TAC Cup 2009

[footyman]

do people rate a coach in the TAC cup with no AFL experience a better option?

Tough one to answer. A coach with AFL experience is good provided they have the teaching qualities and temperament to deal with coaching 17 and 18 year olds.

Coaches with recent AFL experience gain the respect of the playing group immediately, but ultimately its dependent on the individual. Garry Hocking in my view has been a successful coach at TAC Cup level (despite the fact the Falcons crashed in the finals this year). Jarrod Molloy last year at Sandringham wasn't a success.

Then guys like Phil Bunn, who had a couple of years in the then VFL system in the early 80s but have done ten year apprenticeships at TAC clubs and with Victorian Rep sides are just as good I think.

 

[its game on]

Tough one to answer. A coach with AFL experience is good provided they have the teaching qualities and temperament to deal with coaching 17 and 18 year olds.

Coaches with recent AFL experience gain the respect of the playing group immediately, but ultimately its dependent on the individual. Garry Hocking in my view has been a successful coach at TAC Cup level (despite the fact the Falcons crashed in the finals this year). Jarrod Molloy last year at Sandringham wasn't a success.

Then guys like Phil Bunn, who had a couple of years in the then VFL system in the early 80s but have done ten year apprenticeships at TAC clubs and with Victorian Rep sides are just as good I think.

Couldn't agree more

 

[Cats_a_Stingrays_fan]

Thoroughly enjoyed the TAC GF footyman. Ripping game. I like those shoot outs more than the dour defensive stuff dished up in the AFL.

I watched the WAFL colts GF last week and the TAC Cup GF this week and I see quite a lot of talent their that AFL clubs could work with, so keep scratching my head at the shallow draft comments that keep perpetuating.

Anyway, thought Pitt was fantastic for the Stingrays. Is he another mid sized forward or a tall? Really stood out. The bulldogs will be salivating at Wallis and Liberatore! Temel was very good as were Thompson and Mitchell and 16? - the Cannons kid that contributed to the first 2 goals, strange/awkward mover but can get it and use it.

Highly entertaining and thoroughly enjoyed, well done and congrats to Calder.

I was at the Grand Final and it was a great game to watch. Unfortunately for Rays the kicking let them down, Calder's 12 straight goals was unbelieveble. In fact when Calder kicked their first point the crowd cheered....lol Another fact was the heights of the Calder boys, Rays only had a couple of big boys, Ben Mitchell(31) 195cm and Levi Casboult (45) 196cm. It may have been interesting to see one of those boys down back. The umpire needs a lesson in bouncing the ball...first bounce was played but should have clearly been brought back and re bounced. I really felt for Rays as was there 2nd GF straight defeat in a row, but having said that it was a much better game than 2008. Rays played very well against Geelong week before just wondered if they played the GF then. Congrats to both Teams on reaching the GF and giving us an enjoyable game to watch

 

[footyman]

I really felt for Rays as was there 2nd GF straight defeat in a row

And coach Graeme Yeats third defeat in a Grand Final in the past five years. They keep getting close but just haven't been able to get up on the big day, hopefully they can go one better in 2010.

Stingrays have never won a TAC Cup Premiership either, yet have been in the competition since it began. It'd be great to see one of the three clubs not to win a premiership (Dandenong, Western and Bendigo) get their hands on one.

 

[Cats_a_Stingrays_fan]

And coach Graeme Yeats third defeat in a Grand Final in the past five years. They keep getting close but just haven't been able to get up on the big day, hopefully they can go one better in 2010.

Stingrays have never won a TAC Cup Premiership either, yet have been in the competition since it began. It'd be great to see one of the three clubs not to win a premiership (Dandenong, Western and Bendigo) get their hands on one.

Not sure what they need to do, maybe a motivator before the Grand Finals, they seem to have the talent.

Also can i ask about the Morrish Medal and please I am not taking anything away from the Anton Woods who won as he had a wonderful season.. As its based on the games played during the season and Anton Woods played all season so he must attend a school who doesnt play school sport on a Saturday so this would may mean that a Private school boy is unlikely to win it as they cant play enough games .. Do we truely get the Best player... just throwing it out there... as i say Congrats to Anton. ???

