News Dons ASADA scandal (Latest: Pg 101 - CAS verdict. Guilty, 12 months.)

[Black_White]

No doubt I would support my club going forward.
But I would want those responsible for putting the players of my club in to this situation to be bought to account.
Most would never be welcome at an AFL club, function or game ever again.
I sympathise with Paddy Ryder. The guys worried about substances put into his body that no-one seems able to actually state what they are.
For a young man looking to expand his family you would be shitting the proverbial about what ticking time bomb you may have inside you.

 

[Black_White]

Guys, it's really worth a read on the Essendon board if you need to cheer yourself up for any particular reason. Delusional to the point of highly humorous. Shaking my head.

Some guy with a f***ing diploma in legal services "so I know what I'm talking about" can't understand how Justin Middleton (yep, called him Justin) could come to his conclusions. What a foolish, underqualified federal court judge.

Another guy said that's why James Hird won a brownlow...he never gives up. (Until his club is a smouldering wreck resembling Dresden after WWII.)


It's just gold.

Been more entertaining than this game of footy.

 

[Demonalke]

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-06-24/bomber-watson-admits-taking-banned-drug/4777342

I did not see a quote that states "he has admitted to taking substances that he cannot say exactly what they were" unless you are talking about the consent form and the whole dank/alavi thing - which I guess I agree about & proves that you should not hire witch doctors.

 

[Black_White]

I did not see a quote that states "he has admitted to taking substances that he cannot say exactly what they were" unless you are talking about the consent form and the whole dank/alavi thing - which I guess I agree about & proves that you should not hire witch doctors.

If you want to defend the actions of EFC and it's employees, go ahead.
Watson, like every player, has no idea what they were injected with. The club itself has admitted that.
The very fact they cannot hold up a piece of paper detailing the time, location and substances injected means that they have taken illegal substances.
That is the anti doping law. Upheld mere hours ago.
Enjoy your point of view, no matter how wrong it is.

 

[Starcevich90]

Been more entertaining than this game of footy.

Yep, that's why I got on there. And am not even up to the Ryder thread yet.

 

[Old Spice]

You are all naive if you think the players didn't know full well what was going on.

They were certainly culpable of closing ranks, that's the very best polish you can put on it. I mean when you are asked to sign consent forms, you surely a/. ask what you are being administered and b/. mention it to your manager and/or union (player's association).

I'm happy to give them the benefit of the doubt that they were duped in order to negotiate a plea bargain where the instigators of this program are absolutely nailed to the mast and then drawn and quartered.

And in fact the players have to decide before the case proceeds - this case being merely about scuppering the show clause notices - whether they knew what they took or whether they were deceived, the subjects of a fraudulent abuse of power. If they opt for the former, they mug themselves by admitting they were willing accomplices and may as well kiss their careers goodbye. If they state that Essendon duped them, then there is simply no way out for Hird and his pack of cronies.

 

[Demonalke]

Enjoy your point of view, no matter how wrong it is.

Thanks for your permission

 

[Old Spice]

It's unbelievable how much of their own members money they have wasted on this court case - 500k at this point just in legal fees for essentially a procedural case, let alone the PR costs etc. Love to see how this is itemised in the Financial Report and all to save their own hides when they (Hird et al) should have accepted their punishment and walked away instead of enacting some egotistical scorched earth policy.

A bunch of Essendon members jumped on board this year, unless of course Little and Hird started recruiting from the Fawkner cemetery, but it will be interesting to see how things go next year.

 

[popin]

welcome to collingwood Mr Hurley i'm sure he would look great in black and white stripes than play for this guy mr hird.
Here is a clip of hird in court that i hope you like

 

[76woodenspooners]

If the 34 players cop bans, how will Essendon be able to field a team?

Surely they have to, to comply with the broadcasting agreement.

Where will they get players from?

 

[DaicosianMarvels]

Ryder is the first one to walk out but hey #standbyhird

Since I was a little kid I wished something like this to happen to Essendon, something that would damage that club and even though we didn't make the 8 it's not all that bad, we will be back next season and we will be able to field a team at least.

 

[vjknight]

If the 34 players cop bans, how will Essendon be able to field a team?

Surely they have to, to comply with the broadcasting agreement.

