Snoops Annual Player Review, List and Draft Strategy

May 29, 2008
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I will agree if we were given information from an expert with knowledge of the case it would lead us to being able to make some judgement. What evidence do you have to draw your conclusions.

Taking Freeman as an example, let us utilise the facts we have seen or been informed of by the Club:

Fact 1: 12 February 2014: Freeman injures his hamstring in pre-season game.

Report from the Collingwood website:

Broomhead broke a bone in his hand, while Freeman – the club's first-round draft pick from 2013 – injured his hamstring.
"We'll see how they go, but they'll be missing three to four (weeks) each, probably," Magpies coach Nathan Buckley said after the game.

Expected return date: 12 March 2014.

Fact 2: Hamstring injuries are classed in three categories (grades 1 - 3)
[http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/90881-overview].

Freeman's hamstring injury was assessed by Collingwood and Buckley informed us that the estimated recovery time would be in the vicinity of one month.

In respect of hamstring injuries there is a consensus from medical experts of the length of time for recovery of each grade of tear: http://www.emedicinehealth.com/pulled_hamstring/page5_em.htm#pulled_hamstring_treatment

"Grade 1 or 2 injuries may require no further therapy and over a few weeks the pulled hamstring should gradually improve and return to normal function.
It may take a few weeks to recover from a hamstring strain, but if symptoms persist, physical therapy may be recommended. Uncommonly, surgery may be required to repair grade 3 strains that have damaged significant amounts of muscle and tendon."

Given that Buckley informed us, after receiving the assessment from Collingwood, that Freeman was "missing three to four weeks" a judgment can be drawn that it was not a Grade 3 strain/tear.

Fact 3: Freeman did not play a single AFL/VFL match all season.


So, the conclusion that can be drawn from these facts is simply that Collingwood either:

  1. initially incorrectly assessed the extent of Freeman's original injury; or
  2. through mistreatment or mismanagement caused a recurrence of the injury.
 
Taking Freeman as an example, let us utilise the facts we have seen or been informed of by the Club:

Fact 1: 12 February 2014: Freeman injures his hamstring in pre-season game.

Report from the Collingwood website:

Broomhead broke a bone in his hand, while Freeman – the club's first-round draft pick from 2013 – injured his hamstring.
"We'll see how they go, but they'll be missing three to four (weeks) each, probably," Magpies coach Nathan Buckley said after the game.

Expected return date: 12 March 2014.

Fact 2: Hamstring injuries are classed in three categories (grades 1 - 3)
[http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/90881-overview].

Freeman's hamstring injury was assessed by Collingwood and Buckley informed us that the estimated recovery time would be in the vicinity of one month.

In respect of hamstring injuries there is a consensus from medical experts of the length of time for recovery of each grade of tear: http://www.emedicinehealth.com/pulled_hamstring/page5_em.htm#pulled_hamstring_treatment

"Grade 1 or 2 injuries may require no further therapy and over a few weeks the pulled hamstring should gradually improve and return to normal function.
It may take a few weeks to recover from a hamstring strain, but if symptoms persist, physical therapy may be recommended. Uncommonly, surgery may be required to repair grade 3 strains that have damaged significant amounts of muscle and tendon."

Given that Buckley informed us, after receiving the assessment from Collingwood, that Freeman was "missing three to four weeks" a judgment can be drawn that it was not a Grade 3 strain/tear.

Fact 3: Freeman did not play a single AFL/VFL match all season.


So, the conclusion that can be drawn from these facts is simply that Collingwood either:

  1. initially incorrectly assessed the extent of Freeman's original injury; or
  2. through mistreatment or mismanagement caused a recurrence of the injury.
I think their is a 3rd conclusion which is likely the correct one. Collingwood have been less than forthcoming with information about injuries that have kept players out for long periods. We still have virtually no knowledge of what happened to Oxley. We are on a drip feed when it comes to Freeman, Schaenberg, Reid and Beams last year.

