Religion The God Question (continued in Part 2 - link in last post)

[Contra Mundum]

Every line I've ever read by her (and yes I do have a couple of her books) - which obviously isn't EVERYTHING she's written - makes an awful lot of excuses about religion.

She's absolutely entitled to her view. And I'm just entitled to disagree with it.

As for the last part - I've read the Bible. Cover to cover. So I'll freely shellack it, as I do know what the contents are.

Fair Cop brother -I was a bit over the top.

 

[Partridge]

Fair Cop brother -I was a bit over the top.

No problem. Cheers.

 

[HARKER]

Over recent years I had regularly come across an individual who claimed that belief in god and pray had cured him of cancer and would cure all diseases. Anyway saw him again yesterday, was just skin and bones looking like death warmed up and he'd only be about 40. Also noticed not preaching about god.

So to the God believers why do so many believe that God will cure them through a miracle and refuse treatment because of their father in the supposed almighty curing them?

You don't know the answer to that?

If those said people do get better as some will by sheer chance, then that makes them privileged.
If though God doesn't tend to their prayers, then God has a higher calling for them.................It's a win win.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

You don't know the answer to that?

If those said people do get better as some will by sheer chance, then that makes them privileged.
If though God doesn't tend to their prayers, then God has a higher calling for them.................It's a win win.

"Gods plan".

The biggest cop out in the world.

 

[Sydney Bloods]

You don't know the answer to that?

If those said people do get better as some will by sheer chance, then that makes them privileged.
If though God doesn't tend to their prayers, then God has a higher calling for them.................It's a win win.

I thought it was about hope and devotion and of course desperation rather than privilege. Many look to Job (and a whole bunch of jesus "miracles") as the hope that as long as they stay devoted to the christian god he will intervene in lives and relieve them of suffering.

"If god saved the worthy before surely he would save me, I'm a good christian" . It's the same reason people "convert" on the deathbed. When faced with death people will try anything. Like in the late 90's when people tried curing fatal illnesses like cancer with with crystals.

 

[HARKER]

I thought it was about hope and devotion and of course desperation rather than privilege. Many look to Job (and a whole bunch of jesus "miracles") as the hope that as long as they stay devoted to the christian god he will intervene in lives and relieve them of suffering.

"If god saved the worthy before surely he would save me, I'm a good christian" . It's the same reason people "convert" on the deathbed. When faced with death people will try anything. Like in the late 90's when people tried curing fatal illnesses like cancer with with crystals.

There is a certain privilege being on the end of one of gods miracles.
I'm sure we've all heard it many times over but anyway, that is taking things away from the topic as that is more about individuals than for gods existence.............as is this ...........

We know that non-theism is becoming ever so more prevalent and my guess would be that it's happening much quicker than many studies will show up.
I do wonder just how many people would answer 'yes' to the question; Do you honestly believe in the supreme being of your given religion?

I'd also love to see the results to the same question via a poll in the Muslim world. (Imagine that?)
The fear of apostasy is a real one and a life lived under such conditions must be a difficult one for people who truly wish to be free.

 

[Sydney Bloods]

There is a certain privilege being on the end of one of gods miracles.
I'm sure we've all heard it many times over but anyway, that is taking things away from the topic as that is more about individuals than for gods existence.............as is this ...........

We know that non-theism is becoming ever so more prevalent and my guess would be that it's happening much quicker than many studies will show up.
I do wonder just how many people would answer 'yes' to the question; Do you honestly believe in the supreme being of your given religion?

I'd also love to see the results to the same question via a poll in the Muslim world. (Imagine that?)
The fear of apostasy is a real one and a life lived under such conditions must be a difficult one for people who truly wish to be free.

yes, it's rather confronting when you hear people who aren't religious in america talk about how they feel pressured by the majority into the whole christianity thing, how families are split apart from it, etc, etc. there's something like 3-5 states where you must be religious to hold public office.

then think about how a poor SOB must live like in those countries where admitting you don't believe in allah gets you, at least a public flogging. down right scary.

 

[CountryRace]

why do people that are medically Resurrected / near death experiences

seemingly all have the same/similar experiencing of being in a heaven type place, hanging with angels, family, tunnels, light...

and oxford research has found over the course of thousands of years, people have been having similar experences. across time and cultures and religions.

