The difference between Italians, Greeks and Lebanese

[Weaver]

Disagree, there were never race riots occuring as a result of italian immigration, nor Greeks. This is far worse than that.

There was never 5,000 protesters fueled by a rabid populist media calling for them to be excluded from the country either. I remember violence in South Melbourne after a soccer match not so long ago. Mobs rampaging in the streets of South Melbourne. And that was some 40-50 years after the settlement, not 10.

 

[Silvagnis]

There were two articles about the riots in today's edition of The Age about.One by a Lebanese-Australian who had this to say about her own culture.
The un-Australian way

Whether it is young, angry, violent Lebanese men or young, angry, violent Cronulla locals, it makes no difference to me — they are all heading down a dangerous and destructive path.

This is not the first time a problem like this has arisen — Middle Eastern gangs versus the this-is-our-shire young Aussie blokes — but why hasn't the problem been properly tackled before this? Where are the police to regularly patrol these beaches and prevent this sort

of violence from occurring?

I am Lebanese and I know what these young Lebanese boys are capable of and how they can behave in public

The other article quoted a former policeman who predicted this sort of thing after being involved in two NCA cases on organised crime.I'm not typecasting Lebanese people, but the Federal Government did win a lot of seats at the last election because the police took a softly-softly approach on this issue.There are reportedly areas in Sydney where the police won't even venture into because of fears for their own lives.

But you seem to be content with labelling Rick_James a bigot instead of discussing the facts that are acknowledged by a Lebanese woman.

Rick_James should have worded it better by posting some Lebanese people and then he couldn't be called a bigot.

Sons of beaches: a land girt by bigots

Next, a series of counter-terrorism raids on Middle Eastern families in the city's south-west. All of which coincided with the increasing menace of Lebanese crime gangs in Sydney's underworld, muscling in on narcotics, gun-running, car theft and extortion.

In November 2003, a retired NSW police detective, Tim Priest, delivered a scathing presentation to a dinner hosted by Quadrant magazine. Having worked on two National Crime Authority taskforces on organised crime, Priest warned of the risk of parts of Sydney degenerating into Los Angeles-style gang warfare unless police chiefs recanted the "softly-softly" approach adopted since the mid-1990s to ethnically based criminal gangs.

"The Middle Eastern crime groups and their associates number in the thousands," Priest went on to say, adding, controversially, that much of their violence was racially motivated. "That these groups of males can roam a city and assault, rob and intimidate at will can no longer be denied or excused. Even more alarming is that the violence is directed mainly against young Australian men or women … victims … because they are Australian."

The Lebanese gangs, he said, were ruthless in the extreme: "They intimidated not only innocent witnesses but even the police that attempted to arrest them. As these crime groups encountered less resistance in terms of police operations and enforcement, their power grew not only within their own communities, but also all around Sydney."

Priest drew a comparison with the no-go zones of inner-suburban Paris. "Police began to use selective law enforcement," he said. "In hundreds upon hundreds of incidents, police have backed down to Middle Eastern thugs, taken no action and allowed incidents to go unpunished. Again, I stress the unbelievable influence that local politicians and religious leaders played in covering up the real state of play."

In the flip side to the contentious policy of racial profiling, Priest asserted that police in NSW have tended to prosecute those who were less likely to use their ethnic background, or cultural beliefs, to hinder investigations. This kept the police out of trouble with the Anti-Discrimination Board, the Privacy Council and the internal investigations unit. But one effect, argued Priest, was to give Lebanese crime gangs the run of the streets.

Priest has been attacked as a nutter, a racist and a liar, for raising these confronting questions about cultural sensitivity in NSW policing. Pity is, his grim prophecy might now have to be taken far more seriously. And not just on the beach.

 

[pube_]

It seems it doesn't matter how one words things, it's the content of what they're beliefs are that causes people on Big Footy to attack them, or moderators to pick on a few people. I don't know their histories on here, but any negative talk of the actual Lebanese rioters or mention of the possible problems (culture, religion) and it gets you in hot water.

