Mega Thread The 2015 Buckley coaching megathread

[THATSGOLD]

Our 2002 team was under-rated and Malthouse was the past-master of advancing that interpretation. Of course by 2003 Matthews had Malthouse strategically absolutely nutted and the result speaks for itself.

03 GF the loss of Anthony Rocca hurt the whole game plan, tactical genius or not.
It shows how brilliant Mick was to reinvent the 04 to 06 side and get a young Thomas and Pendlebury in to a final against the Dogs and then be a kick of making the GF the following season. Matthews was doing it tough by then, obviously had the chocolates in the bag but never reinvented another team like Mick who probably did it 3 times. 02,03 06,07 10,11.

 

[THATSGOLD]

I prefer a better culture than winning flags.

You'd be swimming in s**t then.

 

[ksardog]

03 GF the loss of Anthony Rocca hurt the whole game plan, tactical genius or not.
It shows how brilliant Mick was to reinvent the 04 to 06 side and get a young Thomas and Pendlebury in to a final against the Dogs and then be a kick of making the GF the following season. Matthews was doing it tough by then, obviously had the chocolates in the bag but never reinvented another team like Mick who probably did it 3 times. 02,03 06,07 10,11.

Shhhh, dont let the facts get in the way

 

[ksardog]

Our 2002 team was under-rated and Malthouse was the past-master of advancing that interpretation. Of course by 2003 Matthews had Malthouse strategically absolutely nutted and the result speaks for itself.

Why didnt they beat us in the 2003 qualifying final if they had us 'completely nutted' . Or was it a masterplan by matthews to lose that game then hav a prelim against sydney in sydney, be behind them at 3/4 time then back to gf.
Thats some plan

 

[Old Spice]

03 GF the loss of Anthony Rocca hurt the whole game plan, tactical genius or not.
It shows how brilliant Mick was to reinvent the 04 to 06 side and get a young Thomas and Pendlebury in to a final against the Dogs and then be a kick of making the GF the following season. Matthews was doing it tough by then, obviously had the chocolates in the bag but never reinvented another team like Mick who probably did it 3 times. 02,03 06,07 10,11.

I don't know that finishing near bottom in 04 and 05 after 2 consecutive grand final appearances - which then landed us Thomas and Pendlebury - can be considered 'brilliant' strategy by your own reckoning. You never stop talking about us dropping out of contention post the consecutive 2010/2011 GFs and sheeting it home to Buckley's incompetence, yet when we dropped away under Mick to 13 and 15 post the 2002/2003 GFs, it becomes an example of Micks tactical brilliance! It's pretty astounding sophistry.

Now if you're stating the brilliance consists in Mick influencing the recruiting to pick Thomas and Pendlebury, then he gets kudos there but also must take blame for other recruiting and trading bombs so you might want to rethink that. Losing Michael was a catastrophic situation for our club given he went to Brisbane and if you're going to be consistent with the coach being omnipotent and to blame for all the clubs woes - as you seem to suggest with Buckley - then you'd have to sheet that one home to Malthouse. An epic fail if ever there was one.

On Matthews, he won our first Premiership in 32 years, a threepeat at Brisbane and a 4th consecutive GF appearance so I don't know that he had much more to prove. His win in 2001 with a young Lion's team coming up against Essendon who were an absolute behemoth at that time, is a testament to his ability.

As I've said before, coaches, no matter how good they are, cannot win premierships through sheer willpower and coaching acumen. There is gravity in footy and Buckley could not defy it after the longest stretch of finals appearances in AFL history.

 

[ksardog]

I don't know that finishing near bottom in 04 and 05 after 2 consecutive grand final appearances - which then landed us Thomas and Pendlebury - can be considered 'brilliant' strategy by your own reckoning. You never stop talking about us dropping out of contention post the consecutive 2010/2011 GFs and sheeting it home to Buckley's incompetence, yet when we dropped away under Mick to 13 and 15 post the 2002/2003 GFs, it becomes an example of Micks tactical brilliance! It's pretty astounding sophistry.