 

[footyman]

Also can i ask about the Morrish Medal and please I am not taking anything away from the Anton Woods who won as he had a wonderful season.. As its based on the games played during the season and Anton Woods played all season so he must attend a school who doesnt play school sport on a Saturday so this would may mean that a Private school boy is unlikely to win it as they cant play enough games .. Do we truely get the Best player... just throwing it out there... as i say Congrats to Anton. ???

Fair call, and the answer to be blunt is that we don't see the best player win the award.

Congratulations to Anton Woods for winning it (and the coaches award) but the medal now goes to the player who plays the most games in a season, not necessarily the best player. Three years ago, when the U18 Championships were played over a week most players only missed 2 or 3 TAC cup games. With the new format they miss 5 or 6 games.

Anton Woods played 18 H&A games and polled 24 votes. Allan Christensen and Ben Cunnington finished equal 2nd and polled 17 votes, but played 6 and 8 less games respectively. Would one of those boys would have polled the necessary votes to win the award if they played a full season? Take nothing away from Anton Woods either, he had a great year, played terrific footy and was consistent throughout. But whether the award loses its credibility by basically giving private school players and, more importantly National Championships representatives, little (if any) chance of winning it would be the subject of a good debate.

Personally I'd like to see some mathematical genius come up with a weighting system where National Championships players are not severly disadvantaged. Even just a basic standardisation - Anton Woods picked up 1.33 votes per game, Allan Christensen polled 1.42 votes per game and Ben Cunnington polled 1.7 votes per game. Or another perspective Woods polled 44% of possible votes (24 votes from a possible 54), Christensen 47% (17 from 36) and Cunnington 54% (17 from 30).

What do you think??

 

[its game on]

Fair call, and the answer to be blunt is that we don't see the best player win the award.

Congratulations to Anton Woods for winning it (and the coaches award) but the medal now goes to the player who plays the most games in a season, not necessarily the best player. Three years ago, when the U18 Championships were played over a week most players only missed 2 or 3 TAC cup games. With the new format they miss 5 or 6 games.

Anton Woods played 18 H&A games and polled 24 votes. Allan Christensen and Ben Cunnington finished equal 2nd and polled 17 votes, but played 6 and 8 less games respectively. Would one of those boys would have polled the necessary votes to win the award if they played a full season? Take nothing away from Anton Woods either, he had a great year, played terrific footy and was consistent throughout. But whether the award loses its credibility by basically giving private school players and, more importantly National Championships representatives, little (if any) chance of winning it would be the subject of a good debate.

Personally I'd like to see some mathematical genius come up with a weighting system where National Championships players are not severly disadvantaged. Even just a basic standardisation - Anton Woods picked up 1.33 votes per game, Allan Christensen polled 1.42 votes per game and Ben Cunnington polled 1.7 votes per game. Or another perspective Woods polled 44% of possible votes (24 votes from a possible 54), Christensen 47% (17 from 36) and Cunnington 54% (17 from 30).

What do you think??

Should there be a weighting factor of 1.1 for 185cm, 1.2 for 190cm, 1.3 for 195cm and 1.5 for 200cm as these guys never seem to get a look in!!

 

[footyman]

Should there be a weighting factor of 1.1 for 185cm, 1.2 for 190cm, 1.3 for 195cm and 1.5 for 200cm as these guys never seem to get a look in!!

Fair point!!!

 

[The Dominator 3]

Last night, Friday October 2nd, the Sandringham Dragons held its annual Best and Fairest night. The results are as follows:

1st Jonno Nash 160
2nd Pat Liston 155
3rd Tyson Mitchem 132
4th Cameron Sharp 95
5th Tyson Thomas 60
6th Jack Purton-Smith 40
7th Nick Boland 38
8th Dylan Jones 34
9th Jackson Sketcher 30
10th Xavier Murphy 25
11th Jake Dermott 24

It was a thrilling vote count with Nash polling well early until Liston bridged the gap in the mid part of the season to take the lead after round 16. The Best and Fairest was not decided until the last game of the year against Gippsland where Nash sealed a best on ground performance.