 

[Sturgeon22]

Originally Posted by Weaver
There was never 5,000 protesters fueled by a rabid populist media calling for them to be excluded from the country either. I remember violence in South Melbourne after a soccer match not so long ago. Mobs rampaging in the streets of South Melbourne. And that was some 40-50 years after the settlement, not 10.

The incident involved fights between Greeks and Macedonians. Different issue

 

[Weaver]

The incident involved fights between Greeks and Macedonians. Different issue

Not really. The suggestion was that there had never been a race riot in this country. We have had many. So the parties in this one are different, big deal.

 

[medusala]

The incident involved fights between Greeks and Macedonians. Different issue

I agree to a large extent. Its like when the bikies beat each other up, noone cares as long as the general population isnt involved. Same for the gangland murders in Melbourne and the Vietnamese violence in Fitzroy Gardens.

The difference with the Lebs is that rather than just beating up other gangs the community at large has been targetted.

 

[OldLion]

My dads generation were in their early 20s as Gough Whitlam was elected in 1972. I know this was a time when Whitlam locked up Croatians who the government deemed to be hotheads. IIRC he was even one of the first Western Leaders to start up diplomatic talks and the like with Yugoslavia, correct me if Im wrong.

On the second point, wrong. Yugoslavia under Tito was seen as a Soviet irritant which suited the West. He was seen as strategic, a great foil as he played both sides of the street .. and also he kept all those ethnic factions from messing around and destablising a very unstable place. Whitlam did start diplomatic talks with China - a whole other topic. On the first, the lads did set off a few bombs in Melbourne ( imagine what would happen to them now ) and did actually land in Croatia .. so they did bring it on themselves. I mean we all got up to speed on the Ustasha and the penny dropped. So 'hotheads' is a little mild. Anyway, you see how it goes .. I know the Croats were very defensive and felt under siege - sound familiar ? And even now, my 'serbian' friends still struggle with Arkan and the other murderers because they wrapped themselves in the flag and preached an 'us v them' message - if you're not with us, you're against us. Sound familiar ?

 

[Former]

I know I have always said Im Australian with Croatian blood running proudly through my veins. I also know though that there are ALOT of people within the Croatian community that I know will say their Croatian before Australian.

A little story:

At one "Croatian" catholic church there was a minor uproar when the visting Bishop was going to say mass in English. There were people there saying "we are not Australian, we do not want mass said in any language but Croatian".

The priest told them he was not going to, nor even able to, deny his bishop a mass in the church and that was the end of it, apart from some grumbles. It takes all kinds.

 

[pube_]

I just had similar treatment from CharlieG deleting my posts after disagreeing with beatnik. Beatniks remained though.
Some are obviously more equal than others.

I've noticed a number of posts made by the anti-PC brigade do get deleted. Even when they're not defamatory and the PC brigade are being defamatory. I wouldn't say all mods are like this, there seems to be a lot of mods around, and some of them I've posted with seem pretty cool.

 

[Former]

I'm happy to bet that none of them are Muslims and I wont be surprised if the Lebanese friends you have that you mentioned in an earlier post aren't either.

None are Muslim that I know. Some are great, some are good but hard nuts if you are not friends with them. Some are just bastards.

A range of personality types all within a particular religious background. Who'd a thunk it?

 

[pube_]

Is that a picture of you as a kid Appleyard in your avatar?

 

[Former]

Disagree, there were never race riots occuring as a result of italian immigration, nor Greeks. This is far worse than that.

So the fighting at the soccer that people have brought up as an example of a failure of multiculturalism never, ever involved Greeks or Italians at any stage in Australia's history?

 

[Former]

Is that a picture of you as a kid Appleyard in your avatar?

Yes. And ask Fall Out Boy to change your user name please.

 

[pube_]

Multiculturalism has always been a most problematic equillibrium in every nation in the world. It's a great thing when it works. Wonder if there is any solution to making it work. A lot of cultures just don't mix well. Though, at the same time, it's always beneficial in many other ways when cultures influence each other and give of their own to the other. When one culture historically resists assimilation, be it ethnics or certain ethnics here, or anglo-saxons in a predominantly Asian or Arabic nation, then it's never going to work for that particular culture.

