The Gap between hawthorn and richmond

[TerraTiger]

I don't personally think the gap is that big. Yes 3 flags in a row is unbelievable. However, we've beaten most of the top echelon sides this year. Add in development form C Ellis, Menadue, McBean.....who ever we recruit, and I don't think we're far off. In fact, a good run with injuries sees us in the top 4 IMO. Sydney, Freo, Hawks, North they'll struggle with drop off with age of list. Our time is now .....well .....starts in at or around Nov and continues until next Sept. I really think the 3 finals losses will be lessons not hindrances.

What i don't want to see, and i know this is hardly universal on here, is us chasing a huge name player and paying way over the odds for some sort of messiah. I don't care who that is, Dangerfield, Treloar, the incarnation of Ablett senior, the gap should be closed by development with what we have and what we can get to fill specific needs at reasonable levels of salary cap.

I repeat, our time is now.

 

[Bojangles17]

On a big stage , Hawthorn remind me of a prize fighter v the flighty up and comer . They wear a couple then step up and pound their opponent. Right now , we are the flighty opponent , full of swagger light on when it comes to the fight in the dog.
1 we need to change the mix some, bring in some silk that compliments our blue collar
2. Somehow get into our leaders that they can step up when it counts.
3 find out what Luke hodge is doing post playing career and bring him into the club , he s been instrumental in this era and has the makings of an outstanding coach

 

[TigerImposter]

Bass Strait

 

[JAKLAUGHING]

A few doggy umpiring decisions...

 

[Mr Magic]

- They do ths better then us. No fumbling, no hesitation and almost every possession hits its target.

- They put a lot of work into their pinpoint kicking and possession of the ball, which is something we've been working at over the last few years but need to keep improving on.

- They realize that stoppages and clearances aren't the most important factor of the game. What's more important is how you use the ball when you get it, how you defend the ground when the opposition gets it, and taking your chances in front of goal.

- Most teams in the modern era play full ground zone defense. Hawks game plan is tailor-made to pick this apart time and time again. No doubt Dimma has tried to replicate much of that with us, but the reality is our skills and speed aren't up to the level required to do this consistently yet. We're on the way, but need to keep working on our disposal efficiency and running patterns.

- Hawks have dangerous small forwards which we don't. Dimma & co really need to wake up and address this area as its our single biggest deficiency at present. In the modern game most kicks inside 50 don't get marked no matter how good your talls are. Something like 70-80% of the time when the ball is delivered inside 50 it comes to ground and small forwards come into play, which is why they are so crucial.

- The flip side advantage of having numerous small forwards is when the the oppositions defense wins the ball. Unlike talls, small forwards actually have the mobility to pressure the oppositions defense into bombing away long, usually to waiting numbers camped outside the 50. Locking the ball inside our half of the ground has been a focus under Dimma, but its usually ineffective as too many times opposing defenses just walk the ball out with little to no pressure and hit up easy targets. This forces us back and catches us out going the other way. A good small forward or 2 will make locking the ball inside our end of the ground so much easier and more effective. This is one of our biggest concerns going forward and needs to be addressed immediately this off season.

Actually the difference is Hodge and others like Roughead, Gunston. Basically they have more talent from better draft selections, trades and FA targets.

They have better inside mids, rucks and KPP's in particular.

We clearly are at least a few years off!

GF shown we can take no notice of home and away results and really need go chase the likes of Plowman, Bugg and Weller with draft picks to get our list to the point we can chase FA targets as our list reaches near contention from front loading so we can chase these elite types chasing more money as well as premiership glory

 

[kozi]

Actually the difference is Hodge and others like Roughead, Gunston. Basically they have more talent from better draft selections, trades and FA targets.

They have better inside mids, rucks and KPP's in particular.

We clearly are at least a few years off!

That's a very simplistic view. You're saying they don't do things as a team better then us, they just win because they have Hodge etc. A lot more to it then that.

 

[JAKLAUGHING]

Its blue and white and called NMFC...

 

[Tetley Tigers]

About 30 years

 

[Mr Magic]

That's a very simplistic view. You're saying they don't do things as a team better then us, they just win because they have Hodge etc. A lot more to it then that.

Nah, I am saying the win because they have Hodge, Roughead, Birch all, Smith, Guns ton, Frawley, Lake, Lewis, Mitchell, Rioli, Hale, McEvoy, Shoemakers, Burgoyne, Gibson, Suckling, Breast, Duryea and others

A lot of those players have 4 premierships. How many of the coaches have 4 premierships? I think their recruiter has more premierships!