Now if you're stating the brilliance consists in Mick influencing the recruiting to pick Thomas and Pendlebury, then he gets kudos there but also must take blame for other recruiting and trading bombs so you might want to rethink that. Losing Michael was a catastrophic situation for our club given he went to Brisbane and if you're going to be consistent with the coach being omnipotent and to blame for all the clubs woes - as you seem to suggest with Buckley - then you'd have to sheet that one home to Malthouse. An epic fail if ever there was one.

On Matthews, he won our first Premiership in 32 years, a threepeat at Brisbane and a 4th consecutive GF appearance so I don't know that he had much more to prove. His win in 2001 with a young Lion's team coming up against Essendon who were an absolute behemoth at that time, is a testament to his ability.

As I've said before, coaches, no matter how good they are, cannot win premierships through sheer willpower and coaching acumen. There is gravity in footy and Buckley could not defy it after the longest stretch of finals appearances in AFL history.

How can u possibly compare the sides of 02-03 to 10-11. They are chalk and cheese. The talent of 10-11 is so far superior its not even funny.

02-03 side had buckley, burns, rocca, taz, clement, presti and a young didak , johnson and davis

10-11 side had pendles, swan, didak, cloke, reid, thomas, davis, johnson, shaw, beams, sidebottom, jolly, ball.

But the real difference is the talent of the players who made up the rest of the 22.

No way should we have fallen away so quickly

 

[THATSGOLD]

I don't know that finishing near bottom in 04 and 05 after 2 consecutive grand final appearances - which then landed us Thomas and Pendlebury - can be considered 'brilliant' strategy by your own reckoning. You never stop talking about us dropping out of contention post the consecutive 2010/2011 GFs and sheeting it home to Buckley's incompetence, yet when we dropped away under Mick to 13 and 15 post the 2002/2003 GFs, it becomes an example of Micks tactical brilliance! It's pretty astounding sophistry.

Now if you're stating the brilliance consists in Mick influencing the recruiting to pick Thomas and Pendlebury, then he gets kudos there but also must take blame for other recruiting and trading bombs so you might want to rethink that. Losing Michael was a catastrophic situation for our club given he went to Brisbane and if you're going to be consistent with the coach being omnipotent and to blame for all the clubs woes - as you seem to suggest with Buckley - then you'd have to sheet that one home to Malthouse. An epic fail if ever there was one.

On Matthews, he won our first Premiership in 32 years, a threepeat at Brisbane and a 4th consecutive GF appearance so I don't know that he had much more to prove. His win in 2001 with a young Lion's team coming up against Essendon who were an absolute behemoth at that time, is a testament to his ability.

As I've said before, coaches, no matter how good they are, cannot win premierships through sheer willpower and coaching acumen. There is gravity in footy and Buckley could not defy it after the longest stretch of finals appearances in AFL history.

Mick did what it took to get us back to the top. Putting in players for surgery early was just using the rules to our benefit.

 

[Old Spice]

How can u possibly compare the sides of 02-03 to 10-11. They are chalk and cheese. The talent of 10-11 is so far superior its not even funny.

02-03 side had buckley, burns, rocca, taz, clement, presti and a young didak , johnson and davis

10-11 side had pendles, swan, didak, cloke, reid, thomas, davis, johnson, shaw, beams, sidebottom, jolly, ball.

But the real difference is the talent of the players who made up the rest of the 22.

No way should we have fallen away so quickly

Tarrant, Rocca, N Davis, Didak, L Davis is an unbelievable forward line. Wakelin, Presti, Clement in the back-half. Buckley, Burns, Licuria in the middle. Lockyer, Obree, Fraser, Johnson, Scotland, Molloy and Lonie were pretty bloody decent filler if you ask me. Steinfort, Freeborn and McKee were maybe the weak links there. The fact is that if we won that 2002 GF the players would have been considered super. You lose and it becomes ordinary, at least that's how I would have gone about it if I was Mick so good on him for getting on the spin cycle.

 

[Old Spice]

Mick did what it took to get us back to the top. Putting in players for surgery early was just using the rules to our benefit.

So player injuries in 2003 was strategic, recent player injuries is incompetence?

 

[ksardog]

Tarrant, Rocca, N Davis, Didak, L Davis is an unbelievable forward line. Wakelin, Presti, Clement in the back-half. Buckley, Burns, Licuria in the middle. Lockyer, Obree, Fraser, Johnson, Scotland, Molloy and Lonie were pretty bloody decent filler if you ask me. Steinfort, Freeborn and McKee were maybe the weak links there. The fact is that if we won that 2002 GF the players would have been considered super. You lose and it becomes ordinary, at least that's how I would have gone about it if I was Mick so good on him for getting on the spin cycle.