 

[Frodo]

Can people who consider themselves Arabs and not Australian, and who put Islamic law above Australian law, really be expected to integrate ?

Incidentally, Lebanon was once a fantastic place where Christians and Muslims, although having their own areas, worked and lived happily together. It was a great place for a holiday and the people were great too.

Look at it now! Wrecked as a result of Syrian and Palestinian hatred.

 

[- PC -]

Disagree, there were never race riots occuring as a result of italian immigration, nor Greeks. .

Wanna bet?

 

[carlyp]

On the second point, wrong. Yugoslavia under Tito was seen as a Soviet irritant which suited the West. He was seen as strategic, a great foil as he played both sides of the street .. and also he kept all those ethnic factions from messing around and destablising a very unstable place. Whitlam did start diplomatic talks with China - a whole other topic. On the first, the lads did set off a few bombs in Melbourne ( imagine what would happen to them now ) and did actually land in Croatia .. so they did bring it on themselves. I mean we all got up to speed on the Ustasha and the penny dropped. So 'hotheads' is a little mild. Anyway, you see how it goes .. I know the Croats were very defensive and felt under siege - sound familiar ? And even now, my 'serbian' friends still struggle with Arkan and the other murderers because they wrapped themselves in the flag and preached an 'us v them' message - if you're not with us, you're against us. Sound familiar ?

Oh I know there was some Croats who were absolutely nuts in those days. Im not denying that at all! However their concerns were legitimate, Yugoslavia was a bad set up for them. Croatia and Slovenia were by and large the two wealthiest states in the federation and the wealth generated from those states paid for backward Serbia and Bosnia. It brought both Slovenia and Croatia down economically and socially and I can definitely understand why both countries ended up declaring independence from 'Jugoslavia'. Croatians couldnt own land, were persecuted and locked up for even speaking about independence. I'll get someone who lived in Croatia during those days to post something verifying the story. I guess what Im saying is that Croats and Slovenians had good reason to want out of Yugoslavia. Their method was no good, I dont agree with terrorism but their idea was absolutely understandable.

Yes the us versus them theology is familliar and both sides are guilty of it unfortunately. I remember when I was about 7 years old we were doing a little project about our origins. We had to take a map home and colour in the country our origins came from and colour in Australia and so forth. My parents worked long hours so I used to go to my Baba and Dedo (grandparents) in the afternoon and do some homework, watch television and talk to my Dedo ( a very wise man). Id get stuffed full of food by my Baba while I talked to Dedo about stuff. I remember this one particular day I was colouring in 'Yugoslavia' and my dedo was reading a newspaper. He looked over and asked me what I was doing....I said I had to colour in the country on the map of the world from which my family originated. He got up and came over and was watching me and noticed I was colouring in Yugoslavia. He said....BAH! Your not Yugoslav! Your croat....draw the internal borders and colour only Croatia! So I did do that and my teacher was quite impressed, I got an 9/10!

 

[LebaneseForces]

Can people who consider themselves Arabs and not Australian, and who put Islamic law above Australian law, really be expected to integrate ?

Incidentally, Lebanon was once a fantastic place where Christians and Muslims, although having their own areas, worked and lived happily together. It was a great place for a holiday and the people were great too.

Look at it now! Wrecked as a result of Syrian and Palestinian hatred.

Paris Of The Middle East!!!
Lebanon was wrecked as you pointed out by Palestinian and Syria... These Lebanese gangs going around remind me of the Palestinians! Before the War in Lebanon broke out the Palestinians with the backing of the fanatical Muslims pushed the Christians to the point of no return... They murdered, raped, stole and behaved like animals and these characters now remind me of them!!!
Unfortunately these fanatics are doing it in Sydney! The Christians and moderate lebanese Muslims are the nicest people you will ever meet... The fanatics cannot live in Australia and must be either deported if they hold dual citizenship or brought into line and the only way to do that is to be tough on them! If these characters were in Lebanon now, they wouldn't Dare do this... they dead set would be thrown in Prison and made to pay a big price.