Other award winners:

Jonno Nash - Player's MVP
Cameron Sharp - Best First Year Player
Brock Rawlinson - Leadership Award

 

[footyman]

1st Jonno Nash 160
2nd Pat Liston 155

Much deserved winner, in fact a much deserved quinella. Both those guys had terrific seasons. Definately the heart and soul of that team this year, and doing everything they could to keep their team competitive, often in trying conditions.

 

[Archie Pelago]

Fair call, and the answer to be blunt is that we don't see the best player win the award.

Congratulations to Anton Woods for winning it (and the coaches award) but the medal now goes to the player who plays the most games in a season, not necessarily the best player. Three years ago, when the U18 Championships were played over a week most players only missed 2 or 3 TAC cup games. With the new format they miss 5 or 6 games.

Anton Woods played 18 H&A games and polled 24 votes. Allan Christensen and Ben Cunnington finished equal 2nd and polled 17 votes, but played 6 and 8 less games respectively. Would one of those boys would have polled the necessary votes to win the award if they played a full season? Take nothing away from Anton Woods either, he had a great year, played terrific footy and was consistent throughout. But whether the award loses its credibility by basically giving private school players and, more importantly National Championships representatives, little (if any) chance of winning it would be the subject of a good debate.

Personally I'd like to see some mathematical genius come up with a weighting system where National Championships players are not severly disadvantaged. Even just a basic standardisation - Anton Woods picked up 1.33 votes per game, Allan Christensen polled 1.42 votes per game and Ben Cunnington polled 1.7 votes per game. Or another perspective Woods polled 44% of possible votes (24 votes from a possible 54), Christensen 47% (17 from 36) and Cunnington 54% (17 from 30).

What do you think??

Don't umpires give the votes? Mathematical solutions or weighting are not going to change the fact that Brownlow/Gardiner/Morrish Medals are voted on by people who are not in the best position to judge best players.

 

[footyman]

Don't umpires give the votes? Mathematical solutions or weighting are not going to change the fact that Brownlow/Gardiner/Morrish Medals are voted on by people who are not in the best position to judge best players.

Yeah the umpires give the votes. You're right, the wrong people give the votes.

But the whole Morrish Medal award is even more compromised by the fact we are seeing so many of the better players in the TAC Cup only available for 10-12 games a season. Thats where some type of weighting might be necessary.

Ben Cunnington would have shitted the Morrish Medal in had he played the whole season IMO, but because he represented Vic Country he missed out. Individual award, the kid may not care about it anyway, but the Morrish should not be some consolation prize for a kid who didnt play Championships and was fortunate enough to play a full TAC Cup season.

 

[Dean3]

Yeah the umpires give the votes. You're right, the wrong people give the votes.

But the whole Morrish Medal award is even more compromised by the fact we are seeing so many of the better players in the TAC Cup only available for 10-12 games a season. Thats where some type of weighting might be necessary.

Would you have a weighting for VFL/AFL players who miss a lot of VFL footy because they were playing in the AFL side?

I think not.

Ask Anton Woods what he'd prefer — a Morrish Medal, or a chance to play for Vic Metro. Pretty sure most would opt for Vic Metro — so I reckon the players and everyone else understands where the Morrish Medal is at in the pecking order.

 

[footyman]

Would you have a weighting for VFL/AFL players who miss a lot of VFL footy because they were playing in the AFL side?

I think not.

That's a fair point. And I realise a weighting system won't ever happen because thats not how B&F's work.

But I want to throw up suggestions as to how we can recognise the best player(s) in the TAC Cup, in a competition where the best players are so often unavailable!

Even the coaches award slants in favour of guys who play more matches under the current system. Maybe they should look at adjust the voting in that to be like the Sunday Footy Show where they give four players a vote out of 10, or like the AFL coaches award where both coaches do a 5-4-3-2-1 and they are tallied together.

Ask Anton Woods what he'd prefer — a Morrish Medal, or a chance to play for Vic Metro. Pretty sure most would opt for Vic Metro — so I reckon the players and everyone else understands where the Morrish Medal is at in the pecking order.

Agree.

