Religion The God Question (continued in Part 2 - link in last post)

[HARKER]

it is science but stating that consciousness may continue when dead ...

its all a bit deep for me,
but i will attempt to find what i was reading and report back

Good for you CountryRace
Regardless of which side of the fence our views are formed, having an open mind is one of the best things one can do for oneself.

One of the most disgusting things we humans can do to one another is to sabotage another's free mind and coerce them to follow our way.
Let the kids be kids and give them the licence to form their own opinions through discovery........You'll love them, (and yourself) more for doing so.

 

[CountryRace]

Good for you CountryRace
Regardless of which side of the fence our views are formed, having an open mind is one of the best things one can do for oneself.

One of the most disgusting things we humans can do to one another is to sabotage another's free mind and coerce them to follow our way.
Let the kids be kids and give them the licence to form their own opinions through discovery........You'll love them, (and yourself) more for doing so.

lol dont belittle me!

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/sci...r-death-in-biggest-ever-scientific-study.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consciousness_after_death#References

 

[HARKER]

lol dont belittle me!

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/sci...r-death-in-biggest-ever-scientific-study.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consciousness_after_death#References

I thought I applauded you................but.............take it as you wish.

 

[CountryRace]

Im just trying to convey, in my non-professional view, these are the current leading scientific theories, or some of of the subject

rather than .......hope........faith......belief..........

 

[HARKER]

Im just trying to convey, in my non-professional view, these are the current leading scientific theories, or some of of the subject

rather than .......hope........faith......belief..........

I've lost track how our communication became muddled but nevertheless, I didn't mean anything bad toward you.

Anyway, as science does take over, all the things we subscribed to a higher power will have more scientific answers to quell our thirst.
The only question for me is not as to whether that will happen but for how much longer we have to wait.

 

[CountryRace]

I've lost track how our communication became muddled but nevertheless, I didn't mean anything bad toward you.

Anyway, as science does take over, all the things we subscribed to a higher power will have more scientific answers to quell our thirst.
The only question for me is not as to whether that will happen but for how much longer we have to wait.

when we get a dead guy to come alive again (mummys that were mummified, could be reincarnated before long...)

thats when the fourhorseman come back

 

[Pie eyed]

yes but not by fat bob down the pub. but rather by authority sources

but rather by people like doctor Ian Pretyman Stevenson; a psychiatrist who worked for the University of Virginia School of Medicine for 50 years. He was Chair of the Department of Psychiatry from 1957 to 1967, the Carlson Professor of Psychiatry from 1967 to 2001, and a Research Professor of Psychiatry from 2002 until his death. He was also the founder and Director of the University of Virginia's Division of Perceptual Studies investigating parapsychological phenomena such as reincarnation, near-death experiences, out-of-body experiences, after-death communications, deathbed visions, altered states of consciousness and psi. He became internationally recognized for his research into reincarnation by discovering evidence suggesting that memories and physical injuries can be transferred from one lifetime to another. He traveled extensively over a period of 40 years, investigating 3,000 cases of children around the world who recalled having past lives. His meticulous research presented evidence that such children had unusual abilities, illnesses, phobias and philias which could not be explained by the environment or heredity.

http://www.near-death.com/experiences/reincarnation01.html




All total fiction.

From what i read it is scientifically researched by smart men.


People simple assimilate what they told about their trauma into their own memory as their own and then swear by the "fact".

incorrect. its been documented they can explain events while medically dead, without having being told

Are you really this easily convinced?
Perfect believer.

yes when scientists and professors of oxford make such claims are decades of research i listen to what they say

how can you be so sure, when you have done zero research?

Chair of Psychiatry.
All in the mind.
I rest my case.

 

[Total Power]

When i used to live in Boston several years ago our next door neighbour had a 3 year old kid who used to speak fluent Russian (the parents were americans and had no russian contacts).The parents were confused on what language this was and sought professional help. No one could explain how a 3 year old kid could speak a foreign language and that even fluent.I stayed in touch with the parents till date, now he is 12 and couldn't speak a word in Russian. Not saying this is the evidence of anything, but fascinating to say the least.