 

[- PC -]

Let me tell you a story , and the reason I have stayed out of most of the threads to do with the riot/melee.

I grew up in Adelaide , specifically one of the ''poorer'' areas. The area was commonly known as The Parks after all the suburbs with Park as their indicator. Most of the Parks people could be considered Anglo-Saxons and Aboriginal..the Vietnamese had moved in but were sticking together .


In 1980/81 AC/DC came and played at Virginia Speedway( now renamed Adelaide International Raceway) and a tendency, I have noticed, with those of a lower income base is to embrace that music which crashes through the ears and into the brain drowning out the noise of the screaming parent or the noise of the yelling neighbours or police sirens. At the time most people who couldnt afford a ticket usually sat outside and listened to the music and at least say ''I was there'' . Outside there were less controls on drinking etc and like most the Parks boys loved a drink...same reason as the music I guess.

Croydon is a suburb a few kilometres from The Parks and was a big Greek/Italian area..eg Croydon High School was known as ''Spot the Aussie '' High. The Croydon Boys also decided AC/DC would be a good concert to go to, and one thing led to another and alcohol and bravado in numbers turned a small disagreement into a huge fight which even made the news that night.

Over the next few weeks life was interesting to say the least, walking home from friends houses was done tree to tree , and anytime a car turned into a street you wondered if it was friend or foe, and when the beer bottles came at you , you knew they werent friends and you ran....you ran as fast as you could because you knew if they did a U Turn you were going to be set upon by anything up to 6 people ''just out for a bit of fun'' ...and the best that you could hope for after that was another car turned in the street and the original carload took off.

Things came to a head when a '' fight night'' was organised to sort it out. A hundred people gathered at the Parks Community Centre waiting for the Wogs and dagos to arrive so we could teach those idiots a lesson. Adrenaline pumping , excitement building , all those weeks of running and hiding and now this... '' hey here they come ..are you all ready?'' '' oh shyt its cops run''

The police later found a full set of golf clubs, cricket stumps with nails, rythmic gymnastic batons( baseball bats were scarce) etc etc

Once again nothing was resolved and still the fear of walking anywhere was always there... sure the fight night was exhilirating and I can understand the feelings expressed by those that were there... but they dont have to put up with the fear of wondering if the car coming down the street is a friend or foe... they dont have to wonder how long they will have to stay tucked into a ball as the kicks come down on them... eventually people got bored with it, or winter came along but either way it ended.

All those keyboard heroes who want to be in these fights only see the one side of it... not the other where those people in Cronulla and now Lakemba et al will live in fear as they walk down the streets at night wondering if tonights the night they bleed for ''a cause''

 

[pube_]

Who dealt it smelt it. In this case in Sydney, the extremist faction of Muslims or Arabs that have been on a crime rampage the last 15 years, have to smell it. If they start feeling fear in their own neighbourhoods, that's a problem they brought onto themselves. Australians all over have been very tolerant for years. The way they reacted was bad and won't solve anything. But the Muslim or Arabic community can't cry wolf when they have been given years to assimilate, respect the law more often, and feel lucky to be in Australia, instead of allowing and/or condoning or teaching their youth or siblings to thumb their noses at everything and everyone.

Deep down, Muslims perhaps want an independent Muslim state. Generally speaking, Muslims are not completely content living in a democratic western or christian state. If there is even a significant percentage of Muslims which feel this way, then this a problem that is not going to go away. Continual violence or even terror attacks will occur against Australia(ns) until they force the Australian government's hand into getting an independent state, or they are defeated into submission. But either route, it seems violence will be inevitable.

All it takes is the Muslim and Arabic communities themselves to come down hard on their own people, and those extremist factions. If they don't, then other people won't solve the problem. It's just like a rampaging brat child let loose on a supermarket. If the parents don't crack down on their kids, other people affected by these children cannot and will not be able to put them in line and teach them respect.

