If Freeman leaves, I'd become more comfortable with the idea of getting Aish, as it's clearer that Aish is an outside mid versus Freeman where we're not really sure what type of player he is going to become although we know he has speed.

 

[mike123]

With the defence I'm still worried about our rebounding ability, whether through speed or skilled kicking.
Brown offers close to zero there, ditto Frost, Marsh and Williams are very fast but as soon as they put the jets on you can be sure their disposal at full speed will suffer from it, Langdon's has disappointed me on the rebound this year. I think Scharenberg can in time provide good rebound with his kicking but we haven't really seen that come through yet. Reid does help there with his powerful and accurate kick, but I don't think we'll be able to play him consistently in defence. A backline of Brown-Marsh-Langdon-Scharenberg-Maynard-Williams is not dangerous enough on the rebound for mine, which is why I'm trying to fill the gap Heath Shaw left (the good version, not the 2013 version) by targeting someone like Yarran. Suckling I don't really like as a target, seems to go for the fancy stuff too often and I think sometimes simple is better.

If Freeman leaves, I'd become more comfortable with the idea of getting Aish, as it's clearer that Aish is an outside mid versus Freeman where we're not really sure what type of player he is going to become although we know he has speed.

I agree we need to be more dangerous on the rebound.

I was hoping Seedsman could be that kind of player, he was my biggest disappointment.

 

[Quicky]

Mate I think you nailed the key strengths but I would add we built real depth. I think we built to a squad of 30 really good types for 2017. Also think the selections around last years draft was a real win for us.

On the weakness side I would add that we real didn't see the best of the tall or small forwards 'as a grouping' often enough for long enough. Elliott was good early and Fas good late but really can't think of many who really dominated at all. Small to medium forwards are really crucial in todays game and we just have missed the boat on that totally I reckon. I think you and a couple of others have been talking about that. Cloke for me was again the biggest disappointment of the year. $800k for what he delivers is just terrible. White is poor as well.

For me now;

Midfield

Treloar - he is a must. I think he will take some time to settle but a midfield group of Pendlebury, Treloar, Sidebottom, Adams, Crisp and a fit Greenwood and developing DeGoey could be very strong. Also allows Swan forward which I think has to happen as long as he is prepared to chase. We have also have a lot of depth in that area and like you want Freeman to stay as think he is the missing link. Also dont forget that SCharenberg may go there as think they will push him up at some stage.

Rucks

I am probably a 'yay' for Witts going bc I think the Swans would give you their pick 16 which I will come to later. I do wax and wane but if you have a kid who would get you a Rd 1 selection yet you are going to play him in the 2s then I can't see why you wouldn't. Kruezer for a contract of $450k makes sense to me but i dont think Blues will let him go for that. Hence I would probably look at others. Again I wax and wane on it but i'd be trying to convince MK to come. He can play that fwd ruck role and support Grundy.

Defenders

I think the back group is in great shape on the basis that Reid stays fit. If he doesn't we are in trouble again but he proved a real advantage with his intercept and kicking late in the year. Brown can play the bigger bodies. The pace has to come from 2 of Marsh, Williams and Goldsack for mine. Maynard and Langdon the others who can play but aren't quick but intercept, good man on man and have skill. With Oxley, Sinclair, Frost, Toovey you have 4 good depth players. Any interest in Suckling? I like him but not sure who he squeezes out.

Forwards

For mine this is the real issue. As I mentioned above the tall forwards of Cloke, White and Witts / Grundy didn't work. Was better with Moore in there but really need Cloke firing and he just doesn't do it enough and particularly poor against good teams. The smalls aren't much better. Elliott started well but he tapered badly and he didn't do the defensive stuff well. Blair has had to many goes for mine. I'd actually trade him if you could get something decent. Champ Data stats are telling when it comes to small - medium forwards influence in games and our best was Fasolo according to them. Good for him but b*gger me thats an indictment on the rest. Its left field but names like Brad Matera, Hampton, Lindsay Thomas (who is a bit out of favour), Chris Yarran could play that role. Internally Varcoe, Kennedy are options. The latter did it well as a junior at u18 and senior level. .

What do you think?

For what its worth I think this would be a good outcome for us

Treloar - Rd 1 & 2 selections in 2015

Pick 16 - Witts (to Swans)

Pick 20 - Freeman (Saints)....am assuming he is off but would like him to stay.

Pick 34 - Seedsman (North)

Kruezer - Free Agency

I would then use that 16, 20 and 34 on either Aish or a small to medium forward. I am not massive on taking him but if he is there and wants to come you get him.

