The Bombers ASADA/WADA Saga

[MSB ROYS]

I thought the peptides were undetectable under all known tests previously. They must have new tests and obviously that's why they keep the samples for such a long time

I would say that they have validated the method during this time. Detecting thymosin beta 4 would be straight forward using proteomics techniques (routinely used in science to study proteins and large peptides).

 

[luthor]

Just about lost all respect for Robbo.

Comes across as a knockabout good bloke but that doesn't disguise the blatant bias in nearly all his commentary.

Finally, what looks like some real evidence surfaces in the Bombers/ASADA saga. What does Robbo do?

Of course........... run interference (again) for Essendon with an irrelevancy.

BOOOO!!!!

 

[maroon and blue]

WADA have found something and make a conclusion but they don't have a clue what it means. Bad science. Meanwhile at the Olympics... Eurotrash.

 

[Hollow Knight]

WADA have found something and make a conclusion but they don't have a clue what it means.

Says Xavier Campbell.

*snort*

 

[maroon and blue]

Says Xavier Campbell.

*snort*

Well do you, double snort back at ya.

 

[Hollow Knight]

Well do you

No. I find it odd that you feel qualified to comments on the science being "bad" when there is absolutely no information out there to make such a judgement either way.

 

[Ironmonger]

I'm not sure about the significance of this latest news.

My understanding is that there's no normal level of TB4, that it's different for everyone, so what constitutes 'abnormally high' levels? Possibly if you're sampling thirty-odd people's TB4 levels, you would expect that one or two of them are 'abnormally high'.

It seems that throughout this mess every time there's been a leak, or a new bit of information, it turns out to be less significant than it appeared at first. So I'll reserve judgement.

 

[MSB ROYS]

I'm not sure about the significance of this latest news.

My understanding is that there's no normal level of TB4, that it's different for everyone, so what constitutes 'abnormally high' levels? Possibly if you're sampling thirty-odd people's TB4 levels, you would expect that one or two of them are 'abnormally high'.

It seems that throughout this mess every time there's been a leak, or a new bit of information, it turns out to be less significant than it appeared at first. So I'll reserve judgement.

You would need to get multiple samples from the same people and then see a spike in levels that corresponded to the time that the alleged injections had occurred.

*Warning I am going to get technical* The LC-MS/MS instruments used to detect these peptides, their metabolites and trypanized products that can collect untargeted data have only been around for the last 5 years. Prior to these instruments, most methods looked for specific compounds only in targeted analyses. Other compounds could be detected by not at the low abundance available today.
Bottom line is that samples analysed today can be retrospectively analysed for prohibited compounds and metabolites even if they are not known today.

 

[Grizzly86]

*Warning I am going to get technical* The LC-MS/MS instruments used to detect these peptides, their metabolites and trypanized products that can collect untargeted data have only been around for the last 5 years. Prior to these instruments, most methods looked for specific compounds only in targeted analyses. Other compounds could be detected by not at the low abundance available today.
Bottom line is that samples analysed today can be retrospectively analysed for prohibited compounds and metabolites even if they are not known today.

Yes...

 

[Ironmonger]

You would need to get multiple samples from the same people and then see a spike in levels that corresponded to the time that the alleged injections had occurred.

*Warning I am going to get technical* The LC-MS/MS instruments used to detect these peptides, their metabolites and trypanized products that can collect untargeted data have only been around for the last 5 years. Prior to these instruments, most methods looked for specific compounds only in targeted analyses. Other compounds could be detected by not at the low abundance available today.
Bottom line is that samples analysed today can be retrospectively analysed for prohibited compounds and metabolites even if they are not known today.

So the level of TB4 should be constant over time, but we can tell if it changes and that suggests it's been administered externally?

 

[MSB ROYS]

So the level of TB4 should be constant over time, but we can tell if it changes and that suggests it's been administered externally?

Yes, there is an endogenous amount TB4, which would naturally vary in a defined range for each person. They would be looking for elevated amounts of TB4 that would be statistically significant compared to their base line levels. I.e. in large amounts way over what is normally present.