Do they have someone like Chaplin? No, Bachelor? No but there are others as well.

How many of our players could kick the Hodge goal?

It is a reason an older team like them won in the heat to. Its called ability.

How did Box Hill go? Player driven?

 

[peternorth]

there are many variables. attracting burgoyne, gibson, lake, frawley (to lesser extent)......does anyone feel the advent of free agency directly or indirectly has assisted attracting players to their club?

 

[kozi]

Nah, I am saying the win because they have Hodge, Roughead, Birch all, Smith, Guns ton, Frawley, Lake, Lewis, Mitchell, Rioli, Hale, McEvoy, Shoemakers, Burgoyne, Gibson, Suckling, Breast, Duryea and others

A lot of those players have 4 premierships. How many of the coaches have 4 premierships? I think their recruiter has more premierships!

I get what you're saying it's obvious they have a better list then us. But give those players a dud game plan, don't drill skill into them and have them all running around not playing their set roles and I guarantee you they wouldn't be winning flags. They'd win regular season games against worse opposition but individuals don't win flags based purely on talent, let alone 3 in a row. Lot more to it then just what players a team has.

 

[Mr Magic]

there are many variables. attracting burgoyne, gibson, lake, frawley (to lesser extent)......does anyone feel the advent of free agency directly or indirectly has assisted attracting players to their club?

No but GWS and GC have

 

[Komrade_Tiger]

Its blue and white and called NMFC...

 

[Mr Magic]

I get what you're saying it's obvious they have a better list then us. But give those players a dud game plan, don't drill skill into them and have them all running around not playing their set roles and I guarantee you they wouldn't be winning flags. They'd win regular season games against worse opposition but individuals don't win flags based purely on talent, let alone 3 in a row. Lot more to it then just what players a team has.

True but Maclure said the best coaches and leaders are the players and player coaches were present in the past.

The point I am trying to make is IMO, if we are realistic we need to be looking in 2-3 years time not next year meaning getting the Plowman, Bugg, Weller types now, pushing Yarran back, let Freo and others have their shot while we get stronger with more quality draft talent to and get big FA targets later from front loading replacing Hawks when they decline as well as North so in 3 years time our list is very strong like Hawthorn capable of contending for multiple premierships.

GC are not a cause of worry now and GWS are looking iffy as well with the loss of Treloar not to mention others in the past and their list management conflicts

 

[kozi]

True but Maclure said the best coaches and leaders are the players and player coaches were present in the past.

The point I am trying to make is IMO, if we are realistic we need to be looking in 2-3 years time not next year meaning getting the Plowman, Bugg, Weller types now, pushing Yarran back, let Freo and others have their shot while we get stronger with more quality draft talent to and get big FA targets later from front loading replacing Hawks when they decline as well as North so in 3 years time our list is very strong like Hawthorn capable of contending for multiple premiershipd

Some pretty unique views you got there. You're saying we should twiddle our thumbs for the next 2-3 years and wait until we have a stronger list before we give it a crack. No thanks.

 

[Parquet Court]

much can happen in a year but there are too many players in this side who go missing in big games and no Im not talking round 11 against hawthorn/ freo/ sydney, im talking big finals, unfortunately for us that has been only a measly elim final for 3 years straight. On all of those occasions, our best players go missing, including the captain. I mean, there are still people looking for him after the last elim final. If you are reading this Trent, please come home, your family misses you.

Its not a great culture that is being built if this kind of thing happens consistently, whether or not it is skill or application is another discussion all together but for the sake of this thread, i will go with application.

There are a lot of players in the right age bracket for natural improvement and there are some really bright talents in this side, dont get me wrong but as long as Trent Cotchin is the captain of this side, the gap will remain as wide as it is now.

 

[Mr Magic]

Some pretty unique views you got there. You're saying we should twiddle our thumbs for the next 2-3 years and wait until we have a stronger list before we give it a crack. No thanks.

Nah, I am saying we can give it a crack in the next 2 years but the list is not good enough to win compared to the likes of Hawthorn that clearly like to downplay how good they are with tactical losses in the season.Better off getting Weller, Plowman and Bugg plus draft picks as well as free agents like Goldstein and others so in 2-3 years we will havelist Hawks will be too old like North and Freo and GC and GWS will still not be good enough anyway as we get in our window relative to the competition. We can even get Yarran next year via FA to free up 300k possibly to use for FA agents down the track via front loading.That means possibly trading out the likes of Astbury and Griffith's cause the Chaplins are not good enough and we need to wait for the better replacements to come! This is what I mean by the importance of double downing on list strategy and why staggered lists are for fools. The freed up cash allows clubs to chase the likes of Goldstein as FA while also getting quality value replacements for Chaplin and others which is why draftees and youngsters like Weller are so important getting contention lists together.