 

[Pie eyed]

Mark Williams?

 

[skilts]

Im just trying to convey, in my non-professional view, these are the current leading scientific theories, or some of of the subject

rather than .......hope........faith......belief..........

That a theory is 'scientific' is no recommendation in itself.

All of these studies of near and post-death experiences depend upon the evidence given by those who are less than here, or there. If you were a lawyer, and hoping to recruit a witness to give evidence in your client's favour, would you choose as that witness somebody who was unconscious at the time of the alleged events? How much credibility should be given to this person's evidence of what went on?

 

[Pie eyed]

What people "believe" occurs when they in near death situations has no more scientific weight than what they believe when they are lucid.
No evidence is just that.

 

[Sydney Bloods]

can you link me such paper? I get the impression there would not be a wide range of research into near death experiences, and reincarnation in the outside world (outside of Jesus and co.), hence it would a somewhat unique subject matter and not too easy to peer review

it's hard to find links as its been rejected in most places and as such they don't often keep links up.
heres one from a ........ lets say less than reputable journal.

you can also try hunting down this one:

Spoiler

it was also submitted for peer review and rejected, the reasons for it should be obvious.

 

[CountryRace]

I get the impression there would not be a wide range of research into near death experiences, and reincarnation in the outside world

not outside, but rather 'ancient' world

whoops

 

[Total Power]

Again just something your heard or read.
All total fiction.
People simple assimilate what they told about their trauma into their own memory as their own and then swear by the "fact".
Are you really this easily convinced?
Perfect believer.
I have a large bridge for sale...you need it as there si a big chance of rain.

you are missing the point. No one doubts for example that a heart failure leads to decreasing oxygen levels.

The question is why and how thwarting electrochemical brain function (e.g. due to low oxygen levels) could possibly lead to experiences such as those described.

An analogy: if low voltage at a TV would trigger certain patterns on the screen, it is a legitimate question to ask why and how these patterns occur. Simply saying "it's the low voltage" isn't a satisfactory explanation.

Sam Parnia's studies show a lot, how can people explain how memory works when someone is clinically dead and there is no electrical activity in the brain. Calling people "liars" doesnt cut it really. Again i am not saying it proves anything, but do dismiss NDE as a normal activity is extremly arrogant.

But scientists at the University of Southampton have spent four years examining more than 2,000 people who suffered cardiac arrests at 15 hospitals in the UK, US and Austria.

And they found that nearly 40 per cent of people who survived described some kind of ‘awareness’ during the time when they were clinically dead before their hearts were restarted.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/sci...r-death-in-biggest-ever-scientific-study.html

 

[Pie eyed]

And they found that nearly 40 per cent of people who survived described some kind of ‘awareness’ during the time when they were clinically dead before their hearts were restarted.

40% Sounds pretty normal to me...?
What you are getting at is trying to describe something pretty normal with a perfectly logical explanation as paranormal.
That is the epitome of arrogance.

 

[Total Power]

40% Sounds pretty normal to me...?
What you are getting at is trying to describe something pretty normal with a perfectly logical explanation as paranormal.
That is the epitome of arrogance.

how can memory function while being clinically dead and there is no electrical activity? are you saying that those scientists are lying about electrical activity?

Btw NDE studies have been published in medical journals and have passed peer review.

http://www.southampton.ac.uk/mediacentre/news/2014/oct/14_181.shtml#.VNh1aouUffe

 

[Pie eyed]

how can memory function while being clinically dead and there is no electrical activity? are you saying that those scientists are lying about electrical activity?

Btw NDE studies have been published in medical journals and have passed peer review.

http://www.southampton.ac.uk/mediacentre/news/2014/oct/14_181.shtml#.VNh1aouUffe

I am not saying anyone is lying, I not disputing that something happens. I am disputing totally that any god is involved in a "normal" physiological response, one which apparently 40% of people remember occurring and more may not.
Then there is the fact none of these people actually die,they may well have been clinically dead, to satisfy a clinician, amny times incorrectly, but the are not dead.
Large numbers have no memory of anything, more remember wild occurencesand some have "religious" hallucinations.

