The Bombers ASADA/WADA Saga

[Kojihama]

http://www.afl.com.au/news/2014-11-17/i-can-clear-players-dank

The guys a joke. If he wanted to do the right thing by the players in the first place then why not tell the truth right from the start? If it was SOOO plainly obvious it was legal then there should have been no reason to hide for 20+ months. Loser.

 

[KissKiss]

That photo looks like the dodgiest knockup attempt. Bad home made label, size of dosages doesnt match the size of the bottle, taken after the time when they realised TB4 was banned and they started supposedly forging documents.

Some of the photos in the HTB are some of the best I've seen on BF in a while

 

[Lionheart182]

That photo looks like the dodgiest knockup attempt. Bad home made label, size of dosages doesnt match the size of the bottle, taken after the time when they realised TB4 was banned and they started supposedly forging documents.

Some of the photos in the HTB are some of the best I've seen on BF in a while

Yeah it almost looks like an elaborate troll. The label might as well have been written in crayon.

 

[MacMum]

Titus O'Reilly tweeted a photo in reference to that photo...

...it said "Dean Wallace says this photo proves I didn't do it".....it was a photo of a group of people on the grassy knoll as President and Mrs JFK go past.

 

[Hollow Knight]

ASADA's case seems to be faltering as they head towards D-Day.

Really starting to suspect they're going to blow this. Such a bumbling bureaucracy.

 

[Full Wingspan]

ASADA's case seems to be faltering as they head towards D-Day.

Really starting to suspect they're going to blow this. Such a bumbling bureaucracy.

I'm still confident that its well in favour of ASADA - the media will attempt to make apparent speed humps or issues with ASADA's case (Charter withdrawing his testimony for example, despite having hours of interview footage with the pleb) appear to be far more significant than they really are.

I liken it to the hypothetical situation of someone coming up to the Lions and exclaiming "Ah ha! We have you're Polkinghorne - you're team is nothing!" Meanwhile, we replace Polks with the likes of Taylor or Aish.

 

[JasperBeardly]

ASADA's case seems to be faltering as they head towards D-Day.

Really starting to suspect they're going to blow this. Such a bumbling bureaucracy.

If that does happen, I think I'll just avoid all media for a while. I can imagine the smug look and self-righteous rubbish Hird would spew out without having to see it or read it.

 

[MacMum]

Supposedly ASADA's powers had been re-jigged a while ago. They can only make these guys turn up but can't make them answer any questions.

...From lots of talk about all this, I get the feeling the case will fail only because ASADA don't have the required authority (if that's the word) to force it through..

..and that certain people know it.

If this case fails, imo it will not mean Bombers are innocent, like a lot of people are saying, just that ASADA had their hands tied behind their backs.

 

[Skoob]

ASADA's case seems to be faltering as they head towards D-Day.

Really starting to suspect they're going to blow this. Such a bumbling bureaucracy.

The conspiracy theorist in me wouldn't be surprised to learn that this was deliberate sabotage from the ASADA management. Advising investigators not to bother with sworn/signed statements?

 

[western royboy]

I'm still confident that its well in favour of ASADA - the media will attempt to make apparent speed humps or issues with ASADA's case (Charter withdrawing his testimony for example, despite having hours of interview footage with the pleb) appear to be far more significant than they really are.

I liken it to the hypothetical situation of someone coming up to the Lions and exclaiming "Ah ha! We have you're Polkinghorne - you're team is nothing!" Meanwhile, we replace Polks with the likes of Taylor or Aish.

Charters was just on 3AW. His evidence is pretty clear. He agreed to source peptides for a range of entities that included Dank and Alavi. Included in that list was Thymosin Beta IV. He delivered them to Alavi. After that he had no further involvement.

It would appear that he has nothing to hide in regard to this matter, but is quite averse to court rooms due to other reasons and to say he does not have a lot of faith in the system would be putting it mildly.

Draw your own conclusions, but Dank is most likely the only person that can de mystify the whole situation and he's not talking.

 

[matwt73]

For what it's worth, the Commonwealth evidence act contains exceptions to the use of hearsay evidence where a witness is unavailable, assuming that the tribunal proposes to act having regard to that act, it is likely that the previous information (if any) provided by CHarters and Alavi would be admissable, the question remaining would be the weight which can be attached to it if the defendants don't have the opportunity to cross-examine the witnesses.