Given the 7 vote margin in the Morrish, Woods won fair and square. But next year what if the winner plays 18 games and wins by 1 vote, ahead of a player who only played 12 games. Do we just say "stiff s**t" or do we try and do something about it? A league B&F is a treasured item - something a guy will have and remember forever. The current voting system means most of the competition have no chance of winning it. And to be honest I am sick of seeing short people win it as well! The umpires need to wake up to themselves and learn a few more players names and pay attention to the taller blokes.

 

[Grimmett]

Kreuzer, 2007 winner, midget?

 

[-VC-]

Kreuzer, 2007 winner, midget?

Obviously an exception to the rule.

I mean, your point pretty much begins and ends with Kreuzer.

 

[its game on]

Obviously an exception to the rule.

I mean, your point pretty much begins and ends with Kreuzer.

Yep, had a name and the hype with good reason and then was no1 pick, even the tac cup umpires got that year right.

 

[Boundary Boy]

FM and the rest of you should be ashamed with the disrespectful comments regarding Anton Wood's Morrish medal win.

You draw attention to his stature and gloss over the excellent season he had - evident by the high ranking in many of the important stats.

Your suggestion of weightings quite frankly is ridiculous - of course it won't happen as you state - not because it is too hard but because as I say it is totally ridiculous. How about a weighting that would work in Wood's favour.....receiving a higher weighting for playing in a team that struggled for most of the first half of the year. You guys then bang the same old drum that the umpies aren't in the best position to award votes and then go on to say that even the coaches got it wrong for coming up with the same winner.

You can only play against those who are out there, esp week in week out. FM's suggestion of Cunnington shitting in the medal doesn't take into account how hard it is to consistently play at a level that puts a player in the top 3 in a game most weeks. Playing each week raises the spectre of injury, form slump and other teams paying even greater attention on those players "in form".

It seems that FM's proposal to give the Morrish medal to the best player would be based on who is perceived as the best player. If that were the case this year, Scully would have been awarded the medal at both the start of the year and at the end - regardless of TAC performance. Perhaps you guys would like to see a MVP award voted by peers???

Anyway, I reckon some of you owe Anton Woods an apology and I wish him all the best in finding his way to an AFL club next year. As Pagan said he deserves a chance and he won't disappoint.

 

[footyman]

FM and the rest of you should be ashamed with the disrespectful comments regarding Anton Wood's Morrish medal win.

Well I'm not. I congratulated Anton Woods for winning the medal. I have no reason to have sour grapes or anything either. But as I said I think the award lacks credibility. It's worthless because the best 50 players in the competition don't play enough games to be a realistic chance of winning it. In the past the carnival reps missed two TAC Cup matches, now they miss six games. In this year's Morrish voting, 7 of the top 10 were non-carnival reps. The fact Cunnington and Christensen finished 2nd and 3rd just shows how good really were when they played TAC Cup. IMO they were the standout best players this year barring a window of six weeks when they were unavailable - through no fault of their own.

Your suggestion of weightings quite frankly is ridiculous - of course it won't happen as you state - not because it is too hard but because as I say it is totally ridiculous.

I've acknowledged the problems, but it's creating some discussion and debate in a thread that had been very quiet. Nothing wrong with the odd post to stir some discussion is there?

I still stand by my aim of trying to create an award where everybody has some chance of winning.

You guys then bang the same old drum that the umpies aren't in the best position to award votes and then go on to say that even the coaches got it wrong for coming up with the same winner.

Anton Woods didnt even win the Northern Knights B&F, how does that happen? Gets the votes off Denis in the Coaches Award, but not the clubs B&F?

You can only play against those who are out there, esp week in week out. FM's suggestion of Cunnington shitting in the medal doesn't take into account how hard it is to consistently play at a level that puts a player in the top 3 in a game most weeks. Playing each week raises the spectre of injury, form slump and other teams paying even greater attention on those players "in form".

And how hard is it for Metro and Country reps to play under two different coaches in consecutive weeks, learn different gameplans, travel etc? That's just as hard. The fact so many players came back absolutely stuffed after the Nationals - and I'm talking both Victorian and Interstate kids - shows how physically demanding the new format is on players.