Rather than mismanagement or misdiagnosis the club just seems reluctant to tell us what is going on. I suspect they knew the extent of injuries but just wanted it kept in house. I think that is foolish because it can be of no real advantage and just frustrates us supporters.

On that basis I still stand by my view that we are in no position to judge the medicos work due to a lack of imformation and knowledge
 
May 29, 2008
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I think their is a 3rd conclusion which is likely the correct one. Collingwood have been less than forthcoming with information about injuries that have kept players out for long periods. We still have virtually no knowledge of what happened to Oxley. We are on a drip feed when it comes to Freeman, Schaenberg, Reid and Beams last year.

Rather than mismanagement or misdiagnosis the club just seems reluctant to tell us what is going on. I suspect they knew the extent of injuries but just wanted it kept in house. I think that is foolish because it can be of no real advantage and just frustrates us supporters.

On that basis I still stand by my view that we are in no position to judge the medicos work due to a lack of imformation and knowledge

It is nonsensical for Buckley to come out and tell us that Freeman will miss about a month knowing that that statement was misleading. I don't buy your conclusion one bit.

We are going around in circles and we will leave it at that.
 
It is nonsensical for Buckley to come out and tell us that Freeman will miss about a month knowing that that statement was misleading. I don't buy your conclusion one bit.

We are going around in circles and we will leave it at that.
It's not as bad an option that all of Freeman, Scharenberg, Beams, Oxley, Reid etc were terribly mismanged or misdiagnosed

I leave it as you suggest but my final word would be I am a medico myself and I operate on people most days of any week. I have a body of knowledge behind me but I don't have any idea on how good or otherwise the Collingwood medicos do their job because I don't have anywhere near enough information about each case to form an opinion.
 
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It's not as bad an option that all of Freeman, Scharenberg, Beams, Oxley, Reid etc were terribly mismanged or misdiagnosed

I leave it as you suggest but my final word would be I am a medico myself and I operate on people most days of any week. I have a body of knowledge behind me but I don't have any idea on how good or otherwise the Collingwood medicos do their job because I don't have anywhere near enough information about each case to form an opinion.
Can't speak for the management of the boys this year, but I can tell you that the only person to blame for Beams' extended injury was Dayne himself. He kept pushing himself too hard during his recovery against doctors orders and re injuring himself.
I was told that last year while he was still injured, and he actually came out and said it in an interview at the end of last year too from memory.
 

dirts

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Taking Freeman as an example, let us utilise the facts we have seen or been informed of by the Club:

Fact 1: 12 February 2014: Freeman injures his hamstring in pre-season game.

Report from the Collingwood website:

Broomhead broke a bone in his hand, while Freeman – the club's first-round draft pick from 2013 – injured his hamstring.
"We'll see how they go, but they'll be missing three to four (weeks) each, probably," Magpies coach Nathan Buckley said after the game.

Expected return date: 12 March 2014.

Fact 2: Hamstring injuries are classed in three categories (grades 1 - 3)
[http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/90881-overview].

Freeman's hamstring injury was assessed by Collingwood and Buckley informed us that the estimated recovery time would be in the vicinity of one month.

In respect of hamstring injuries there is a consensus from medical experts of the length of time for recovery of each grade of tear: http://www.emedicinehealth.com/pulled_hamstring/page5_em.htm#pulled_hamstring_treatment

"Grade 1 or 2 injuries may require no further therapy and over a few weeks the pulled hamstring should gradually improve and return to normal function.
It may take a few weeks to recover from a hamstring strain, but if symptoms persist, physical therapy may be recommended. Uncommonly, surgery may be required to repair grade 3 strains that have damaged significant amounts of muscle and tendon."

Given that Buckley informed us, after receiving the assessment from Collingwood, that Freeman was "missing three to four weeks" a judgment can be drawn that it was not a Grade 3 strain/tear.

Fact 3: Freeman did not play a single AFL/VFL match all season.