 

[Lionheart182]

Yes, there is an endogenous amount TB4, which would naturally vary in a defined range for each person. They would be looking for elevated amounts of TB4 that would be statistically significant compared to their base line levels. I.e. in large amounts way over what is normally present.

This is precisely why this is potentially huge news. Won't know until the specifics come out but could be a game changer.

 

[Football Pope]

I'm not sure about the significance of this latest news.

My understanding is that there's no normal level of TB4, that it's different for everyone, so what constitutes 'abnormally high' levels? Possibly if you're sampling thirty-odd people's TB4 levels, you would expect that one or two of them are 'abnormally high'.

It seems that throughout this mess every time there's been a leak, or a new bit of information, it turns out to be less significant than it appeared at first. So I'll reserve judgement.

Since 1990 ASADA have taken mandatory urine & blood tests of all first time afl-listed players, promoted rookies and the top 3 players in any clubs Best and Fairest awards and all-Australians. The "abnormally high level" would be a random match day sample compared against those original samples.

 

[MacMum]

Chip Le Grand was interviewed on SEN the other night when this story broke.....In laymans terms, he said it was like the Cobalt issue with the horses......there are natural levels, then too high unnatural levels.

He also said with so many of the players being tested, it was hard to catch "the very small window" of high levels, and that they were lucky to get the two results they did.

 

[Fatcat08]

Geez reading some of those transcripts exerts from the herald sun on the bombers hearing, I'm not sure to feel sorry for the players or wonder how stupid you have to be to follow something so haphazard. Regardless I don't see how Hird or anyone involved could possibly still be allowed to stay at the club. This coming out may be the end for him.

 

[Mayestro]

I wonder if this is Kerr also being thrown under the bus, or he's leaving of his own accord?

Then Kevin Sheedy was hired on a two-year $500,000 contract to be a club ambassador in what can only be described as a blatant public relations exercise. And now comes a club football review which was announced late last week with little to no input from football department bosses Neil Craig and Rob Kerr and little to no detail except that the popular and respected Daniher would be one external voice.

Kerr reportedly only became aware of the review shortly before it was announced. Neither he nor Craig are expected to remain next season. Essendon chief executive, Xavier Campbell, only guaranteed one position in the review and that was Hird's.

Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-ne...-continues-20150810-givmd2.html#ixzz3iOEiS27d
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[Viceregal]

Interesting logic here quoted from the transcript ...
515. Reference has been made to Mr Xu’s statement to the ASADA investigator about GL

Biochem. The Tribunal has accepted his statement that he supplied TB4 to Mr

Charter. However, the statement about the company is self-serving. Mr Xu is

responding to an investigator about the supply of substances by his company, which

are the subject of an investigation. In these circumstances, it can be expected that Mr

Xu would wish to portray his company in a favourable light. In the Tribunal’s view,


little weight can be attached to his statement about the company and his assertion that


what in fact was supplied was TB4.
516. Further, if there was a certificate of analysis of the TB4 purportedly supplied, it might

be expected that Mr Xu would refer to it in his discussion with the journalist and the

investigator. It is something of significance. He did not produce any documents to

ASADA and told the investigator he had provided all the documents that his company

still had on hand to the journalist. However, no reference is made to a certificate in


the newspaper article. Having regard to the purpose of the article, it can be inferred


from this that no certificate was supplied to the journalist by Mr Xu, which tends to


support a conclusion that there was no such certificate.

I find that astonishing, because there is no mention of a certificate in a newspaper article it can be inferred it does not exist . I also don't get the reason why little weight should be placed in his statements as they are self serving. In what world are they self serving , he is facing no consequences for the answers he gives

Bolding and emphasis etc from source poster and me on phone so cannot change ...

 

[PattyKwasagun]

Wonder if Kerr could replace Warren? Seemed a really good operator during his time up here.