 

[lionbear]

My worry is that if it goes the way the media think now then Essendon have gotten away with giving the players unknown substances.

Simply drugs are the biggest issue in world sport, if they can't 100% guarantee what the players took (and Little all but confirmed that with his Mark Robinson interview last week) then the players need to have a holiday, we must show drugs in sport don't pay.

Yes they have been fined and all that, but if the club walks away from this they effectively have Hird as coach and the players ready for 3 or 4 years of finals tilt. Hardly what I call punishment.

Carlton went over on there salary cap and it's taken them years and I still feel they are not fully recovered.

I feel for the players, but if they can't 100% prove they didn't do anything illegal, the players sadly have to be caught in the crossfire.

If this finishes with Hird still coach and players free to play without innocence being proven, then AFL could be a laughing stock around the world.

 

[MacMum]

Couldn't agree more lionbear.

 

[Skoob]

My worry is that if it goes the way the media think now then Essendon have gotten away with giving the players unknown substances.

Simply drugs are the biggest issue in world sport, if they can't 100% guarantee what the players took (and Little all but confirmed that with his Mark Robinson interview last week) then the players need to have a holiday, we must show drugs in sport don't pay.

Yes they have been fined and all that, but if the club walks away from this they effectively have Hird as coach and the players ready for 3 or 4 years of finals tilt. Hardly what I call punishment.

Carlton went over on there salary cap and it's taken them years and I still feel they are not fully recovered.

I feel for the players, but if they can't 100% prove they didn't do anything illegal, the players sadly have to be caught in the crossfire.

If this finishes with Hird still coach and players free to play without innocence being proven, then AFL could be a laughing stock around the world.

I agree with much of that, but who is to blame?
Aside from obviously the club and players, the main responsibility for not acting, or getting a 'result' must be ASADA. Certainly the AFL has a share in that, but they surely act on guidance from the drug authority. Is it not ASADA who is responsible for drug use investigation and ruling on guilt? The AFL have to make their own enquiries and findings on the conduct of players and clubs which they did (probably not as well as they should) and found the club and individuals guilty of muddying the waters and poor conduct.
There was already confusion over what advice ASADA gave over use of different substances and now they could have their case thrown out because witnesses weren't held to account for statements made during their investigations. I saw it reported that 300 of 1500 statements taken were signed or of use.
As I said earlier, I don't believe this can happen by way of incompetence or oversight, something stinks and rather than the AFL being the laughing stock, ASADA has a lot to answer for.

 

[alscotoz2]

If nothing comes of this then I seriously couldn't give a *. However, the sport is forever tainted and the AFL can get ****ed with their holier than thou persona. Why should I believe their 'commitment' to stamping out sexism, homophobia, racism etc. It will all be lip service as far as I'm concerned. If Essendon are found not guilty it will be on legal technicalities...OJ Simpson and all that.

 

[Hollow Knight]

At the very least, with the amount of legal fees Essendon have racked up, the AFL can make their crawl back out of debt a very slow process.

 

[alscotoz2]

At the very least, with the amount of legal fees Essendon have racked up, the AFL can make their crawl back out of debt a very slow process.

So cash penalties to replace 'moral' penalties? Wouldn't have a problem with that necessarily. Problem is AFL have set themselves up as some paragon of virtue. Nauseating to observe ordinarily but if Essendon are let off (* the bullshit penalties the AFL handed out) then the competition cannot be taken seriously. MMFL-Mickey Mouse Football League.

 

[Football Pope]

Dunno if both Charters & Alavi not talking is going to help the Bombers.....They have nothing more to add to their evidence and interviews given to ASADA ...If it is twisted as Charters suggested then this would be the time to set the record straight.....Then again they could also have been advised that financially and health reasons...it is their best interest not to give evidence.....And if you happen to be reading this Mr Gatto, you're a top bloke and the Christmas card is in the mail......

 

[Buddy89]

Shouldn't ASADA send a Show Cause notice to.. the AFL? Aren't they ultimately responsible? Shouldn't the players sue the AFL for providing an unsafe Workplace?

Are you serious? Essendon are the ones who have bent the rules.

 

[Buddy89]

ASADA's juristiction is largely over individuals. The WADA and ASADA codes specifically state the individual is responsible for what is put in their body, full stop. Every athlete knows it especially high level athletes. Now if they've been lied to about what they are taking then that gives the leeway. However athletes can't claim that they didn't know it was illegal, technically they're required to do their own research on what they're taking.