So, the conclusion that can be drawn from these facts is simply that Collingwood either:

  1. initially incorrectly assessed the extent of Freeman's original injury; or
  2. through mistreatment or mismanagement caused a recurrence of the injury.
Unless I am mistaken, you are taking comments from Bucks from the post-game as the official medical diagnosis from that pre-season game against Geelong.

He would have been asked about the injuries in the coach presser, and based on the limited feedback he would have been given, expressed the likelihood that both would be 3-4 weeks. In that position, 20 mins after the game, that is not an unrealistic assumption. He even says 'probably'.

When Taylor Adams did his finger, similar situation. You can't know the severity until scans the next day showed his tendon half-way down his hand and season over. Bucks was asked on the night about Freeman, no one could have known the severity.

So definitely not a correct diagnosis on the night, but I wouldn't view it as mismanagement of poor diagnosis.

That said - the management of Freeman HAD to be flawed along the way and communication of it BS. So disappointing he didn't play a bloody game all year
 

mike123

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Unless I am mistaken, you are taking comments from Bucks from the post-game as the official medical diagnosis from that pre-season game against Geelong.

He would have been asked about the injuries in the coach presser, and based on the limited feedback he would have been given, expressed the likelihood that both would be 3-4 weeks. In that position, 20 mins after the game, that is not an unrealistic assumption. He even says 'probably'.

When Taylor Adams did his finger, similar situation. You can't know the severity until scans the next day showed his tendon half-way down his hand and season over. Bucks was asked on the night about Freeman, no one could have known the severity.

So definitely not a correct diagnosis on the night, but I wouldn't view it as mismanagement of poor diagnosis.

That said - the management of Freeman HAD to be flawed along the way and communication of it BS. So disappointing he didn't play a bloody game all year

Yeah, but wasn't Freeman listed 3-4 weeks most of the year?
 

Mame

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It's not as bad an option that all of Freeman, Scharenberg, Beams, Oxley, Reid etc were terribly mismanged or misdiagnosed

I leave it as you suggest but my final word would be I am a medico myself and I operate on people most days of any week. I have a body of knowledge behind me but I don't have any idea on how good or otherwise the Collingwood medicos do their job because I don't have anywhere near enough information about each case to form an opinion.

= BigFooty. But let's just keep stabbing in the dark like it matters #goodwaytokilltime
 

Mame

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Unless I am mistaken, you are taking comments from Bucks from the post-game as the official medical diagnosis from that pre-season game against Geelong.

He would have been asked about the injuries in the coach presser, and based on the limited feedback he would have been given, expressed the likelihood that both would be 3-4 weeks. In that position, 20 mins after the game, that is not an unrealistic assumption. He even says 'probably'.

When Taylor Adams did his finger, similar situation. You can't know the severity until scans the next day showed his tendon half-way down his hand and season over. Bucks was asked on the night about Freeman, no one could have known the severity.

So definitely not a correct diagnosis on the night, but I wouldn't view it as mismanagement of poor diagnosis.

That said - the management of Freeman HAD to be flawed along the way and communication of it BS. So disappointing he didn't play a bloody game all year
IKR. Those statements were actually presented as evidence. Talk about flawed. Never mind all the talk about improving his (Freeman's) running gate since. I can't believe people have the gall to think they have a farking clue about what's going on from behind a computer screen. It's utterly hilarious. And the whole idea that a club is accountable to members who SUPPORT it. It's not a freaking corporation. You don't get dividends. You get to ride the wave; up and down. And if you don't like the ride you get off. The club will be fine, sustained by its REAL supporters.
 

DrDavoren

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I dont see value in trading out our KPB unless as Dave put it we get a Frawley in. Also agree trading out premiership players should be largely a no go.

We showed in the Bulldogs and GC game this year we have lost for now the ability to bunker down and win games we should win when challenged. Those losses were an indictment on our mental effort. I didn't take much from the GWS game as they had a big number of serious outs also and ther was an element tof that game that was the 2nds playing the 2nds. Lose many moe flag players and we may as well just admit we have gone the total rebuild option
I agree next year with some minor list changes we should sneak into finals whilst getting more games into a young list. Watching hawks cats it is clear we lack mental and physical toughness, this would be my number one request from any newbies?
I think we unearthed a future leaders in Langdon and Adams looks the type too, not to mention people rate Moore as a leader.
Pendles was great as first up Captain and I look forward to him getting better. I think we need some more physicality to play with the big boys all in all a good ride ahead with any luck.