 

[MacMum]

Geez reading some of those transcripts exerts from the herald sun on the bombers hearing, I'm not sure to feel sorry for the players or wonder how stupid you have to be to follow something so haphazard. Regardless I don't see how Hird or anyone involved could possibly still be allowed to stay at the club. This coming out may be the end for him.

I'm glad that story was "leaked" for everyone to see exactly what was going on.

It was absolutely horrific.......and to think Hird is still there!

The AFL were quick to suspend Saad and these two Collingwood boys today, but by god the whole lot of the Essendon players should be suspended and the club's license taken away for a season at least imo......but I guess that would put it in the too hard basket.

I feel for the players on the one hand, but the sheer stupidity of allowing themselves to be used in such a way is mind boggling.....If this happened to another countries team/Olympic team, we would be screaming for their disqualifaction...

People can be critical of the leaks etc, the AFL, who after reading all this today, have handled it appallingly.....but the bottom line still remains back on Essendon and what they did and the consequences and ramifications of those actions.

If the leaks hadn't happened, we would be none the wiser. I'm glad they did.

...and until Hird is gone, it will not go away. He should also be banned for life from any football clubs.

 

[POBT]

Wonder if Kerr could replace Warren? Seemed a really good operator during his time up here.

Was he? Genuine question. I know he did some good things but was his record good enough that we'd not only chase him to come back but also promote him to a more senior role than he had here before? It isn't as though his body of work at Essendon is particularly impressive, albeit that he was obviously handed a s**t sandwich when he arrived.

 

[jackess]

Wonder if Kerr could replace Warren? Seemed a really good operator during his time up here.

There was that rumour of Leppa only getting a page of notes on our recent recruits or something like that.

 

[Skoob]

Was he? Genuine question. I know he did some good things but was his record good enough that we'd not only chase him to come back but also promote him to a more senior role than he had here before? It isn't as though his body of work at Essendon is particularly impressive, albeit that he was obviously handed a s**t sandwich when he arrived.

Yes, I'm more inclined to wonder whether Essendon spotted his shortcomings and act on them quicker than than the Lions did. Not sure that going backwards is the way forward.

 

[Eons]

There was that rumour of Leppa only getting a page of notes on our recent recruits or something like that.

It was all on LionsTV, probably wrote down the link for Leppa.

 

[PattyKwasagun]

Was he? Genuine question. I know he did some good things but was his record good enough that we'd not only chase him to come back but also promote him to a more senior role than he had here before? It isn't as though his body of work at Essendon is particularly impressive, albeit that he was obviously handed a s**t sandwich when he arrived.

That's true, but I think in football there's often a tendency to paint everyone with the same brush from a club - everyone from a club doing poorly is bad, everyone from a club doing well is good. It's easy to understand how those assumptions are made but I don't think it's particularly fair. Not saying that's what you're doing though, of course - and as for working at Essendon, I think everyone would struggle in that position. Bomber Thompson struggled there and I wouldn't rate many higher than him.

But you're right, it is hard to know how well he did during his time with the Lions. I do think the work he did in 2013 getting something for all the departing players has set us up for the long term though, and regardless of whether he did anything else very well or is a good operator I think he'll likely always have a good legacy for that.

 

[Always a Lion]

"At those levels it's the same as being a full-on meth addict," said Chick, who was allowed to take the drug along with Cousins and Kerr because they were all asthmatic.

"I couldn't even sit still on the bench," he said. "It smashes your system. I've since read a lot about it, we didn't know what was done to us. You feel bulletproof basically.

"I started taking the 20mgs and 5mgs tablets on game day but then it escalated up to 40 to 50mgs quickly.

"The lack of sleep, the depression, it affects your mental health, coping mechanisms, metabolic rates and causes memory loss and sleep issues. It's not a coincidence the three of us have had issues with substance abuse."

Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-ne...ug-culture-20150930-gjykam.html#ixzz3nGey6VFM

Is it not curious that the Bombers front runner to replace Hird is Worsfold?