Food/Supplements The bulk + cut thread

[tige19]

PS. I do not subscribe to the Bulking and Cutting diets, IMO it's a load of crap. Training and health is a lifestyle, there is no off season bulk. If you want to lose body fat adjust your diet a bit and train differently ( more cardio based sessions, HIT training and lower weights/higher reps), the opposite to put on weight.

It's worked for me, I went from 78kgs 12 weeks ago and now sit at 88kgs, I wouldn't ever say I'm cutting but dropping a few kgs wouldn't hurt me.

 

[lysp]

PS. I do not subscribe to the Bulking and Cutting diets, IMO it's a load of crap. Training and health is a lifestyle, there is no off season bulk. If you want to lose body fat adjust your diet a bit and train differently ( more cardio based sessions, HIT training and lower weights/higher reps), the opposite to put on weight.

It's worked for me, I went from 78kgs 12 weeks ago and now sit at 88kgs, I wouldn't ever say I'm cutting but dropping a few kgs wouldn't hurt me.

The difference is going in cycles will allow you to gain more muscle mass (in a set time period).

Doing a "slow bulk" will keep you fairly lean, but if you can gain double the amount of muscle by bulking and then spend 8-12 weeks on a cutting phase then it's often a better way of going (depending on your goals).

 

[ablett]

For starters bulking then cutting was debunked years ago, well from people in the know it was, probably not for a lot of you that read Ironmag or Muscle & Fitness!

Why put on ten kilo of fluid weight & look n feel terrible to then go thru the riggers of cutting to loose it & maybe hold an extra kilo of muscle when you could've put a kilo of lean muscle doing what you were already doing?

All it does is stuff your hormones & thyroid.
Cutting/ low cal diets are bad for you in the long run.

Eat for maintenance or energy requirements.
Eat a bit more if wanting to grow.
Exercise more if your wanting to loose weight with maybe one or two lower cal days.

Bulking then cutting is bro science at its best!

 

[FlowersByIrene]

Ablett - has this perception that peoples goals in life are to be healthy, preaches a rediculous diet to obtain "healthiness". A diet that realistically, for the cost of products (all unique healthfoods are rediculously expensive because of lower demand), and effort put into it, would give minimal advantages in health. It's simply not worth it.
Then you come out and claim that cutting and bulking is brosicence, now I'm calling you out on this because its simply not true. You are so arrogant in your preaching of your way of lifr that you think that people's main focus is to be healthy and to have a decent physique to goo along with that. And for that purpose, yes a "lean bulk" (which is a bullshit term because a calorie is a calorie, there is no such thing as a lean bulk, a lean bulk is where someone doesnt have the dedication to eat enough or excercises too much and they just meander along somedays in a surplus somedays negative somedays at maintenance which reuslts in SLOW muscles gain? Or as some call it a "lean bulk") but yes a "lean bulk" will leave you with a "healthy looking" phsyique over time that wont turn heads and will garner reactions such as "wow you keep fit". But bulking is entirely neccesary for people who don't want to waste years and years going up by a kilogram this year or a pound the next. By bulking, and bulking hard for a long time, you are basically giving your body the best chance to build muscle. You are providing your body enough energy to not only get stronger which will help you get bigger but enough energy to force your body to grow. It will gain fat as well, that is natural as you are in a constant surplus, but you will be building muscle as well, more so than just eating healthy as you preach.
The fact of the matter is every bodybuilder on the planet bulks and cuts, because it works, because they dont want to wait 8 years to have a physique that due to the steroid induced fitness industry appears mediocre.

I don't know how many people in this thread are going for the "healthy look" but anyone talking about bulking and cutting is either going for something a lot better than that, or they don't know what theyre talking about.
I'm fine for you to preach your "health" to those that are searching for it, but don't project that onto people with different goals.