If North are a bit sour on Thomas and keen on Seedsman, I'd package something and chase Thomas hard. Have you heard something regarding Thomas?

I also like Mullet from North, and we need outside options.

 

[Quicky]

I suspect with this trade period it may be difficult to address our forward line short comings with our energy and resources directed at Treloar.

But we are going to need to fix this area of the ground if we are genuine about competing for a flag. We need one top quality small or medium forwards to add to that Elliott, Fasolo, Swan and Broomhead mix.

Cloke needs to pull his finger out too. He hasn't received enough attention for an ordinary season.

 

[Robroy22]

If North are a bit sour on Thomas and keen on Seedsman, I'd package something and chase Thomas hard. Have you heard something regarding Thomas?

I also like Mullet from North, and we need outside options.

Please, Please please NO to Thomas....we don't want his diving or his sulking any more than North do. Let them pay him for it.

 

[mike123]

I hate how he seems always out of breath, it makes me feel out of breath watching him.

That said I wouldn't mind him.

 

[Snoop Dog]

If North are a bit sour on Thomas and keen on Seedsman, I'd package something and chase Thomas hard. Have you heard something regarding Thomas?

I also like Mullet from North, and we need outside options.

nah I haven't but it seems he aint as engaged as has been

 

[sr36]

But we are going to need to fix this area of the ground if we are genuine about competing for a flag. We need one top quality small or medium forwards to add to that Elliott, Fasolo, Swan and Broomhead mix.

I honestly think that our forward line issues are a system and structure issue, as opposed to a player issue. There was never any space for guys to move.

 

[Apex36]

I honestly think that our forward line issues are a system and structure issue, as opposed to a player issue. There was never any space for guys to move.

Agreed. Midfield is partially to blame. Way too often the ball gets held up too long before entering our forward 50 allowing the opposition to flood their defence.

 

[Bard]

Agreed. Midfield is partially to blame. Way too often the ball gets held up too long before entering our forward 50 allowing the opposition to flood their defence.

Also Blair constantly runs in front of teammates whilst they're leading, it's kind of funny to watch tbh.

 

[Apex36]

Also Blair constantly runs in front of teammates whilst they're leading, it's kind of funny to watch tbh.

If by funny, you mean infuriating, then yes, it's the funniest thing I've ever seen

 

[Bard]

If by funny, you mean infuriating, then yes, it's the funniest thing I've ever seen

It's infuriating at first, sure, but it gets to the point where he's done it so many times it just becomes that ridiculous that I can't help but laugh.

 

[swoop42]

Should we make a play for Yarran should Witts end up being traded or we retain our 2016 first rounder after the Treloar deal?

He'd be handy across half back or even half forward.

Get a feeling Yarran will take his game up a level at a new club.

If not him how about Bennell?

A risk yes but a super talent and he'll come cheaper than he otherwise would have.

We need some more quality indigenous talent at the club IMO.

We're whiter than a Klan meeting.

 

[Obese Arachnid]

Also Blair constantly runs in front of teammates whilst they're leading, it's kind of funny to watch tbh.

Actually, sadly, I think Blair makes the best position of just about all our forwards.

 

[Bard]

Actually, sadly, I think Blair makes the best position of just about all our forwards.

Every game he flies for a mark that isn't his and drops it, and then his defender scrubs up.

 

[Obese Arachnid]

Every game he flies for a mark that isn't his and drops it, and then his defender scrubs up.

Not saying that. I also agree that he gets in the way of leads.

Simply saying he he is quite often the one that make best position for a mark, if he was taller he'd make a great third tall.

Now, should he be doing that, should our players be passing to him (as you have to be pinpoint or it gets rebounded), well that's the question. The answer is probably no but IMO he makes better position than a lot of our forwards.

If you put Trav in Blair's position on those occasions, he take a lot more grabs.

Still miss a s**t load of goals though.

 

[Bard]

Not saying that. I also agree that he gets in the way of leads.

Simply saying he he is quite often the one that make best position for a mark, if he was taller he'd make a great third tall.

Now, should he be doing that, should our players be passing to him (as you have to be pinpoint or it gets rebounded), well that's the question. The answer is probably no but IMO he makes better position than a lot of our forwards.

If you put Trav in Blair's position on those occasions, he take a lot more grabs.

Still miss a s**t load of goals though.

Yeah maybe, it'd be nice if he could ever get some space on his opponent in a lead so that he could take advantage of his positioning if what you say is correct.