Stop, I want to get off

[Malifice]

I think this is very true. One of the most significant problems with the fairly mediocre calibre of leadership we've seen in recent times is the public is so furious with them that it removes the requirement for credible oppositions to have gotten themselves together before they get the keys to the lodge. This creates a very frightening cycle of mediocrity. The Victorian and Queensland elections are amazing not just for the first term results but because the two new premiers have CVs which would barely qualify them for shire councillor jobs.

This. A million times this.

All you have to have in opposition is a negative position on everything the current government is doing, and a few slogans and sound bites.

I know the saying is Governments get voted out, and opposition never gets voted in, but I would sell my soul for a politician with clear vision.

'Its time'.

 

[Impunity!]

Woah. When I wrote 'cultural elite' I meant those in society that believe they are above everyone else. The born-to-rule types.

Sorry guys whenever someone uses the term "cultural elite", I get tagged in, so, you know, can you stop it? The notifications are distracting.

 

[Belnakor]

I know the saying is Governments get voted out, and opposition never gets voted in, but I would sell my soul for a politician with clear vision.

We were spoilt by Keating and Howard who had vision, wanted to achieve things. This current crop stand for themselves and being in power.

 

[Gough]

What did Howard achieve aside from a structural deficit?

 

[Belnakor]

It's amazing, nobody voted for Abbott and the Libs and yet they hold government. It's like those who voted for them are almost embarrassed into admitting they were conned so badly.

plenty of people voted for Abbott, they just wouldn't remember because they were voting for "not Rudd/Gillard" in their mind.

 

[Belnakor]

What did Howard achieve aside from a structural deficit?

Gun buyback, reduced union power, waterfront, refugees, middle class enrichment. plenty of stuff all within his own ideology.

your a dyed in the wool Labor supporter, you are probably in the camp who thinks old Gough did everything right when he was the PM.

 

[Belnakor]

As for One Nation, accuse me of wearing a tin foil hat if you want, but I think the party was created purely as a Coalition 'vanguard' unit to gauge, then stir public opinion on the issue.

nobody is smart enough to do that in the Liberals. It cost them government in WA and went close to creating a party quite similiar to the Greens.

 

[Malifice]

We were spoilt by Keating and Howard who had vision, wanted to achieve things. This current crop stand for themselves and being in power.

And Hawke. One of our finest.

 

[Ratts of Tobruk]

The boat-people issue, and Labour's re-activation of Howard's Pacific Solution, was one of the last straws for me. Here was an A.L.P that suffered an appalling lack of vision, in my opinion. Vote-chasing they may have been, but these were real people with real lives that were being affected.

As for One Nation, accuse me of wearing a tin foil hat if you want, but I think the party was created purely as a Coalition 'vanguard' unit to gauge, then stir public opinion on the issue.

I think there was some association there to begin with, right? Oldfield used to work for Abbott, I think... But then Abbott worked very hard to close it down later.

Anyway, I don't want to de-rail the convo but saying that "these were real people with real lives" is exactly the point. Real people with real lives were dying at sea. I was ready to believe Burnside and Rudd, etc. that there was no reason to be punitive to boat entries, but I (and Rudd, eventually) were convinced by the evidence. 1000+ dead of real people with real lives lost. It is heartless to let that go on, so I don't think Labor sold its soul on that at all. They increased their refugee intake to compensate for the harsh tactics. Abbott (eventually) copied that tactic and will increase the LNP intake to a bit over 18,000 from memory. Labor was over 20,000.

My point is that there are some very obvious differences between the parties. Huge differences. So when I see people trotting the line that they are all the same, then it is either due to frustration at their particular issue not being heard, a desire to get people voting for whatever party they are a part of (Greens or PUP, for example), or it is a general distrust of politicians. Due to your use of the term "cultural elite" I thought that you were most likely in one of the first two groups, so sorry if that misrepresented you. I haven't heard that terminology used for "born-to-rule" types, but there is a clear attempt my rightwing campaigners (the actual meaning of campaigner ) to use leftwing language in their arguments so maybe the vice versa is happening too.

What did Howard achieve aside from a structural deficit?

Gun buyback, reduced union power, waterfront, refugees, middle class enrichment. plenty of stuff all within his own ideology.

Howard's stated vision was for people to feel comfortable and relaxed. By that he meant, none of the symbolic stuff (saying sorry) or nation-changing stuff (Republic) Keating was keen on. It also meant not particularly having a vision beyond the GST and Industrial Relations, which is why he just went with the cash handouts for 3/4ths of his term, but the Gun Buyback stuff was thrust upon him and most people agreed with his actions. Refugees was pure dogwhistling.

 

[Maggie5]

Gun buyback, reduced union power, waterfront, refugees, middle class enrichment. plenty of stuff all within his own ideology.

your a dyed in the wool Labor supporter, you are probably in the camp who thinks old Gough did everything right when he was the PM.

Nah, just better and more for the general population and on a smaller budget which is what got him into trouble.

 

[Mofra]

your a dyed in the wool Labor supporter, you are probably in the camp who thinks old Gough did everything right when he was the PM.

Gough faced a far more hostile senate than any of Rudd, Gillard or Abbott has faced - blatant about not passing supply bills.
No senate has done such a thing since.

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

Gough faced a far more hostile senate than any of Rudd, Gillard or Abbott has faced - blatant about not passing supply bills.
No senate has done such a thing since.

Did Gough have the 'double dissolution' option available to him to overcome the supply issue? Or was that brought in later?