Where will they get players from?

cmon 76 get educated

with the players who have either retired or been traded away since 2012, and the now known departures for 2014, it'll be about 16 from the current list.

the likelihood of a special draft AFTER the main drafts are complete is strong.

but this all assumes the club exists. once reality hits the players, the lawyers will appear again - this time to sue the clubs arse off. will be pursued vigourously by their managers.

if they survive theyll be a basketcase for many years. members will plummet, as will sponsors. theyll likely lose anzac day very soon, and become worse than melbourne. and it didnt have to be like this. 18 months ago and with a complete sweeping out of the instigators, admittance of wrong doing and they would have been ready for early 2014. BUT NO THE HIERARCHY KNEW BETTER.

several on this board have hated my stance on this since day one. that i understand. but likewise i hate the idea of clubs being effectively dissolved by negligent management, which is precisely the case here. and their equally negligent supporter base who have simply failed to analyse anything provided to them and decided instead to accept the words of those with most to lose (apart from the players).

and theres still one possible devil in the detail. if joe daniher has received a show cause, theres big trouble brewing.
he wasnt on the list in 2012. but he was certainly training with the club constantly. and he was only 17 at the time.
remember anthony daniher giving the presidents speech at a game late in 2013. was not a happy man.

jail time if joe was injected - guaranteed..

 

[MagpieBat]

If the 34 players cop bans, how will Essendon be able to field a team?

Surely they have to, to comply with the broadcasting agreement.

Where will they get players from?

Actually closer to 20, in terms of those still at Essendon. The other 12-14 are either at other clubs, delisted and now playing state league/suburban/bush footy, or retired.

So, even if those 20 were all suspended, they would still have half a list to field a team in the AFL. Just not a very competitive team. But a team nonetheless...

So that 18 team broadcast rights agreement would be protected (al beit, we might be seeing a lot more Essendon games solely on Fox Footy. Can't fixture a VFL team in the prestigious free-to-air timeslots if they're going to get smashed by 100 points every week...)

As for getting some players to plug the sudden gap in their list, well, they still have picks in the 1st, 3rd, and 4th rounds of the draft, plus their rookie draft picks, so they can source some kids/state league players. Guys like Ryder, if they choose to just seek a trade instead of activate 'that' clause, well they'll get some currency for them which may be in the form of new players. Maybe Goddard will ask for a trade to a team that's actually in the window to get that flag he wants?

And there is also Free Agency, particularly of the Delisted kind, to fill some empty jumpers. Yagmoor to the Bombers perhaps, lol? Experienced bodies like James Gwilt, Clint Jones, etc, may find a new home to continue their (granted, average) careers. Sam Dunnell could end up playing for his old man's team after all...

(Don't forget some of those unsuccessful contestants on The Recruit who could be signed for free as Category B rookies. Come on down and fulfill your childhood dream of playing in the AFL! Don't worry about rotting in the reserves, because you'll be getting a game every week! All hands on deck, so to speak, lol!)

Failing all that, I suppose the AFL might have some contingency plans to allow them to sign the players on their VFL list to make up the numbers. Josh Toy could get that 2nd crack at his AFL dream at the club he grew up barracking for, given his ticker is apparently okay to play competitive football with.

There will be issues to work through (ie: TPP), but those are the avenues Essendon could utilize to compile a full senior list. Remember, they only need a minimum of 38 primary-listed players to have an eligible playing roster for season 2015. Granted, it will be akin to the Carlton of the post-2002 era, or the Bad News Bears of the late 80s/early 90s, but for the purposes of maintaining an 18 team competition (with all the broadcast rights agreement dollars that come with that), it will nonetheless serve its purpose...

 

[Dynamics]

I'll be blunt... I have never understood the level of sympathy and victim labelling associated with the players. I mean, yes their trust was betrayed and that stinks enormously but they aren't children.

In reality a group of men (Daniher aside if he was injected), who are professional athletes in the 21st century, just let people repeatedly inject them with god-knows-what?

The fact that you are young, naive and absurdly trusting does not absolve you of responsibility for your own body. You're still subject to rules. I mean, why didn't any of the older players think to ask what the hell was going on?

Don't get me wrong, I think the way Hird and the EFC abused this trust is appalling. Doc Reid was thoroughly negligent in his duties. I think Hird is deluded in his self righteousness. I think the Federal Court case was frivolous and demonstrates that Essendon would destroy the reputation of the game itself before it would front up to its responsibilities. The fact that so many supporters STILL blindly support Hird is amazing.

I read that comment on their board about his attitude being why he won a Brownlow and... I dunno, what do you say about that? Such thoughtless devotion is why the club continues to act this way and why Hird is coach again. The man shouldn't be allowed near a club again at least until ASADA are done, but there he is. Because supporters not only let the club behave like this but actively want them to "fight".

No one wins out of this and no one should. At least Middleton did his best to see off an appeal and ASADA can eventually move forward with ending this nightmare.