Look at the ages of taz, dids and davis at the time. Rocca didnt play 2003.

 

[Old Spice]

Look at the ages of taz, dids and davis at the time. Rocca didnt play 2003.

Look at the ages of Reid, Brown and Sidebottom. Presti didn't play in 2010.

Tarrant was in his 5th year averaging 2 goals a game, Rocca was well established as was N Davis. Suffice it to say that was a potent forward line.

Leon Davis was averaging 1.4 goals a game, Didak 1.3 average.

 

[ksardog]

Look at the ages of Reid, Brown and Sidebottom. Presti didn't play in 2010.

Ok lets make a poll, which sides were better, the 2002-3 sides or the 2010-11 sides.

Put it to the people i say.

 

[Old Spice]

Ok lets make a poll, which sides were better, the 2002-3 sides or the 2010-11 sides.

go for it.

 

[ksardog]

go for it.

I dont know how to do it, nor hav the energy for it. Just a thought bubble.

 

[ksardog]

I think u know who the better side was anyway.

 

[THATSGOLD]

So player injuries in 2003 was strategic, recent player injuries is incompetence?

What don't you understand about necessary rebuilding? Buckley has been coach since 2012 it's time he took us to a GF. If he doesn't make the 8 this season it would be a fail due to the way Mick was able to rebuild us 3 times like I stated earlier. Mick was to consistently get us back up to at least compete on that final day. The coach we have now is yet to get us there.

 

[Old Spice]

What don't you understand about necessary rebuilding? Buckley has been coach since 2012 it's time he took us to a GF. If he doesn't make the 8 this season it would be a fail due to the way Mick was able to rebuild us 3 times like I stated earlier. Mick was to consistently get us back up to at least compete on that final day. The coach we have now is yet to get us there.

Mick rebuilt us three times? He inherited a fantastic list when he strarted, particularly the spine - 3 key forwards of the ilk of Rocca, Davis and Tarrant and 3 defenders of the quality of [strike] Michael [/strike] Wakelin, Prestigiacomo and Clement. Buckley, Burns, Scotland, Licuria, [strike] Pav [/strike] Fraser. So no, that's not a rebuild just an inheritance.

After we bombed out in 2004 and 2005 Mick 'rebuilt' the side. I guess dropping to the bottom for two years can be considered a rebuild, or just the footy cycle. But let's give you that as a 'rebuild'. What was the '3rd' rebuild as opposed to simple list turnover?

 

[ksardog]

Mick rebuilt us three times? He inherited a fantastic list when he strarted, particularly the spine - 3 key forwards of the ilk of Rocca, Davis and Tarrant and 3 defenders of the quality of [strike] Michael [/strike] Wakelin, Prestigiacomo and Clement. Buckley, Burns, Scotland, Licuria, [strike] Pav [/strike] Fraser. So no, that's not a rebuild just an inheritance.

After we bombed out in 2004 and 2005 Mick 'rebuilt' the side. I guess dropping to the bottom for two years can be considered a rebuild, or just the footy cycle. But let's give you that as a 'rebuild'. What was the '3rd' rebuild as opposed to simple list turnover?

Inherited a fantastic list? Oh thats right, mick took over from a fav son who never had coaching experience before he took the job
Funny how life repeats

 

[THATSGOLD]

Mick rebuilt us three times? He inherited a fantastic list when he strarted, particularly the spine - 3 key forwards of the ilk of Rocca, Davis and Tarrant and 3 defenders of the quality of [strike] Michael [/strike] Wakelin, Prestigiacomo and Clement. Buckley, Burns, Scotland, Licuria, [strike] Pav [/strike] Fraser. So no, that's not a rebuild just an inheritance.

After we bombed out in 2004 and 2005 Mick 'rebuilt' the side. I guess dropping to the bottom for two years can be considered a rebuild, or just the footy cycle. But let's give you that as a 'rebuild'. What was the '3rd' rebuild as opposed to simple list turnover?