 

[HARKER]

why do people that are medically Resurrected / near death experiences

seemingly all have the same/similar experiencing of being in a heaven type place, hanging with angels, family, tunnels, light...

and oxford research has found over the course of thousands of years, people have been having similar experences. across time and cultures and religions.

I've covered that ground already. Just look into DMT, a chemical we apparently all have housed in our brain.

 

[CountryRace]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_mind

http://www.collective-evolution.com...l-material-world-isnt-really-physical-at-all/

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencet...ics-proves-IS-afterlife-claims-scientist.html

http://www.worldscientific.com/worldscibooks/10.1142/7551

I've covered that ground already. Just look into DMT, a chemical we apparently all have housed in our brain.

i will thanks

 

[HARKER]

Yeah, when we do get wiser and and have a better understanding of how things really work, the Gods we subscribe to now will be all but gone.

I say the Gods we subscribe to, as what man has told us is nothing more than propaganda.

If there are indeed gods (or what we may see as gods) they/he/she/it won't be the ones we've been force fed............Man sure is an ugly beast.

 

[pokerspiv]

why do people that are medically Resurrected / near death experiences

seemingly all have the same/similar experiencing of being in a heaven type place, hanging with angels, family, tunnels, light...

and oxford research has found over the course of thousands of years, people have been having similar experences. across time and cultures and religions.

They Don't.

Kerry Packer was famously revived after a heart attack that left him clinically dead for 6 minutes, and when they asked him about any near death experiences, this is what he said.

"I’ve been to the other side and let me tell you, son, there’s ******* nothing there...there’s no one waiting there for you, there’s no one to judge you so you can do what you bloody well like"

 

[CountryRace]

They do. Thousands of documented causes over thousands of years.

Maybe Kerry in hell

 

[Pie eyed]

why do people that are medically Resurrected / near death experiences

seemingly all have the same/similar experiencing of being in a heaven type place, hanging with angels, family, tunnels, light...

and oxford research has found over the course of thousands of years, people have been having similar experences. across time and cultures and religions.

I think that is simply your appraisal of a few stories you read.
Why do they all have experiences which conform to the dogma their individual religions dictate?
Why do white americans and westerners always see a European bearded Jesus and not a "historically" correct middle eastern Yahweh?
Because it's nothing but mental gymnastics...make believe...hallucination and not just little bit of outright lying.
That and not being dead they never died...they could not even know.

 

[evo]

 

[skilts]

Dead people tend to be unreliable witnesses to any occurrence.

 

[CountryRace]

Dead people tend to be unreliable witnesses to any occurrence.

wrong, they can accurately say what was going on in the hospital room, while they were still dead in most cases

I think that is simply your appraisal of a few stories you read.

no i was reading the work of an oxford professor who is studying this trend across centuries.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ian_Stevenson#Reincarnation_research

 

[Pie eyed]

wrong, they can accurately say what was going on in the hospital room, while they were still dead in most cases





no i was reading the work of an oxford professor who is studying this trend across centuries.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ian_Stevenson#Reincarnation_research

Again just something your heard or read.
All total fiction.
People simple assimilate what they told about their trauma into their own memory as their own and then swear by the "fact".
Are you really this easily convinced?
Perfect believer.
I have a large bridge for sale...you need it as there si a big chance of rain.

 

[CountryRace]

Again just something your heard or read.

yes but not by fat bob down the pub. but rather by authority sources

but rather by people like doctor Ian Pretyman Stevenson; a psychiatrist who worked for the University of Virginia School of Medicine for 50 years. He was Chair of the Department of Psychiatry from 1957 to 1967, the Carlson Professor of Psychiatry from 1967 to 2001, and a Research Professor of Psychiatry from 2002 until his death. He was also the founder and Director of the University of Virginia's Division of Perceptual Studies investigating parapsychological phenomena such as reincarnation, near-death experiences, out-of-body experiences, after-death communications, deathbed visions, altered states of consciousness and psi. He became internationally recognized for his research into reincarnation by discovering evidence suggesting that memories and physical injuries can be transferred from one lifetime to another. He traveled extensively over a period of 40 years, investigating 3,000 cases of children around the world who recalled having past lives. His meticulous research presented evidence that such children had unusual abilities, illnesses, phobias and philias which could not be explained by the environment or heredity.

http://www.near-death.com/experiences/reincarnation01.html




All total fiction.

From what i read it is scientifically researched by smart men.