Plenty of teams have moderated their progression to get far better momentum forward down the track. Collingwood is a recent example and Bulldogs actually got immediate results!

In a way Treloar and Bennell if chasing bigger money are really saying we are overpaying some guys that are not up to it. If that is the case, to meet the market leave Yarran to 2016 FA to free up 300k, get the draft picks in with talent allowing to develop and bring in the cheaper talented types like Plowman, Bugg and Weller with bigger futures for us in our window in 3 years time or so with our FA agents. Use the good 2016 draft picks to hold us in good stead. We might decide to trade 2017 draft picks yet, And we could pick up the likes of Redden Goldstein, Yarran, Montagna and who knows else in 2016 as FA. I see no need whywe have to beat ourselves up over 2016 when clearly the majority of our list are looking for success in the future and beyond! We don't have Treloar and Bennell now, Hawthorn seem a bigger obstacle now than GWS and GC into the future, why not see the woods ignoring the trees and look at our gap in 3 years time with Hawthorn. I would be surprised if we are not targeting FA agents from Hawthorn in 3 years time tbh. Hodge, if not playing, could be coaching with us by then as an exrichmond supporter like Bartel!

 

[mcuzzy]

Better tactics, coaching and player development.

Thus: Better players, a lot of our boys wouldn't make it in their side.

Better reputation to attract big name recruits, especially since their flag in 2008.

 

[Komrade_Tiger]

What needs to happen is everyone stop worrying about "hawthorn" and copying their style
We (the clubs) are all just chasing the dogs tail (figuratively), trying to keep up instead of innovating and taking their older players out of the game instead of waitin for them to drop off

 

[TiggerMan22]

Not too much. Good leaders and nearly every player standing up when it matters.

 

[Wild Westiger]

Their leaders lead.
Ours go missing when they are needed.

Correct. Our leaders need to grow into the role a bit more.

 

[Frustrated Tiger]

Took the Hawks a while too...didn't happen overnight...

 

[mcuzzy]

Wish everyone would get over this 'leaders not standing up' rubbish.

If we're using Hawthorn as an example, they still win games when big name players go missing, because they don't have passengers like we do.

Where was Sam Mitchell in Hawthorn's 2008 GF? Where was he in their 2013 GF? Hawks still won both. Even Hodge has gone missing in the build up to Grand Finals.

If a star player gets tagged, then the team mates need to be good enough to make the coach have to really question whether the tag was worth it. Oh, Cotch got tagged and only had 15 touches, but it's okay because Ellis and Miles had over 25 effective disposals each, kicked goals and got assist. Grigg played a good mix of inside and outside footy, dragged opponents away and had 9 inside 50s. Riewoldt and Deledio are struggling a bit in the forward line, we need our midfielders to work harder going forward and our other forwards to take advantage of the extra space. It just doesn't happen enough.

Even better, let's keep it simply shall we? How about move the tagged player to another position to try and have an impact, rather than just leaving him in the midfield? Because Dimma has shown that moving our mids into the forward or backline can be effective, why didn't he do this with Cotchin in the 14 or 15 finals? Even Deledio's lack of time in the forward line in the 15 final was frustrating, both players ran out of steam in the 3rd quarter.

 

[Severe]

Just in case someone mentioned we beat them in the home and away season. It's not comparable in finals.

And sorry if being said..... But they are supremely coached within a millimetre to be hard, clinically precise, and accountable. Everyone knows their role and focuses on beating their opponent.

 

[Da_Pin]

After seeing another one sided grand final again- what is the distance and the factors that we need to address to get to the top that a Hawthorn does so well? Are we their yet? Thoughts welcome- here are some ideas:

1. they recruit players based on needs- Frawley. we need an inside mid and ruck and flanker goal kicker. We have deficiencies.
2. thier players play consistent accountable footy- playing thier role- we have deficiencies.
3. Players are skilled and kit targets. We have deficiencies.
4. Coaching staff- focused and game plan- not sure about this, can dimma and team take us to the next level
5. Off field success- money management and membership- we are there.

more left footers

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/foot-fetish-that-won-hawks-a-flag/story-e6frf9jf-1225847711369