 

[ablett]

Ablett - has this perception that peoples goals in life are to be healthy, preaches a rediculous diet to obtain "healthiness". A diet that realistically, for the cost of products (all unique healthfoods are rediculously expensive because of lower demand), and effort put into it, would give minimal advantages in health. It's simply not worth it.
Then you come out and claim that cutting and bulking is brosicence, now I'm calling you out on this because its simply not true. You are so arrogant in your preaching of your way of lifr that you think that people's main focus is to be healthy and to have a decent physique to goo along with that. And for that purpose, yes a "lean bulk" (which is a bullshit term because a calorie is a calorie, there is no such thing as a lean bulk, a lean bulk is where someone doesnt have the dedication to eat enough or excercises too much and they just meander along somedays in a surplus somedays negative somedays at maintenance which reuslts in SLOW muscles gain? Or as some call it a "lean bulk") but yes a "lean bulk" will leave you with a "healthy looking" phsyique over time that wont turn heads and will garner reactions such as "wow you keep fit". But bulking is entirely neccesary for people who don't want to waste years and years going up by a kilogram this year or a pound the next. By bulking, and bulking hard for a long time, you are basically giving your body the best chance to build muscle. You are providing your body enough energy to not only get stronger which will help you get bigger but enough energy to force your body to grow. It will gain fat as well, that is natural as you are in a constant surplus, but you will be building muscle as well, more so than just eating healthy as you preach.
The fact of the matter is every bodybuilder on the planet bulks and cuts, because it works, because they dont want to wait 8 years to have a physique that due to the steroid induced fitness industry appears mediocre.

I don't know how many people in this thread are going for the "healthy look" but anyone talking about bulking and cutting is either going for something a lot better than that, or they don't know what theyre talking about.
I'm fine for you to preach your "health" to those that are searching for it, but don't project that onto people with different goals.

Do you read what you post?
This is a diet & nutrition thread, its not a McDonalds forum & I'm preaching the members to switch to salad.

Correct, not everyone wants to be healthy or look good but then I suspect they wouldn't be involved in threads like this mixing with people that aspire to improve their health through diet practises & exercise.

I never referred to , Lean Bulk, you either build lean muscle mass or bulk body size.
Only copious amounts of illegal substances will allow you to build noticeable larger body mass that is lean muscle.

Your out of touch with your comment of, Every body builder on the planet bulks n cuts, I speak to pro body builders regularly & none of them or their peers do the traditional bulking phase then cutting phase.
In fact they haven't so since the 90's, they realised that cardio n low calorie protocols burns too much hard earned muscle, plus with the new era of substances they have access to the can build consistent amounts of lean muscle all year round without having to bulk n cut.
Also to for fill the demands of their sponsors, they are on the road a lot doing supplement expo's, seminars etc...
This doesn't allow them to let go of their ripped lean muscular appearance to go thru the traditional bulking phase,
a big fat puffy body builder isn't going to be a good endorsement for supplements to the general consumer.
And pro body builders need sponsorship from supplements companies to fund their substance habit.

 

[FlowersByIrene]

Do you read what you post?
This is a diet & nutrition thread, its not a McDonalds forum & I'm preaching the members to switch to salad.

Correct, not everyone wants to be healthy or look good but then I suspect they wouldn't be involved in threads like this mixing with people that aspire to improve their health through diet practises & exercise.

I never referred to , Lean Bulk, you either build lean muscle mass or bulk body size.
Only copious amounts of illegal substances will allow you to build noticeable larger body mass that is lean muscle.

Your out of touch with your comment of, Every body builder on the planet bulks n cuts, I speak to pro body builders regularly & none of them or their peers do the traditional bulking phase then cutting phase.
In fact they haven't so since the 90's, they realised that cardio n low calorie protocols burns too much hard earned muscle, plus with the new era of substances they have access to the can build consistent amounts of lean muscle all year round without having to bulk n cut.
Also to for fill the demands of their sponsors, they are on the road a lot doing supplement expo's, seminars etc...
This doesn't allow them to let go of their ripped lean muscular appearance to go thru the traditional bulking phase,
a big fat puffy body builder isn't going to be a good endorsement for supplements to the general consumer.
And pro body builders need sponsorship from supplements companies to fund their substance habit.

I'm happy for you to tell people about how to be healthy, you probably do know a little on the subject. My point was don't using sweeping generalisations to knock down topics you don't understand. Basically I took offence at you discrediting bulking/cutting when you don't know what youre talking about.

And in regards to the rest of your post, how do you think bodybuilders got to be that big where they can maintain their image for their sponsors. I can guarantee you they bulked and they bulked hard. Their bodies are not achieveable without massive caloric intakes. They may maintain and do less cuts and bulks when they have reached their pinnacle but they certainly bulked to get their. And they certainly cut for any show they go to or any photo shoot.

