Religion The God Question (continued in Part 2 - link in last post)

[Roylion]

There's actually ALOT of evidence in geology which points to a global flood

Rubbish.

The Bible says that the waters covered the whole earth. "And the waters prevailed so mightily upon the earth that all the high mountains under the whole heaven were covered; the waters prevailled above the mountains, covering them fifteen cubits deep."(Gen 7: 19, 20) For the flood story to be literally true, water would have had to cover Mt. Everest and in places would be more than seven and a half kilometres deep. Mt Everest is over 8,000 metres high. Evidence of such a flood would be easily found in the geological history of the earth. Yet such a record of a world wide flood at the same time covering all mountains and regions of the earth, as described in the Bible does not exist.

Stratigraphy, Seriation, Chronological Marking, Dendrochronology, radiocarbon dating, geological dating, Potassium-Argon dating, Fission track dating, Obsidian Hydration dating, Thermoluminescence dating, Archaeo- and Paleo-magnetism dating, Oxidized Carbon Ratios are all archaeological methods used to date various historical and pre-historical events. None of these methods used to date tens of thousands of geological samples from around the world have confirmed any global flood as postulated in Chapters 6-9 of Genesis.

Many of the world's populated areas do flood on a regular basis. Many areas that are now submerged, were above land during the last ice age and they have been flooded as well. People were in existance at that time. And sometimes you get unusual floods of a catastrophic nature because of a tsumani or an earthquake and other similar phenomena. For example scientists believe that about 500 years ago a tsunami hit the eastern coast of Australia throwing large amounts of beach sand and other sediments several kilometres inland. None of this is evidence for a world-wide flood.

such as thousands of fossilized trees standing upright buried deep in sediment, cutting through supposed "millions" of years of strata.

Where? Where is the peer reviewed scientific report, complete with empirical evidence that confirms this claim?

So how is it that such a vast quantity of fossils of perfectly formed creatures (not a single intermediate btw) are found?

As evidence of a global flood, they haven't been found.

 

[Boston tiger]

... Probably one of the main reasons to live your life to the fullest... rather than waiting for the blessed afterlife...



If you are talking about the Jesus who's mother was a virgin and father was a god... He is fictional.

Jesus walked this Earth what others say about him is up to them.

 

[pokerspiv]

Many of the world's populated areas do flood on a regular basis. Many areas that are now submerged, were above land during the last ice age and they have been flooded as well. People were in existance at that time. And sometimes you get unusual floods of a catastrophic nature because of a tsumani or an earthquake and other similar phenomena. For example scientists believe that about 500 years ago a tsunami hit the eastern coast of Australia throwing large amounts of beach sand and other sediments several kilometres inland. None of this is evidence for a world-wide flood.
.

It's not hard to imagine though for primitive people who probably didn't travel a lot in their lifetime to consider something like a Tsunami to be a flood that covered the entirety of their known world (because their known world would have been about 100 square kilometres). Like I posted earlier though, the theoretical inundation of the Black Sea would have been even more momentous for the people who were living there.

Such an event would have taken place before the invention of writing, so could well have mutated in the retelling to the story we have today.

Note that many religions and cultures have a similar story about a flood, it is not unique to Abrahamic religions. They could all be based on the same event, or perhaps many separate tsunamis.

 

[skilts]

Probably because billions of people don't base their life around the teachings of Pilate, so it's not really that important a question.

Quite so, but there are lots of adherents of the fitness regime he invented.

 

[RobbieGray17]

I'll take it that Baby Duck ignored my scientific discussion or just too scared to discover the truth behind science.

 

[Baby Duck]

I'll take it that Baby Duck ignored my scientific discussion or just too scared to discover the truth behind science.

Why is it that the moment someone challenges what is accepted, you all come rushing to cut them down and gloat. Scientific bigotry at it's best.

There's a lot of truth in science, I acknowledge this. Do you really think I am anti science? There are much deeper truths about life and our existence that no amount of materialist thought and "scientific method" can ever explain though. You all have reached the first hurdle and are too afraid, or will not recognize that there are more to jump over.

 

[Baby Duck]

Rubbish.