 

[MickZu]

The main difference is that the Greek and Italians mostly migrated here in the 1950s and are 2nd and 3rd generation.

The Lebanese who came at the same time are similarly commited to Australia, such as Steve Bracks or the NSW Governer.

The Lebanese immigrants from the 1980s and 1990s are 30-40 years further back down the line on the assimilation track.

I hope your right.

Greeks, Italians and most other European exitus were of Christian faith migrating to a country that adopted Christianity as the major line of worship.
Over a period of time, certain things and the way they evolved become a natural way of life in Australia eg; the BBQ and bikini beauties on our white sands to name a few. These were accepted by most immigrants so assimilation was reasonably smooth, but what happens when people of a different faith that don't believe in our ideology start to migrate? People who don't believe in pork snags (eating pork is offensive), people who believe women should cover up, people who don't want to support our standard uniform in schools. Assimilation becomes more difficult if our way of life is not accepted, so what is going to be the outcome?

What happens?

What happens is OUR way of life changes as not to offend those of the different faith, it's called "political correctness". And guess what?
It's happening now, yes a few things that we take for granted are being changed so as to less offend people of other faiths and it's only going to get worse. Where we are willing to alter the ideology we grew up with to welcome others with open arms, I'm afraid the others are not willing to alter their beliefs and it is evident.

Political correctness is going to get worse, imagine being told at your next office BBQ that pork meats should not be brought so as not to offend (this is happening now). What about a public swimming pool or beach being closed to the public because it is in use by Muslim women (the pool incident has already happen). Don't get me started on restrictions that are going to occur in schools (eg food sold in cafeterias).

Will "Australians" and I use the term loosely, will they accept this change? I don't think they will welcome it with open arms.

No, I predict turbulent times ahead unfortunately. Hope I'm wrong.........

 

[celtic_pride]

You can go to Edithvale or Mentone in summer and see a large group of Italians or Greeks at the beach, and yet have very little in the way of trouble or angst?

And certainly none racially based.

What's the difference? Lebanese culture is the difference. IT simply isn't compatible.

Not saying we can do anything about it, stopping immigration would be detrimental to our nation. I just think we shouldn't live in delusion that Lebz are actually compatible with the Australians. And no, Lebz are not Australians, you can't be both.

The lebanese are here to stay ... Like it or lump it ...

 

[OldLion]

...what happens when people of a different faith that don't believe in our ideology start to migrate? People who don't believe in pork snags (eating pork is offensive), people who believe women should cover up, people who don't want to support our standard uniform in schools....

The irony of this is that you could be talking about the Jews. This argument was very popular in Europe 70 years ago .. and look what happened there. You'd have to be pretty insensitive to invite friends to a BBQ and not offer maybe alternatives to meat, booze etc... When I hear the phrase political correctness, I know a whole lot of twaddle will follow. There's a difference between thugs running around beating up on each other and people eating pork !

 

[OldLion]

Oh I know there was some Croats who were absolutely nuts in those days. Im not denying that at all! However their concerns were legitimate, .......Their method was no good, I dont agree with terrorism but their idea was absolutely understandable....

That's my point exactly - who determines the legitimacy of grievences ? Ask the Palestinians for example.. or the Tibetans. Everyone craves justice and a fair go - and this is my vision of a multicultural Australia. No one said it would be easy - if it was, everyone would be doing it. But that shouldn't stop us.

 

[Sturgeon22]

You can go to Edithvale or Mentone in summer and see a large group of Italians or Greeks at the beach, and yet have very little in the way of trouble or angst?

And certainly none racially based.

What's the difference? Lebanese culture is the difference. IT simply isn't compatible.

Not saying we can do anything about it, stopping immigration would be detrimental to our nation. I just think we shouldn't live in delusion that Lebz are actually compatible with the Australians. And no, Lebz are not Australians, you can't be both.

On behalf of the wog fraternity I thank you for your kind words. Some of your fellow Aussies - though - reckon that we are all the same and should be dealt with accordingly. You can find their interesting opinions at the General Discussion Forum.