 

[ablett]

I'm happy for you to tell people about how to be healthy, you probably do know a little on the subject. My point was don't using sweeping generalisations to knock down topics you don't understand. Basically I took offence at you discrediting bulking/cutting when you don't know what youre talking about.

And in regards to the rest of your post, how do you think bodybuilders got to be that big where they can maintain their image for their sponsors. I can guarantee you they bulked and they bulked hard. Their bodies are not achieveable without massive caloric intakes. They may maintain and do less cuts and bulks when they have reached their pinnacle but they certainly bulked to get their. And they certainly cut for any show they go to or any photo shoot.

Of course they bulked to get there but once they develop a certain size it's more about condition than bulking n cutting.
As I explained in previous post, due to their hectic scheduling from Shows, expos & seminars etc... They need to stay in shape all year round hence don't need to cut much before getting on stage.


Bulking n cutting doesn't exist amongst pro's , only out of date bros still do it that go to gym to get huuuuuge brah!

I can't stop you bulking then cutting, nor am I advising you too, I'm only suggested that its out dated & there's other ways to achieve the same result that is a healthier option.

And don't give me this crap it's too expensive to healthy, that's every junk food obsessive persons excuse to justify their lack of discipline & control of food choices & consumption amounts.

My diet/eating plan would be less expensive than yours & cos I'm healthy I save on doctor bills & drugs from the chemist.

 

[ablett]

He's not though, he's taking pot shots at things he doesnt understand. A poster asked what cutting was. It was explained. He then jumps in posting something that is blantantly not true. And I pulled him up on that.

So as I said, he can continue to talk about diet and nutrition, he should howver not comment on things that he doesnt understand.


Also the thread is "Diet and Nutrion" not "how to be healthy the lifestyle of ablett" I dont believe it is entirely constricted to "good" diets or "good" nutrition.

People should be able to come in, post their goals and have it to explained to them what diet suits best for them because there is not one single answer.

So if someone comes in and posts oh I'm looking to gain muscle, as many do, a "healthy" doet is not necessarily the best way to avhieve that goal

If I recall I advised him on another meal option opposed to his late night cereal binge, which he requested for help in this matter.
When did I knock him about cutting?

 

[FlowersByIrene]

If I recall I advised him on another meal option opposed to his late night cereal binge, which he requested for help in this matter.
When did I knock him about cutting?

I didnt say you knocked him for cutting.
I said
Bulking and cutting was raised and you said "bulking and cutting is broscience" which is simply not true.

 

[FlowersByIrene]

Of course they bulked to get there but once they develop a certain size it's more about condition than bulking n cutting.
As I explained in previous post, due to their hectic scheduling from Shows, expos & seminars etc... They need to stay in shape all year round hence don't need to cut much before getting on stage.


Bulking n cutting doesn't exist amongst pro's , only out of date bros still do it that go to gym to get huuuuuge brah!

I can't stop you bulking then cutting, nor am I advising you too, I'm only suggested that its out dated & there's other ways to achieve the same result that is a healthier option.

And don't give me this crap it's too expensive to healthy, that's every junk food obsessive persons excuse to justify their lack of discipline & control of food choices & consumption amounts.

My diet/eating plan would be less expensive than yours & cos I'm healthy I save on doctor bills & drugs from the chemist.

I'm not talking about maccas and such - thats a luxury I afford to myself.

I'm talking about.

Coconut oil over regular oil because its "carcinogenic"
Coconut water over gatorade because gatorade is all "artificial" and just sugar. Coconut water is like 8 dollars a litre!
Unpasturized milk over the "store bought" milk because its not good enough - now ive never bought anything besides regular milk but I'm guessing its more expensive.

 

[tige19]

I train with some big boys, I spend time with guys that compete at a national level at multiple gyms across melb ( derimutt, bell st, revs, Doherty) and I can say without any hesitation that the days of total bulks and huge cuts are gone. For guys that are genuinely after the aesthetic look there is no offseason. Diets and calorie consumption should be adjusted of course but generally the process remains fairly typical throughout the year.