Bring on 2015!
 

dirts

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Yeah, but wasn't Freeman listed 3-4 weeks most of the year?
Yep - they were silly not being upfront about the possible outcome once they knew it was so severe.

But bucks feedback on the night shouldn't be an issue
 

Mame

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Yep - they were silly not being upfront about the possible outcome once they knew it was so severe.

But bucks feedback on the night shouldn't be an issue
Do we really want them to come out after a pre-season game and tell us that our pick 10 won't play a game for the whole year? Do we? Really?

And if we take a step back. If we stop thinking about ourselves for a minute. Do we really want the club to come out after a pre-season game and tell our pick 10 that he's not going to play a game for the whole year?

I don't give a fat rat's clacker about the club keeping fans in the loop. We're not in the farking loop. Get over it! I want the club doing what they think is in the best interests of the club. The rest be damned!
 

dirts

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Do we really want them to come out after a pre-season game and tell us that our pick 10 won't play a game for the whole year? Do we? Really?

And if we take a step back. If we stop thinking about ourselves for a minute. Do we really want the club to come out after a pre-season game and tell our pick 10 that he's not going to play a game for the whole year?

I don't give a fat rat's clacker about the club keeping fans in the loop. We're not in the farking loop. Get over it! I want the club doing what they think is in the best interests of the club. The rest be damned!
Thing is - they are not exclusive. They can do both. But not a big issue for me really.
 
Sep 25, 2005
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Its just shambolic at the end of the day to have 2 first round picks who managed half a NAB Cup game and 2 reserves games for the year isnt it.

With a bit of luck we land a pick in the 20's for Harry and can land some speed (say Gartlett) and a tall strong type like Blakely for the midfield.
 
Its just shambolic at the end of the day to have 2 first round picks who managed half a NAB Cup game and 2 reserves games for the year isnt it.

With a bit of luck we land a pick in the 20's for Harry and can land some speed (say Gartlett) and a tall strong type like Blakely for the midfield.
Shambolic is a great word to describe it
 
Taking Freeman as an example, let us utilise the facts we have seen or been informed of by the Club:

Fact 1: 12 February 2014: Freeman injures his hamstring in pre-season game.

Report from the Collingwood website:

Broomhead broke a bone in his hand, while Freeman – the club's first-round draft pick from 2013 – injured his hamstring.
"We'll see how they go, but they'll be missing three to four (weeks) each, probably," Magpies coach Nathan Buckley said after the game.

Expected return date: 12 March 2014.

Fact 2: Hamstring injuries are classed in three categories (grades 1 - 3)
[http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/90881-overview].

Freeman's hamstring injury was assessed by Collingwood and Buckley informed us that the estimated recovery time would be in the vicinity of one month.

In respect of hamstring injuries there is a consensus from medical experts of the length of time for recovery of each grade of tear: http://www.emedicinehealth.com/pulled_hamstring/page5_em.htm#pulled_hamstring_treatment

"Grade 1 or 2 injuries may require no further therapy and over a few weeks the pulled hamstring should gradually improve and return to normal function.
It may take a few weeks to recover from a hamstring strain, but if symptoms persist, physical therapy may be recommended. Uncommonly, surgery may be required to repair grade 3 strains that have damaged significant amounts of muscle and tendon."

Given that Buckley informed us, after receiving the assessment from Collingwood, that Freeman was "missing three to four weeks" a judgment can be drawn that it was not a Grade 3 strain/tear.

Fact 3: Freeman did not play a single AFL/VFL match all season.


So, the conclusion that can be drawn from these facts is simply that Collingwood either:

  1. initially incorrectly assessed the extent of Freeman's original injury; or
  2. through mistreatment or mismanagement caused a recurrence of the injury.