People simple assimilate what they told about their trauma into their own memory as their own and then swear by the "fact".

incorrect. its been documented they can explain events while medically dead, without having being told

Are you really this easily convinced?
Perfect believer.

yes when scientists and professors of oxford make such claims are decades of research i listen to what they say

how can you be so sure, when you have done zero research?

 

[Sydney Bloods]

ah yes Ian stevenson. if i remember correctly he claimed birth defects and things such as birthmarks and blemishes on the skin are signs of reincarnation, rather than a combination genetic and environmental factors.

wasn't he also the guy who claimed some illnesses were a sign of reincarnation?

you understand the basis of science opposes the idea of arguments from authority. it doesn't matter WHO the person is, what titles he holds or what degrees they have.

the fact is his work was submitted for peer review and was dismissed as flawed and pseudo science by the vast majority of those who reviewed his work. In fact the only group that took his work seriously were paranormal "researchers"

the same people who make claims about apparitions interacting with EMF but have never been able to produce proper evidence.

 

[skilts]

wrong, they can accurately say what was going on in the hospital room, while they were still dead in most cases

Would you accept that being dead would provide an impediment to achieving a state of consciousness? If so, what weight should be allocated to the evidence given by a person who had ceased to be here? Surely, any such evidence should be considered dubious at best.

 

[CountryRace]

the fact is his work was submitted for peer review and was dismissed as flawed and pseudo science by the vast majority of those who reviewed his work. In fact the only group that took his work seriously were paranormal "researchers".

can you link me such paper? I get the impression there would not be a wide range of research into near death experiences, and reincarnation in the outside world (outside of Jesus and co.), hence it would a somewhat unique subject matter and not too easy to peer review

Would you accept that being dead would provide an impediment to achieving a state of consciousness?

i did up until recently

http://www.superconsciousness.com/topics/science/why-consciousness-not-brain

http://www.robertlanzabiocentrism.com/is-death-an-illusion-evidence-suggests-death-isnt-the-end/

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencet...experiences-patients-brought-brink-death.html

http://www.spiritscienceandmetaphys...ciousness-moves-to-another-universe-at-death/

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/10/28/soul-after-death-hameroff-penrose_n_2034711.html

http://www.near-death.com/evidence.html

now i do not know what the go is

If so, what weight should be allocated to the evidence given by a person who had ceased to be here? Surely, any such evidence should be considered dubious at best.

if the person if declared medically dead

and yet cal recall events happens, like how many people were in the room, or whatever. without anyone telling them. which apparently, is common, and authoritatively documented. then that indeed for mine, is some freaky s**t.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

They do. Thousands of documented causes over thousands of years.

Maybe Kerry in hell

This has been discussed before.

It's a 'shut down' process, much like your computer screen flickers before finally going black when you turn it off.

The brain is being starved of oxygen, it knows it is dying. It flickers, and visions are seen.

Does this mean the visions are real? No, not at all. It's most likely just a semi-dreamlike vision, much like a final dream state that we pass through as the brain dies.

That people point to it as sort of proof of an afterlife is ridiculous.

 

[HARKER]

I think it may be fair to say that we'd all wish for there to be a god and for us to collide with a higher calling and enter a resplendent world beyond our imagination..............but unfortunately we've evolved and now have minds, and as primitive as our minds may be......they still give us the ability to collect evidence where we don't rely on crazy things like.......hope........faith......belief...........just to get us through things we don't understand.

It's all a pretty shitty thing I know, but we have to grow up some time and not rely on superstition to give us reason to exist.

 

[CountryRace]

I think it may be fair to say that we'd all wish for there to be a god and for us to collide with a higher calling and enter a resplendent world beyond our imagination..............but unfortunately we've evolved and now have minds, and as primitive as our minds may be......they still give us the ability to collect evidence where we don't rely on crazy things like.......hope........faith......belief...........just to get us through things we don't understand.

It's all a pretty shitty thing I know, but we have to grow up some time and not rely on superstition to give us reason to exist.

it is science but stating that consciousness may continue when dead ...

This has been discussed before.

It's a 'shut down' process, much like your computer screen flickers before finally going black when you turn it off.

The brain is being starved of oxygen, it knows it is dying. It flickers, and visions are seen.

Does this mean the visions are real? No, not at all. It's most likely just a semi-dreamlike vision, much like a final dream state that we pass through as the brain dies.

That people point to it as sort of proof of an afterlife is ridiculous.

its all a bit deep for me,

but i will attempt to find what i was reading and report back