What I've found more common over the the last 10 years training is the use of illegal steroids to garner a specific look. If a guy wants to put on kgs quickly and gain size they do so buy running say a test eth/deca cycle for 8 weeks and have surplus cals. Similar if you want to cut, you run some stana for 6 weeks and finish off with clen for 2 on a calorie deficient diet. It's sad that in today's climate 80% of guys in the gym with a physique get it by a means that is illegal.

 

[FlowersByIrene]

Firstly on the topic of bulking and cutting.
It doesnt necessarily "wreak havoc" with your digestive system as such.
Bulking and cutting is simply being 500 calories over or 500 calories under your maintenance. Because it has been found that aroudn 3500 calories below maintenance a week especially cutting will reuslt in around 1 kg lost a week, and im not sure if you would gian a kilogram a week, but the principal is the same.

Cutting should not be associated with "extreme" low calorie diets which yes I agree would hurt your body, I'm currently cutting on 2800 calories, probably more than some of you eat in a day.

And bulking should not be associated with "extreme" high calorie diets, sure you can eat 5000 calories a day and smash as much fast food as you want, some people do that, but you can also still jist eat an extra bowl of chicken and rice a day and be 500 calories over maintenance and bulk.

The terms are not as polarised as some are making them out to be

 

[lysp]

Bulking/cutting is what works best for me and has for many years.

It's easy to put someone (who cycles food) into the stereotype of bodybuilder/bro/roid user as a single umbrella but i think that is a poor argument. As is saying someone who is cutting is bad for you.

My prime focus is strength. Best way to add strength is to add size. So i bulk for 6-8 months of the year, then cut/lean up for 3-4 months. Maintain for 1-2 months.

When i'm bulking i eat generally healthy, but if i want to go out for a restaurant meal i will. If i want to have dessert or eat icecream i will. If i cbf cooking and want to order a pizza or cook oven baked food i will. This fits well with my lifestyle as i don't want to be on a permanent 365 day (slow/lean bulk) diet. Also doesn't fit into your stereotype of a eat everything in sight diet. It's easy to dismiss argument when using the absolute upper extreme as part of your argument.

While i'm bulking my strength goes through the roof. I get weekly progression on all my lifts or at worst every second week.

When i cut i dont cut back my calories to stupid/unhealthy levels. I'll start at 2700-2800 calories at the start of my cut and slowly drop it back down to 2000 near the end. Might go for a couple of weeks very low, but use this very sparingly. As long as my weights stay the same level and i'm dropping weight then i'm happy my cut is going well.

I'll put on 10-11kg, then drop 6-7kg. Every year i end up with 3-4kg more mass (dexa tested) and don't see it really stopping. And my body fat levels stay between the 8-13% mark.

Currently my pb's (at 87kg) are:
6 x 162kg squat
3 x 120kg bench
5 x 80kg strict press
3 x 200kg dead.

These aren't great, but not really crap either. And are higher than most of the people at my gym (including those who use). Still have plenty to go though.

During my last bulk however, i put 30kg on my squat pb, 20kg on my dead pb and 15kg on my bench pb.

I take offence to this being bro-science as it has worked for me and it's worked well and suits my lifestyle.

My strength is going up every year. I'm gaining more muscle mass every year. So what's wrong with that?

As long as my goals are met: (Strength first, staying reasonably lean second, not being a slave to a never ending strict diet and keeping a reasonable level of cardio fitness), then i'm happy. It works for me and no reason why it wont work for others and also no reason why anyone else shouldnt follow it either.

 

[Poetic Justice]

Discuss your theories and stories about bulking + cutting experiences.

I'm personally not really at the level yet.. I've been on a massive 'cut' as I'm trying to lose weight this year (almost 20kgs down since February.)

Would love to get to a stage where I needed to think about this seriously though. Hopefully in the next few months that will become the case.

 

[Poetic Justice]

http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/the-bulk-cut-thread.1031456/

Best not to further 'derail' the thread.. so if you want to discuss that, head over there

 

[Jab]

New thread created and posts move. Go nuts

 

[ablett]

I'm not talking about maccas and such - thats a luxury I afford to myself.

I'm talking about.

Coconut oil over regular oil because its "carcinogenic"
Coconut water over gatorade because gatorade is all "artificial" and just sugar. Coconut water is like 8 dollars a litre!
Unpasturized milk over the "store bought" milk because its not good enough - now ive never bought anything besides regular milk but I'm guessing its more expensive.