Davoren mentioned at the member's forum that the days of "Hamstring 2 to 3 weeks" are long over. This is due to MRI scanning.

I guess they used to just rest a period of time, then when the player felt better then they'd hit the training track again. Davoren reported that 1 in 3 hamstrings would then quickly re-occur.

These days with MRI they're able to track the healing and bring the player back at the right time.

Yes, I know, this didn't do Freeman much good - I'm just reporting what I heard.

FWIW Davoren mentioned that Freeman's hamstring injury was the worst he'd ever seen.
 
Davoren mentioned at the member's forum that the days of "Hamstring 2 to 3 weeks" are long over. This is due to MRI scanning.

I guess they used to just rest a period of time, then when the player felt better then they'd hit the training track again. Davoren reported that 1 in 3 hamstrings would then quickly re-occur.

These days with MRI they're able to track the healing and bring the player back at the right time.

Yes, I know, this didn't do Freeman much good - I'm just reporting what I heard.

FWIW Davoren mentioned that Freeman's hamstring injury was the worst he'd ever seen.

Which may also be the worst bit of news of all. An 18 yo kid who relies on explosive speed has the worst hamstring an experienced fitness guy has ever seen doesnt give any consolation at all. Worse still that he apparently injured the other side subsequently.
 
May 29, 2008
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Davoren mentioned at the member's forum that the days of "Hamstring 2 to 3 weeks" are long over. This is due to MRI scanning.

I guess they used to just rest a period of time, then when the player felt better then they'd hit the training track again. Davoren reported that 1 in 3 hamstrings would then quickly re-occur.

These days with MRI they're able to track the healing and bring the player back at the right time.

Yes, I know, this didn't do Freeman much good - I'm just reporting what I heard.

FWIW Davoren mentioned that Freeman's hamstring injury was the worst he'd ever seen.

Which begs the question; why keep giving us all the BS about him only being x weeks away.

So Collingwood misrepresented fact? Why? Bizarre decision by a "professional" sporting organisation.
 
So Collingwood misrepresented fact? Why? Bizarre decision by a "professional" sporting organisation.
I posted this in another thread about "in the mix" from last week...
When Rocket talks about Broomy he says he had glandular fever at the start of the year and then hurt his leg mid year.
That was last year.
He broke his hand at the start of this year.
Rocket hasn't got a clue!!

Misrepresenting or no idea?
 
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Maybe we are all just getting a bit carried away.

Potentially he had a very severe hamstring that every time he was on the verge of coming back he broke down again. Club went cautious with him.

Either way, let's hope he has a big pre season and comes out fit and firing at the start if next year.

If he breaks down again then we may have cause for alarm. For now, we can just put it down to a bad year.
 

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I understood it to be if a club offered a pick before us in the same round that we hav to match that pick with a same round pick but after it . Am i wrong?

For example with moore, if a club after our pick bids for him, say pick 9, because that is after our pick ( 8 ) we can use our secound round pick on him (26 )

How is that any different to stewart regarding GWS using 27 and us using 38 on him. We didnt nominate him, that was the problem

Would have actually been pick 42 which was our original second round pick. What I think the issue was is that the F/S bidding process is concluded prior to the draft and the club decided that they would prefer to have all their picks unencumbered to allow them the trade flexibility. It easy to say in hindsight that they missed on Stewart via the F/S process but what if they'd needed that 2nd round pick to secure pick 18 and eventually Grundy, or pick 21 and Broomhead? It's an inexact science and there are a lot of things outside the clubs control, if not, we wouldn't have overlooked J Lewis for C Egan.
 

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U clearly dont understand. We nominate what we think his worth, the market dictates what his worth is if a club bids.
We didnt nominate, no club had to bid.
We didnt even test the waters
Mistake on our behalf

Actually think you're wrong. We just nominate, then the bidding process determines his worth and what we're prepared to match.

Think the club has acknowledged they had gotten this 1 wrong. Isn't the first, won't be the last.
 
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