It seems that FM's proposal to give the Morrish medal to the best player would be based on who is perceived as the best player. If that were the case this year, Scully would have been awarded the medal at both the start of the year and at the end - regardless of TAC performance. Perhaps you guys would like to see a MVP award voted by peers???

Not at all. You're being sarcastic.

My proposal is create an award where form is absolutely essential, but where we aren't putting half the field off a handicap that they have little or no chance of winning from.

 

[Grimmett]

Obviously an exception to the rule.

I mean, your point pretty much begins and ends with Kreuzer.

Yep. Although Lenny Hayes isn't a 'midget'. However, I cannot argue for any more talls winning it in the TAC Cup era unless somebody knows that Dean Watson or Brad Smith were beanpoles.

 

[forgetaboutit]

My proposal is create an award where form is absolutely essential, but where we aren't putting half the field off a handicap that they have little or no chance of winning from.

Simple one really, The votes they receive playing for Metro or Country count for the Morrish.

 

[footyman]

Simple one really, The votes they receive playing for Metro or Country count for the Morrish.

That certainly is something that is worth consideration.

The Gold Coast (or rather Queensland) v NSW/ACT Championships game was also counted as a TAC Cup match, and there were Morrish votes on that one.

 

[Boundary Boy]

That certainly is something that is worth consideration.

The Gold Coast (or rather Queensland) v NSW/ACT Championships game was also counted as a TAC Cup match, and there were Morrish votes on that one.

Agree a good suggestion and FM's example is valid. Also similar to Jets playing NSW/ACT this season for TAC points and votes.

 

[its game on]

FM and the rest of you should be ashamed with the disrespectful comments regarding Anton Wood's Morrish medal win.

You draw attention to his stature and gloss over the excellent season he had - evident by the high ranking in many of the important stats.

Your suggestion of weightings quite frankly is ridiculous - of course it won't happen as you state - not because it is too hard but because as I say it is totally ridiculous. How about a weighting that would work in Wood's favour.....receiving a higher weighting for playing in a team that struggled for most of the first half of the year. You guys then bang the same old drum that the umpies aren't in the best position to award votes and then go on to say that even the coaches got it wrong for coming up with the same winner.

You can only play against those who are out there, esp week in week out. FM's suggestion of Cunnington shitting in the medal doesn't take into account how hard it is to consistently play at a level that puts a player in the top 3 in a game most weeks. Playing each week raises the spectre of injury, form slump and other teams paying even greater attention on those players "in form".

It seems that FM's proposal to give the Morrish medal to the best player would be based on who is perceived as the best player. If that were the case this year, Scully would have been awarded the medal at both the start of the year and at the end - regardless of TAC performance. Perhaps you guys would like to see a MVP award voted by peers???

Anyway, I reckon some of you owe Anton Woods an apology and I wish him all the best in finding his way to an AFL club next year. As Pagan said he deserves a chance and he won't disappoint.

The weighting for the taller players were delivered tounge in cheek. More than one on here, know who I am, and would treat this as nothing serious.

In a thread at the beginning of the season a question was asked " What you like like to see this season in the TAC? ". My reply was that I'd umpires have a good look at the POTY awards, as it is out of all proportion that sub 175cm players poll exceedingly well in the Morrish Medal, but when it comes to draft day these results aren't reflected in high draftings. This is IMO a reflection not on the AFL clubs, or BF posters or the players, but the TAC umpires, so BB please chill out and read the posts closely, the umpires continue to get this wrong. I'm not a huge fan of bare stats myself, they can be indicitive but are no way the bottom line of a players worth.

 

[its game on]

Yep development does rule! (or so it should).

You asked for it, so here's my wishlist.

1. No listed afl player playing in TAC Cup, if that's developmental I'll go hee.

2.The TAC Cup POTY not necessarily be under 178cm. Umps please have a good lookaround.

3. The coach of the year to recognise and reflect the coaching efforts that year, not a long service award.

4. School footy and TAC footy working a bit closer together.

5. Closer games.

6.Top 8 to continue, as it keeps the season alive longer.

7.Gold Coast to do well.

That might do for a start!

Bumped for Boundary Boy from 24/2/09