So glad it's happening there and we aren't involved.

 

[76woodenspooners]

cmon 76 get educated

Suspect that I'm one of many people who said around April last year "Wake me up when something happens"

... with the players who have either retired or been traded away since 2012, and the now known departures for 2014, it'll be about 16 from the current list...

OK, and it's still a significant number.

...the likelihood of a special draft AFTER the main drafts are complete is strong...

I'm assuming that other clubs who have ex-Essendon players affected on their roster would also be able to dip into that?

I'm a bit torn about the "AFTER" bit. If that becomes the case, players who are drafted in the Special Draft will have a better chance of playing AFL footy than Rookie listed players - that seems a bit strange? But from a Collingwood point of view, given that we've cleared out our rookie list and need to refill it, we don't want to be dealing with a compromised draft by having the special draft before the rookie draft.

It's not even as if Essendon could trade out 'compromised' players (as kind of happened with Tippett) and get draft picks in return - players are effectively free agents.

Gee this is a mess!

...but this all assumes the club exists. once reality hits the players, the lawyers will appear again - this time to sue the clubs arse off. will be pursued vigourously by their managers.

I think we're a long way from the doomsday scenario of Essendon folding (and it would be a doomsday scenario - all that rivalry lost).

Sure the AFL has pockets deep enough to under-right any litigation.

if they survive theyll be a basketcase for many years. members will plummet, as will sponsors. theyll likely lose anzac day very soon, and become worse than melbourne. and it didnt have to be like this. 18 months ago and with a complete sweeping out of the instigators, admittance of wrong doing and they would have been ready for early 2014. BUT NO THE HIERARCHY KNEW BETTER.

We can see that with the benefit of hindsight.

If Essendon had stood down Hird there would have been a massive outcry (there's another club - one that is a bit closer to our hearts - where the senior coach left back at the end of 2011, and there are significant parts of that club's supporter base who are still whining about it.

Multiply that by 10 if Hird had been stood down at Essendon for "doing nothing wrong" in the eyes of folks who don't know what "position of responsibility" means.

It may not seem so today, butit might end up better for Essendon that this was tested and the judgement so decisive. The club can now take decisive action itself (if it's smart) and move on.

...several on this board have hated my stance on this since day one. that i understand. but likewise i hate the idea of clubs being effectively dissolved by negligent management, which is precisely the case here. and their equally negligent supporter base who have simply failed to analyse anything provided to them and decided instead to accept the words of those with most to lose (apart from the players).

To be fair, I think it would have been like that at any club.

and theres still one possible devil in the detail. if joe daniher has received a show cause, theres big trouble brewing.
he wasnt on the list in 2012. but he was certainly training with the club constantly. and he was only 17 at the time.
remember anthony daniher giving the presidents speech at a game late in 2013. was not a happy man.

jail time if joe was injected - guaranteed..

Anybody who is smart enough to issue an informed consent form surely wouldn't be dumb enough to give it to a 17 year old to sign? And if a legal guardian signed it (a very experienced ex-footballer in this case) then I don't see how this is any worse than what's happened to the other players?

Who would go to jail?

 

[rustyg70]

ASADA need to get Dank to testify truthfully on the stand.
He is the only one who can reveal what was given, and who it was given to.
Get Dank and this will be over very quickly.
His name is already mud because of his practices in the NRL and AFL.
What else has he got to lose.

 

[speedytiger]

If the 34 players cop bans, how will Essendon be able to field a team?

Surely they have to, to comply with the broadcasting agreement.

Where will they get players from?

Next years series of 'the recruit' will have 34 winners

 

[76woodenspooners]

I'll be blunt... I have never understood the level of sympathy and victim labelling associated with the players. I mean, yes their trust was betrayed and that stinks enormously but they aren't children.

In reality a group of men (Daniher aside if he was injected), who are professional athletes in the 21st century, just let people repeatedly inject them with god-knows-what?

The fact that you are young, naive and absurdly trusting does not absolve you of responsibility for your own body. You're still subject to rules. I mean, why didn't any of the older players think to ask what the hell was going on?

How many people in greater society ask their doctor / pharmacist about risks / side affects to medication before they take it? (Let alone 18 year olds)

I don't think it's unreasonable that players would trust what the club officials were doing to them. Which is exactly why the book should be thrown at the officials responsible.

Don't get me wrong, I think the way Hird and the EFC abused this trust is appalling. Doc Reid was thoroughly negligent in his duties. I think Hird is deluded in his self righteousness. I think the Federal Court case was frivolous and demonstrates that Essendon would destroy the reputation of the game itself before it would front up to its responsibilities. The fact that so many supporters STILL blindly support Hird is amazing.