I go could through the list he inherited and scrub 70% of it up to the 2002 GF. Because thats exactly what he did. The list Mick took over from was was quite frankly shithouse! We were on our knees on and off the field.

 

[Old Spice]

Inherited a fantastic list? Oh thats right, mick took over from a fav son who never had coaching experience before he took the job
Funny how life repeats

Don't rate it obviously. I think supporters would cream their pants today at the prospect of 3 genuine KF players like Rocca, Tarrant and N Davis or a defensive line of Presti, Wakelin and Clement. Buckley, meh, he was okay.

You don't get to GFs without a great team. I mean this idea that we somehow stumbled in there and were outshined by Brisbane is just retrospective fantasy stuff which Mick gave a good airing as a wily career coach. The Lions were not favourites to win in 2001 nor 2003. Port were the pre-eminent team in those years but couldn't come through with the goods until 2004.

 

[THATSGOLD]

I go could through the list he inherited and scrub 70% of it up to the 2002 GF. Because thats exactly what he did. The list Mick took over from was was quite frankly shithouse! We were on our knees on and off the field.

Wakelin Clement Didak Lonie Holland Molloy Steinfort all came in 01. 6 of those 7 players played in the 2002 GF. O'Bree Fraser Davis Johnson came in 2000. Micks first year. Im sure Mick had a say in players in 2000 coming anyway.

 

[ksardog]

Don't rate it obviously. I think supporters would cream their pants today at the prospect of 3 genuine KF players like Rocca, Tarrant and N Davis or a defensive line of Presti, Wakelin and Clement. Buckley, meh, he was okay.

You don't get to GFs without a great team. I mean this idea that we somehow stumbled in there and were outshined by Brisbane is just retrospective fantasy stuff which Mick gave a good airing as a wily career coach. The Lions were not favourites to win in 2001 nor 2003. Port were the pre-eminent team in those years but couldn't come through with the goods until 2004.

I never said we wernt a very good team, we got every bit of talent out of those 02-03 sides. Remember port were the dominant side but couldnt click in the finals. With an ounce of luck we would hav won 02. We won 13 games in 02 and 15 games in 03.
Our 10-11 sides finished minor premiers with 17 wins in 10 and 20 in 11. That side was far superior, and younger which is mystifying we hav fallen away like we hav.

 

[Old Spice]

I go could through the list he inherited and scrub 70% of it up to the 2002 GF. Because thats exactly what he did. The list Mick took over from was was quite frankly shithouse! We were on our knees on and off the field.

Half of the 2002 GF team Mick inherited in 1999 (11). In addition we traded out 3 best 22 players: Paul Williams, Mal Michael and Sav Rocca. Retiring greats included another 4: Brown, Crossisca, Monkhorst and Richardson (form). Add the rookies and we're talking 52% 'scrubbed' in reality over 3 years.

But let's not make excuses now given where Mick stepped in. He started from the bottom with a charmed run and enjoyed some pure plunder in the 2000 draft in securing Didak with pick 3, Clement and Holland for 8 & 39 and then ****ed that move by trading out Michael and pick 22 for Molloy. In 2001 outside of Swan that was a cluster*. Then in 2002 we have the other fat-arse wombats like Woewodin for pick 14, Nick Davis leaving for Bo Nixon. Some of the list and trade interventions he made were spun out of the purest s**t.

Let's also not forget the father-son advantage of the Clokes and Shaws as 3rd rounds. Mick inherited a very good list, scrubbed no more than most teams and had the opportunity to trade in very good players in the draft. That's kind of the point of the competition, to allow struggling teams to rise back up quickly by way of early draft picks for finishing low.

Buckley on the other hand started a/. in an 18 rather than 16 team competition b/. at the top of the ladder curve and consequently with lower picks c/. during the period of expansion clubs and therefore lower picks than usual d/. inherited a poisonous elements in the player group thanks to Mick's petulance and e/. needs the latitude that Mick was given.

Here's the 1999 team.