 

[QuietB]

Gun buyback, reduced union power, waterfront, refugees, middle class enrichment. plenty of stuff all within his own ideology.

your a dyed in the wool Labor supporter, you are probably in the camp who thinks old Gough did everything right when he was the PM.

I don't think you have actually listed anything resembling vision, except maybe the guns bit.

As soon as Howard got a chance to implement his " vision" he lost his seat

 

[Mofra]

Did Gough have the 'double dissolution' option available to him to overcome the supply issue? Or was that brought in later?

He actually triggered it himself midway through his first term - won a second election ~18 months after winning his first one.

What followed was an act of political bastardry even Scott Morrison would have been proud of.
The senate refused to pass anything - even supply bills - and Gough was forced to pass legislation (which he went to the election with and had a clear mandate for) via constitutional clauses allowing for joint sittings of the house of reps & the senate (which combined Labor had a majority in).

Every single piece of legislation passed was challenged in the courts by the Libs & the (then) Country party. It remains arguably the lowest point in Australian politics where national function was completely sacrificed because of the Libs public tantrums about not being in power.

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

He actually triggered it himself midway through his first term - won a second election ~18 months after winning his first one.

What followed was an act of political bastardry even Scott Morrison would have been proud of.
The senate refused to pass anything - even supply bills - and Gough was forced to pass legislation (which he went to the election with and had a clear mandate for) via constitutional clauses allowing for joint sittings of the house of reps & the senate (which combined Labor had a majority in).

Every single piece of legislation passed was challenged in the courts by the Libs & the (then) Country party. It remains arguably the lowest point in Australian politics where national function was completely sacrificed because of the Libs public tantrums about not being in power.

He was voted IN by the Australian people - it should logically follow that he could only be REMOVED by the Australian people. If I were Gough I would have stood by my mandate - the people count for more than the Constitution in this instance. If they believe in you then they trump every Monarch and Governor-General on the planet.

Political bastardy indeed.

 

[Pie eyed]

Gun buyback, reduced union power, waterfront, refugees, middle class enrichment. plenty of stuff all within his own ideology.

your a dyed in the wool Labor supporter, you are probably in the camp who thinks old Gough did everything right when he was the PM.

The only thing Howard can rightly lay claim to was the gun buy back. He did nothing but exacerbate the refugee issue as have both Labor and Libs since, middle class enrichment was and still is the result of Hawke/Keating monetary policy, floating the dollar and compulsory super.
Howard may have been holding the reins at a time during the journey but he neither lead the horse or knew in which direction it should go once it got started.

 

[Bunk Moreland]

It's just *ed. The Libs spend six years in opposition carrying on like moral crusaders, now they're doing exactly the same thing.

 

[holy diver]

Notice how fascism is on the rise on Europe due to frustrations of either spectrum of government...

Could it happen here?

 

[GOAUS!]

Notice how fascism is on the rise on Europe due to frustrations of either spectrum of government...

Could it happen here?

Australia isn't quite the same as the Europe situation. The Economy being a major difference.

 

[The Passenger]

They need to come up with some sort of system where each of the two major party's gets docked a vote at the next election for every time one of their minions mentions the other major party.

I'm ******* sick to death of Abbott talking about how they are still recovering from Labor. And trying to shift everything back to a previous government.

And same for *en Shorten over in the other corner. You don't need to tell us how retarted this Liberal government is. We can all see it. Tell us what you're going to do to fix s**t up in a couple of years time because you haven't really given us much of any solid plan, and quite frankly, you don't fill a lot of us with any confidence either.

There's got to be a point where the voting public vote for someone because here's a person that I can be confident in to govern the country not because we just need to get rid of these campaigners running the show now

Right now that is the cycle we are in, and it doesn't really look like it's going to change any time soon.

 

[Dry Rot]

Have to say that for the first time in my life, if a federal election were held tomorrow I think I'd genuinely cast a donkey vote.

I just have zero interest in participating in this democratic "system".

We have two parties, neither has any polices, neither has any vision or leadership. They just make populist slogans, no matter how contradictory they are, and the other side just opposes because they're the opposition.

Welcome to 1996. That's where I got to post Keating, and haven't voted since.

 

[Dry Rot]

They need to come up with some sort of system where each of the two major party's gets docked a vote at the next election for every time one of their minions mentions the other major party.

I want the ACCC given powers to examine their election promises and what say they post election.

 

[Ratts of Tobruk]

Welcome to 1996. That's where I got to post Keating, and haven't voted since.

Labor was criticised post-96 for agreeing with Howard too often. Beazley was eventually removed as it was seen as a problem. That doesn't square with the suggestion that 'Opposition parties just oppose for the sake of it'.

Latham couldn't really be criticised for not having 'vision' - Medicare Gold and stopping subsidies for 67 of the richest Private Schools is a 'vision' of a very different Australia to Howard's. Rudd's vision may have been Howard-lite, but the real problem in Australian politics started with the current Prime Minister and the untroubled-by-facts approach of his support team and supporters.

 

[CountryRace]

Notice how fascism is on the rise on Europe due to frustrations of either spectrum of government...

Could it happen here?

Ask the 8 year old girls getting kicked in the head by rentacops at train stations

 

[Dry Rot]

Labor was criticised post-96 for agreeing with Howard too often. Beazley was eventually removed as it was seen as a problem. That doesn't square with the suggestion that 'Opposition parties just oppose for the sake of it'.

Fine, but the ALP have been s**t since Keating and not worth a vote.