I read that comment on their board about his attitude being why he won a Brownlow and... I dunno, what do you say about that?

"Whatever it takes" has a dark side to it, but it's not all dark.

Such thoughtless devotion is why the club continues to act this way and why Hird is coach again.

Hird doesn't know any different - football has been his life.

The man shouldn't be allowed near a club again at least until ASADA are done, but there he is.

Agreed.

Because supporters not only let the club behave like this but actively want them to "fight".

I think it'd be even worse if it was Collingwood - we're the ones with the "It's us against them" slogan.

No one wins out of this and no one should. At least Middleton did his best to see off an appeal and ASADA can eventually move forward with ending this nightmare.

So glad it's happening there and we aren't involved.

Indeed

 

[76woodenspooners]

ASADA need to get Dank to testify truthfully on the stand.
He is the only one who can reveal what was given, and who it was given to.
Get Dank and this will be over very quickly.
His name is already mud because of his practices in the NRL and AFL.
What else has he got to lose.

I'm guessing the reason why he turned up to the ruling is because, had it gone in Essendon's favour, he could have stood in front of the media afterwards and (falsely) claim vindication. Can't imagine that life would be easy for him now, and any moral victory would be handy for him.

 

[Baltimore Jack]

None of the drugs used to dope Essendon players were administered by a Doctor

Not one Essendon player asked:
* Their Manager
* The AFLPA
* The AFL Integrity Officer
If what the Club was telling them was true or if the drugs they were being administered were WADA compliant
They blindly accepted (IMV purposely) what the Club told them

They are therefore, under ASADA/AFL doping rules, responsible

 

[Matt_352]

Ill glady have Heppell come to Pies

 

[rustyg70]

I'm guessing the reason why he turned up to the ruling is because, had it gone in Essendon's favour, he could have stood in front of the media afterwards and (falsely) claim vindication. Can't imagine that life would be easy for him now, and any moral victory would be handy for him.

True.
Do the courts have the power to be able to summon him to testify against his wishes?
And if they do, what would happen to him if he refuses?

 

[vjknight]

None of the drugs used to dope Essendon players were administered by a Doctor

Not one Essendon player asked:
* Their Manager
* The AFLPA
* The AFL Integrity Officer
If what the Club was telling them was true or if the drugs they were being administered were WADA compliant
They blindly accepted (IMV purposely) what the Club told them

They are therefore, under ASADA/AFL doping rules, responsible

and do remember viewers, this program went for 1 year - 12 months - 365 days. the language from EFC makes it sound like a week long camp where the organisers misled everyone. not the case. the doctor was there but got told to ignore what he sees, and agreed. the assistant coaches were there, with one (bomber) raising concerns 5 times and still the program went on. (why he had to try 5 times without luck and didnt take another path is bewildering). the clubs management were there, and knew all along or once they found out tried to bury it. the afl found out, and tried to bury it. the senior players were there, and knew it was totally abnormal, and saw astounding development in young players bodies, but didnt show concern. AND WHY ?
COS ONE MAN HAD SUPREME SAY ON HOW HIS CLUB WAS TO BE RUN. AND THEY ALL LISTENED. AND KEPT QUIET.

rather than shut your eyes to this whole saga, find yourselves a credible timeline and try to understand what each stage meant, and consider the duration of the program. not the duration of the investigation, but the program. i think it says a lot.

twelve ******* months. THATS NOT GOVERNANCE. THATS NEGLIGENCE.
by all connected. including the EFC members.

 

[BlackWhiteBlood]

. the doctor was there but got told to ignore what he sees, and agreed.

twelve ******* months. THATS NOT GOVERNANCE. THATS NEGLIGENCE.

I used to feel for Dr Reid in all this. But have come around and hold him as responsible as anyone if not more so. He had serious misgivings about the injecting regime and kept quite. I'm fairly sure this could be viewed as breaking his Hippocratic Oath, one of the moral cornerstones of medicine. He as a doctor was required to take his concerns else where but fail to do so. Surly the medical profession can take steps to hold him accountable for this.

 

[BlackWhiteBlood]

also friends, all AFL players are told the only LEGAL documents they should be signing is their CONTRACTS. So when MEDICAL waivers were put in front of them suspicions should have been raised. After all a legal document allowing you to be injected with various drugs is not all that similar to a kid with an auto-graph book.

Yes the club took advantage of the naive players, assuming they were all naive for a moment, but naivety is not an excuses under the rule of law. Thus all deserve to be punished with some form of suspension.