That is all.

You want to hypothesise a meeting with god good for you.

There is no evidence the non-dead have met their culturally accurate version of thier maker in any case.

 

[Total Power]

I am not saying anyone is lying, I not disputing that something happens. I am disputing totally that any god is involved in a "normal" physiological response, one which apparently 40% of people remember occurring and more may not.
Then there is the fact none of these people actually die,they may well have been clinically dead, to satisfy a clinician, amny times incorrectly, but the are not dead.
Large numbers have no memory of anything, more remember wild occurencesand some have "religious" hallucinations.

That is all.

You want to hypothesise a meeting with god good for you.

There is no evidence the non-dead have met their culturally accurate version of thier maker in any case.

Where did i say god? you are putting words in my mouth now. Btw most NDEers say that all religions are incorrect as well, including devout christians.

I think we both agree that the god of religion doesnt exist but to deny a superior force that exists is really arrogant.Einstein himself admitted that personal god doesnt exist, unfortunately god of religion have done a lot of damage to what god actually is. Even Richard Dawkins admitted that!!!

If you would care to read Dr Parnia's full work he has explained why so few people have memories.

 

[Total Power]

For the people who had a near-death experience and out of body experience [their recollection of resuscitation] was really quite accurate and I decided then to ask the control group, the people who’d had a cardiac arrest but had no recollection of anything at all. I asked them if they would reenact their resuscitation scenario and tell me what they thought that we had done to resuscitate them. And what I found is that many of the patients couldn’t even guess as to what we’d done. They had no idea at all. And then some of them did make guesses, but these were based on TV hospital dramas that they’d seen. I found that what they reported was widely inaccurate. So there was a stark contrast really in the very accurate out of body experiences reported and then the guesses that the control group had made.”, Dr. Sartori reported.

http://www.skeptiko.com/eeg-expert-on-near-death-experience/


Goes to show most people having memories a NDE, sucessfully stating what went on in a medical room are not lying

I am still waiting for someone to answer, how can consciousness, memory function without an electrical activity? lets keep god out of it for now pls

 

[Engimal]

Wait, what is the 'God Question'?

 

[Pie eyed]

Where did i say god? you are putting words in my mouth now. Btw most NDEers say that all religions are incorrect as well, including devout christians.

I think we both agree that the god of religion doesnt exist but to deny a superior force that exists is really arrogant.Einstein himself admitted that personal god doesnt exist, unfortunately god of religion have done a lot of damage to what god actually is. Even Richard Dawkins admitted that!!!

If you would care to read Dr Parnia's full work he has explained why so few people have memories.

Sorry, I am not going to accept that a normal physiological event is evidence of a supernatural force just because it suits your fancy.
As I said, regardless of what people hypothesise there is no evidence to support anything unnatural or supernatural is occurring in NDE's.

 

[Pie eyed]

Wait, what is the 'God Question'?

Why.....that is the question.

 

[Engimal]

Why.....that is the question.

I am so confused.

 

[skilts]

Why.....that is the question.

'Who?', 'what?', 'where?' and 'when?' are equally valid questions. What do you think the chances are that this thread will yield any meaningful answers to any of these questions? Damn, there's yet another question.

 

[Total Power]

Sorry, I am not going to accept that a normal physiological event is evidence of a supernatural force just because it suits your fancy.
As I said, regardless of what people hypothesise there is no evidence to support anything unnatural or supernatural is occurring in NDE's.

For a scientific minded person like you, i am disappointed with your answer. You have not answered my question that how can memory/consciousness continue to work when there is no electrical activity in the brain? your answer was: so thats proof of god? I am not even talking about god, you are convinced its "in the brain", when you cannot even answer the very basic question