Years ago my daughters chosen sport was swimming. She reached the level of National but even when she was at State level and below she had to each year go through a "drugs in sport lecture" and actually had to sign off for it. As her parents we had to sit in on these lectures to learn what our daughter could and couldn't take. Our daughter was drug tested at 15 years of age. At all times she was told that it was HER responsiblity to what went into her body !

Surely these AFL athletes have gone through the same thing. Its truly drilled into all athletes !! Somewhere along the lines Essendon players believed the hype that was told to them.

 

[wabaa]

Years ago my daughters chosen sport was swimming. She reached the level of National but even when she was at State level and below she had to each year go through a "drugs in sport lecture" and actually had to sign off for it. As her parents we had to sit in on these lectures to learn what our daughter could and couldn't take. Our daughter was drug tested at 15 years of age. At all times she was told that it was HER responsiblity to what went into her body !

Surely these AFL athletes have gone through the same thing. Its truly drilled into all athletes !! Somewhere along the lines Essendon players believed the hype that was told to them.

You're right - but this isn't an issue of who is responsible, this is an issue of what is taken.

To date, it seems the players actually do not know what was injected. Does this mean it was illegal? Not necessarily.

Only Dank and the medicos will know what was given to the players. If the substance is illegal, then yes, the players should be held responsible.

 

[lionbear]

To date, it seems the players actually do not know what was injected. Does this mean it was illegal? Not necessarily.

This is my problem with the whole system. What they have had injected may be legal, but if clubs can get off with only fines because ASADA can't provide evidence, what's to stop cash rich clubs/organisations building up their players with undetectable drugs, "losing" their records, coping the fines and draft picks, then two years later be ready to make a full premiership tilt.

Lets look at the result here, Guilty or not guilty it will never be 100% confirmed what they took. So if we presume they get cleared, Essendon go into 2015 with their Million Dollar coach, all their players ready to go and they get to use to their advantage the full benefits of the program.

And with the size of their membership base will more than likely be able to raise any funds they have lost through the process and get themselves back to a workable financial position.

I don't see any deterrent here.


Oh but keep away from the sports drinks or your gone.

 

[KissKiss]

You're right - but this isn't an issue of who is responsible, this is an issue of what is taken.

To date, it seems the players actually do not know what was injected. Does this mean it was illegal? Not necessarily.

Only Dank and the medicos will know what was given to the players. If the substance is illegal, then yes, the players should be held responsible.

This is my problem with the whole system. What they have had injected may be legal, but if clubs can get off with only fines because ASADA can't provide evidence, what's to stop cash rich clubs/organisations building up their players with undetectable drugs, "losing" their records, coping the fines and draft picks, then two years later be ready to make a full premiership tilt.

Lets look at the result here, Guilty or not guilty it will never be 100% confirmed what they took. So if we presume they get cleared, Essendon go into 2015 with their Million Dollar coach, all their players ready to go and they get to use to their advantage the full benefits of the program.

And with the size of their membership base will more than likely be able to raise any funds they have lost through the process and get themselves back to a workable financial position.

I don't see any deterrent here.


Oh but keep away from the sports drinks or your gone.

I thought that was meant to be part of the point of strict liability and that not knowing could be an offence as well. Thats why I don't really follow the full players are a victim line. Every athlete of various sports at a high level I've known have known better than these players that they are liable for everything.

 

[Football Pope]

Are there any precedents for WADA or a national anti-doping body suspending the bulk of an elite sports team?

I assume cycling...any others?

There's a few..Weightlifting ...not 100% sure that the Bulgarian weightlifting team were actually banned.. but they were serial pest at several consecutive Olympics with individual bans to their athletes...pretty confident that.the Chinese weight lifting team copped a ban in '97 and then, Indian Weight lifting team copped a 12 month ban '04..

The Chineses swim team were banned for a short time after the Asian games but were able to compete at the Atlanta Olympics..



My personal favorite was the year ban to the Russian rowing team officials and 2 years to the rowers in '08....that year turned out to be a pretty bad time for the Russians as 7 of the womans track & field team also copped a ban..the comrade responsible for the choice and use of masking agents is spending a long well earned rest in Siberia.

5 Nth Korea women's soccer team were suspended by FIFA in 2011

 

[Nuggo]

FIFA, now there is an above board organisation.