If Maccas is a luxury then I'd hate to know what you call junk food.

Life is about choices , you chose what ever you want to eat & pay the consequences later.
Food you eat might not have a bad impact now but it will eventually.
I post tips/suggestion on here for people interested in improving the health n well being , take them as you wish.
If you want to live a common existence then that's your choice.
Its common to cook in vegetable oil,
Its common to drink super market milk,
It's common to eat caged eggs,
It's common to drink powerade or Gatorade,
It's common to eat bread,
Its common to drink alcohol,
It's common to get cancer, ever wander why?


The traditionl bulk n Cut as used by body builders in the past was, in their off season they would eat as many calories daily as possible until the reached their weight , then would would restrict their cals by x amount a week leading up to their next comp.
I wouldn't associate the term Bulking when only increasing your daily cals by 500.

 

[FlowersByIrene]

If Maccas is a luxury then I'd hate to know what you call junk food.

Life is about choices , you chose what ever you want to eat & pay the consequences later.
Food you eat might not have a bad impact now but it will eventually.
I post tips/suggestion on here for people interested in improving the health n well being , take them as you wish.
If you want to live a common existence then that's your choice.
Its common to cook in vegetable oil,
Its common to drink super market milk,
It's common to eat caged eggs,
It's common to drink powerade or Gatorade,
It's common to eat bread,
Its common to drink alcohol,
It's common to get cancer, ever wander why?


The traditionl bulk n Cut as used by body builders in the past was, in their off season they would eat as many calories daily as possible until the reached their weight , then would would restrict their cals by x amount a week leading up to their next comp.
I wouldn't associate the term Bulking when only increasing your daily cals by 500.

Re:Bolded - then you clearly haven't read a bodybuilding article or been on a bodybuilding forum in recent time then.

I just don't think the positives outweigh the negatives in terms of not eating "common" foods.

More expensive, less accessible, certainly less fun, for what? I guess I just don't put as much stock in my 70's 80's and 90's as you, maybe you like Bingo more than i do, and I don't think it's being naive to put that stuff off until the future and enjoy youth whilst you can. With the expansion of modern medicine in the past century I cannot imagine where we will be in 50 years time, and so I'll let that play otu when the time is right. As for now, i'll happily follow a common diet, because I am an un-common person, and I make up for it in other ways

 

[ablett]

Re:Bolded - then you clearly haven't read a bodybuilding article or been on a bodybuilding forum in recent time then.

I just don't think the positives outweigh the negatives in terms of not eating "common" foods.

More expensive, less accessible, certainly less fun, for what? I guess I just don't put as much stock in my 70's 80's and 90's as you, maybe you like Bingo more than i do, and I don't think it's being naive to put that stuff off until the future and enjoy youth whilst you can. With the expansion of modern medicine in the past century I cannot imagine where we will be in 50 years time, and so I'll let that play otu when the time is right. As for now, i'll happily follow a common diet, because I am an un-common person, and I make up for it in other ways

I haven't visited a main stream bodybuilding site for years due to all the out of date bro-science that influence people like yourself, I do my own research & don't rely on others information.
Most bodybuilding sites are full of steroid users so their diets & results are misleading.
You keep mentioning that less common foods, which I'm sure your alluding to organic or alike, are more expensive so it's no practical for you to consume them.
Poor excuse, ever thought of earning more money?
Infact A good diet is less expensive than a poor diet, unless you hardly eat, so that's a cop out to justify eating junk food.

 

[FlowersByIrene]

I haven't visited a main stream bodybuilding site for years due to all the out of date bro-science that influence people like yourself, I do my own research & don't rely on others information.
Most bodybuilding sites are full of steroid users so their diets & results are misleading.
You keep mentioning that less common foods, which I'm sure your alluding to organic or alike, are more expensive so it's no practical for you to consume them.
Poor excuse, ever thought of earning more money?
Infact A good diet is less expensive than a poor diet, unless you hardly eat, so that's a cop out to justify eating junk food.

I'm a Law Student living at home, working at target, the majority of my money goes to Petrol, Gym memberships and food.
Maybe when I am a lawyer I can add some over priced organic food to my diet, but it's not in my plans at the moment.