The Bible says that the waters covered the whole earth. "And the waters prevailed so mightily upon the earth that all the high mountains under the whole heaven were covered; the waters prevailled above the mountains, covering them fifteen cubits deep."(Gen 7: 19, 20) For the flood story to be literally true, water would have had to cover Mt. Everest and in places would be more than seven and a half kilometres deep. Mt Everest is over 8,000 metres high. Evidence of such a flood would be easily found in the geological history of the earth. Yet such a record of a world wide flood at the same time covering all mountains and regions of the earth, as described in the Bible does not exist.

Stratigraphy, Seriation, Chronological Marking, Dendrochronology, radiocarbon dating, geological dating, Potassium-Argon dating, Fission track dating, Obsidian Hydration dating, Thermoluminescence dating, Archaeo- and Paleo-magnetism dating, Oxidized Carbon Ratios are all archaeological methods used to date various historical and pre-historical events. None of these methods used to date tens of thousands of geological samples from around the world have confirmed any global flood as postulated in Chapters 6-9 of Genesis.

Many of the world's populated areas do flood on a regular basis. Many areas that are now submerged, were above land during the last ice age and they have been flooded as well. People were in existance at that time. And sometimes you get unusual floods of a catastrophic nature because of a tsumani or an earthquake and other similar phenomena. For example scientists believe that about 500 years ago a tsunami hit the eastern coast of Australia throwing large amounts of beach sand and other sediments several kilometres inland. None of this is evidence for a world-wide flood.



Where? Where is the peer reviewed scientific report, complete with empirical evidence that confirms this claim?



As evidence of a global flood, they haven't been found.

Google "polystrate fossils". These are found the world over, but due to them being quite damning for the evolutionary timeline they were and still are largely ignored by the scientific community.

 

[Roylion]

Google "polystrate fossils". These are found the world over, but due to them being quite damning for the evolutionary timeline they were and still are largely ignored by the scientific community.

They haven't been ignored. They've been debunked by geologists the world over as robust evidence of a young earth and a global flood, despite the efforts of creationists to put them forward as evidence for their religious beliefs. "Polystrate" isn't recognized as a scientific term by geologists.

 

[Roylion]

Why is it that the moment someone challenges what is accepted, you all come rushing to cut them down and gloat. Scientific bigotry at it's best.

Unless what is proposed is backed by significant amounts of robust empirical evidence, then yes it will be rejected.

There are much deeper truths about life and our existence that no amount of materialist thought and "scientific method" can ever explain though.

That's your opinion. If you wish to believe things by faith alone then that's up to you. Recognize though, that there are many of us who do not accept a belief in God or the divinity of a holy text on other peoples say so. Especially when such a belief is derived from little more than "faith". If you want to convince people of the validity of your beliefs you're going to have to offer a little more than a mixture of faith and pseudo-science clearly manufactured to support a pre-determined religious belief system.

 

[evo]

Why is it that the moment someone challenges what is accepted, you all come rushing to cut them down and gloat. Scientific bigotry at it's best.

"Scientific bigotry". Hahaargh.

Didnt your mother warn you that playing with Answers in Genesis will make you go blind?

 

[Contra Mundum]

... Probably one of the main reasons to live your life to the fullest... rather than waiting for the blessed afterlife...



If you are talking about the Jesus who's mother was a virgin and father was a god... He is fictional.

Everyone here knows I am a certified God botherer of the Catholic Variety - but I reckon the existentialists have got the best handle on dealing with the finitude of life - just grab life by the **** and live to the fullest according to your own moral code. Christians would more likely be focused on deeds and not words if they did not focus on what came after. The most Christian communites were the early Church because they thought Jesus was going to come back in the next couple of days - as a result they lived an uncompromising life of shared goods and values

 

[Contra Mundum]

Quite so, but there are lots of adherents of the fitness regime he invented.

Pontius Pilate is venerated as a Saint by the poor old Kopts who are Kopting it in the neck at the moment - I suppose its a last temptation of Christ logic in that without Pilate the "atonement" would not have happened

 

[Baby Duck]

"Scientific bigotry". Hahaargh.

Didnt your mother warn you that playing with Answers in Genesis will make you go blind?

Rejecting entirely, and often timed unnecessarily demeaning a person because of their faith = bigotry.

The truth is most people don't reject God because of anything science says, they reject him because they would rather live unrepentant lives and walk after their own lusts and desires.

 

[pokerspiv]

The truth is most people don't reject God because of anything science says, they reject him because they would rather live unrepentant lives and walk after their own lusts and desires.