Damien Adkins
Craig Anderson
Rupert Betheras (2002 GF)
Gavin Brown (retired)
Nathan Buckley (2002 GF)
Scott Burns (2002 GF)
Gavin Crossisca (retired)
Scott Crow
Nick Davis (2002 GF)
Glenn Freeborn (2002 GF)
Brad Fuller
Michael Gardiner
Luke Godden
Craig Jacotine
Clinton King
Ben Kinnear
Troy Kirwen
Tyson Lane
Paul Licuria (2002 GF)
Tarkyn Lockyer (2002 GF)
Alex McDonald
Mal Michael (traded)
Damian Monkhorst (retired)
Brad Oborne
Ricky Olerenshaw
Mark Orchard
Stephen Patterson
Simon Prestigiacomo (2002 GF)
Frank Raso
Mark Richardson (form)
Anthony Rocca (2002 GF)
Sav Rocca (traded)
Andrew Schauble
Heath Scotland (2002 GF)
Jeremy Sharpen
Brad Smith
Jamie Tape
Chris Tarrant (2002 GF)
Brent Tuckey
Cameron Venables
Lee Walker
James Wasley
Shane Watson
Jason Wild
Paul Williams (traded)
Nick Wilson

 

[THATSGOLD]

Half of the 2002 GF team Mick inherited in 1999 (11). In addition we traded out 3 best 22 players: Paul Williams, Mal Michael and Sav Rocca. Retiring greats included another 4: Brown, Crossisca, Monkhorst and Richardson (form). Add the rookies and we're talking 52% 'scrubbed' in reality over 3 years.

But let's not make excuses now given where Mick stepped in. He started from the bottom with a charmed run and enjoyed some pure plunder in the 2000 draft in securing Didak with pick 3, Clement and Holland for 8 & 39 and then stuffed that move by trading out Michael and pick 22 for Molloy. In 2001 outside of Swan that was a cluster****. Then in 2002 we have the other fat-arse wombats like Woewodin for pick 14, Nick Davis leaving for Bo Nixon. Some of the list and trade interventions he made were spun out of the purest s**t.

Let's also not forget the father-son advantage of the Clokes and Shaws as 3rd rounds. Mick inherited a very good list, scrubbed no more than most teams and had the opportunity to trade in very good players in the draft. That's kind of the point of the competition, to allow struggling teams to rise back up quickly by way of early draft picks for finishing low.

Buckley on the other hand started a/. in an 18 rather than 16 team competition b/. at the top of the ladder curve and consequently with lower picks c/. during the period of expansion clubs and therefore lower picks than usual d/. inherited a poisonous elements in the player group thanks to Mick's petulance and e/. needs the latitude that Mick was given.

Here's the 1999 team.

Damien Adkins
Craig Anderson
Rupert Betheras (2002 GF)
Gavin Brown (retired)
Nathan Buckley (2002 GF)
Scott Burns (2002 GF)
Gavin Crossisca (retired)
Scott Crow
Nick Davis (2002 GF)
Glenn Freeborn (2002 GF)
Brad Fuller
Michael Gardiner
Luke Godden
Craig Jacotine
Clinton King
Ben Kinnear
Troy Kirwen
Tyson Lane
Paul Licuria (2002 GF)
Tarkyn Lockyer (2002 GF)
Alex McDonald
Mal Michael (traded)
Damian Monkhorst (retired)
Brad Oborne
Ricky Olerenshaw
Mark Orchard
Stephen Patterson
Simon Prestigiacomo (2002 GF)
Frank Raso
Mark Richardson (form)
Anthony Rocca (2002 GF)
Sav Rocca (traded)
Andrew Schauble
Heath Scotland (2002 GF)
Jeremy Sharpen
Brad Smith
Jamie Tape
Chris Tarrant (2002 GF)
Brent Tuckey
Cameron Venables
Lee Walker
James Wasley
Shane Watson
Jason Wild
Paul Williams (traded)
Nick Wilson

Thank you for supporting my argument. That list is a rabble with the exception of a few. He turned it around in 2 years. 2 YEARS from last to GF.

 

[Old Spice]

Thank you for supporting my argument. That list is a rabble with the exception of a few. He turned it around in 2 years. 2 YEARS from last to GF.

Not sure how it supports your argument when my point is Malthouse had 1/2 the 2002 GF team in 99, notably the spine, and 3 years later he'd put the rest together.

I've said for years that Essendon has a very strong spine and that it would only take 1 or 2 seasons for them to fill in the gaps. All the list building spadework had already been done when Malthouse came in.

I wanted Lever this year because I put a premium an KP stock.