 

[Jab]

I'm a Law Student living at home, working at target, the majority of my money goes to Petrol, Gym memberships and food.
Maybe when I am a lawyer I can add some over priced organic food to my diet, but it's not in my plans at the moment.

I'll say straight up that money at this point in my life isn't a huge concern of mine, but I set myself financial challenges for my own entertainment. Again, I'm repeatedly told that I'm not normal.

You can buy fresh food cheaper than fast food if you cook things yourself and put them in the fridge. I know what you're saying about the cost of premium foods, but it can be done if you're prepared to invest the time and research. A footlong subway and a drink can be $13 or more, and a large meal from other chains is $10 or more. If you times that by 2 (lunch and dinner), you can eat quite well for that amount.

Just a side point to that, I'm my days of doing it a little tougher, I grew tomatoes, beans and the like from empty cans and bottles. It's not 100% free, but it's not expensive.

 

[ablett]

I'm a Law Student living at home, working at target, the majority of my money goes to Petrol, Gym memberships and food.
Maybe when I am a lawyer I can add some over priced organic food to my diet, but it's not in my plans at the moment.

Good luck with your studies, If I had my time over again I would've done Law, I find it very interesting.
It doesn't have to be organic, in fact most organic food offers no more nutrients than non organic food just less/ no chemicals.
And I would argue junk food is overpriced considering the lack of health value you get for your dollar.
How much is a Big Mac, $5-?
I can get half a kilo of grass fed beef mince for that, maybe not as tasty as a Big Mac but the mince doesn't cause you to feel McCrap soon after eating it!

 

[ablett]

I'll say straight up that money at this point in my life isn't a huge concern of mine, but I set myself financial challenges for my own entertainment. Again, I'm repeatedly told that I'm not normal.

You can buy fresh food cheaper than fast food if you cook things yourself and put them in the fridge. I know what you're saying about the cost of premium foods, but it can be done if you're prepared to invest the time and research. A footlong subway and a drink can be $13 or more, and a large meal from other chains is $10 or more. If you times that by 2 (lunch and dinner), you can eat quite well for that amount.

Just a side point to that, I'm my days of doing it a little tougher, I grew tomatoes, beans and the like from empty cans and bottles. It's not 100% free, but it's not expensive.

See Jab, You adjusted according to your circumstances with out your health suffering instead of opting for the easy & common choice of resolving to junk food, excuses are always made before sacrifices unfortunately.

 

[FlowersByIrene]

Good luck with your studies, If I had my time over again I would've done Law, I find it very interesting.
It doesn't have to be organic, in fact most organic food offers no more nutrients than non organic food just less/ no chemicals.
And I would argue junk food is overpriced considering the lack of health value you get for your dollar.
How much is a Big Mac, $5-?
I can get half a kilo of grass fed beef mince for that, maybe not as tasty as a Big Mac but the mince doesn't cause you to feel McCrap soon after eating it!

Thankyou, my studies are going well.
I may not have made this clear, but i'm currently not eating that much junk food, I was eating quite a lot through winter when I was on my first ever bulk (formerly obese kid, lost 42 kilos, little bit of muscle, but not enough for me) so I bulked pretty hard, gained 17 kilos, but I feel a lot has been muscle, it was a combination of 2 things, 1. the fat kid in me being unleashed and 2. the fact that I train at 9/10/11pm at night and I am ravenous after a workout and don't want to wake my family up by cooking at midnight, plus I was earning more before the end of the financial year when Target cut their spending back, so maccas was a good get.

So currently my daily food consists of as i said before.
Greek yogurt, 6 weetbix, up n go , 5 eggs, 300-500g of meat, steamed vegetables (cauliflower, broccolli, carrot etc) few scoops of whey and water, and then a few extra calories here and there from what is in the house (usually rye/grain breads and spreads - love me some pb&j)

That food is relatively cheap, fits my macros, doesn't take a hell of a lot of preparation and mainly because i've just come off bulk and my stomach is pretty stretched fills me up.

 

[Jab]

ablett and FlowersByIrene getting along, I'm a fan of that

FlowersByIrene , you said that you were formally a little larger as a kid? Would you care to outline your diet/exercise habits and how you turned things around? Nothing personal, I wouldn't ask anything like that, (I don't even post my profile ) I'm just genuinely interested in hearing about your life transformation.