And you would rather live in eternal servitude to a though-policing, tyrannical sky fairy.

Christopher Hitchens described the Christian idea of heaven as an eternal, inescapable North Korea.

 

[skilts]

Pontius Pilate is venerated as a Saint by the poor old Kopts who are Kopting it in the neck at the moment - I suppose its a last temptation of Christ logic in that without Pilate the "atonement" would not have happened

It could be similarly argued that without Hitler's intervention (nods to Godwin), the state of Israel would never have been realised. Understandably, this argument has little support among those affected by his efforts.

 

[Contra Mundum]

It could be similarly argued that without Hitler's intervention (nods to Godwin), the state of Israel would never have been realised. Understandably, this argument has little support among those affected by his efforts.

I suppose also (according to the Gospels) he did not want to do it

 

[Contra Mundum]

Not vouching for the source in any way (its has some bonkers stuff on it) but it shows the history of Pilate as a saint including some reliefs from early Christian sources which include him: http://www.basarchive.org/sample/bswbBrowse.asp?PubID=BSBR&Volume=19&Issue=6&ArticleID=2

 

[skilts]

I suppose also (according to the Gospels) he did not want to do it

I'm ambivalent about Pilate's contribution to the story, though he seems to be less of a pudendum than he's been painted.

Judas, if acknowledged as the man without whose involvement none of this would have happened, could also be seen as having received unwarranted bad press (this assumes that the eventual outcome is seen as a beneficial one).

 

[Present Not Past]

Pontius Pilate is venerated as a Saint by the poor old Kopts who are Kopting it in the neck at the moment - I suppose its a last temptation of Christ logic in that without Pilate the "atonement" would not have happened

Pilate's wife Claudia (and not him) is celebrated as a Saint in the Eastern Orthodox Church.

 

[Contra Mundum]

I'm ambivalent about Pilate's contribution to the story, though he seems to be less of a pudendum than he's been painted.

Judas, if acknowledged as the man without whose involvement none of this would have happened, could also be seen as having received unwarranted bad press (this assumes that the eventual outcome is seen as a beneficial one).

That's what I meant by the "last temptation of Christ" angle - that book is a rip snorter

 

[Present Not Past]

That's what I meant by the "last temptation of Christ" angle - that book is a rip snorter

What did you think of Scorcese's movie? I really liked and would still watch it. I even went to see it at the cinema when it came out, with all but a handful of people in the cinema.

 

[Present Not Past]

I remember seeing a doco with Scorcese talking about how he made that movie. He was very genuine and open about his Christian faith.

 

[Contra Mundum]

What did you think of Scorcese's movie? I really liked and would still watch it. I even went to see it at the cinema when it came out, with all but a handful of people in the cinema.

I could not believe the Church denounced it and picketed the cinemas - that movie was about as orthodox as you can get - at the last supper Willem converted the wine into blood FFS!! That did not even happen in King of Kings. I loved the movie

 

[Present Not Past]

I could not believe the Church denounced it and picketed the cinemas - that movie was about as orthodox as you can get - at the last supper Willem converted the wine into blood FFS!! That did not even happen in King of Kings. I loved the movie

When it came out I was pretty much an agnostic with just your usual Sunday school understanding of Christianity. When I saw all the Christian Fundamentalists in America denouncing it I thought there must be something to this movie. Plus I knew Scorcese's other films and respected him. Yes, I agree it is a wonderful movie and prefer it to many of the other Biblical movies. In fact, in this doco I saw with Scorcese, he runs through all of the biblical epics up until that time and critiques them. His favouite and the one that inspired him for his movie was The Gospel According to St Mathew by Pasolini.

 

[Contra Mundum]

When it came out I was pretty much an agnostic with just your usual Sunday school understanding of Christianity. When I saw all the Christian Fundamentalists in America denouncing it I thought there must be something to this movie. Plus I knew Scorcese's other films and respected him. Yes, I agree it is a wonderful movie and prefer it to many of the other Biblical movies. In fact, in this doco I saw with Scorcese, he runs through all of the biblical epics up until that time and critiques them. His favouite and the one that inspired him for his movie was The Gospel According to St Mathew by Pasolini.

I have got a video tape version of Gospel according to St Matthew wish I could get it on DVD. As for Marty's intentions there are Christ allegories in all his movies so inevitable he would do a good job on it.