Religion The God Question (continued in Part 2 - link in last post)

[Total Power]

I think you need to get your arguments in a bit better order before I can engage with you any more.

Why did you appeal to string theory to show that there was things beyond materialism ? I presume you realise String Theory is a scientific theory?

Yes ofcourse, we know of other existing dimensions, we just cant access it.There might be dimensions beyond what string theory states as well, but no one knows what they are, what is string theory suggests is the existence of a world beyond our own.Its just like asking a flatlander about our world.

 

[Total Power]

OK.
Then there should be evidence...not your claims...evidence.
The answer to your second question is all of modern neuroscience.
I won't list every single study, but I'm sure you know how google works.
Then there are studies of...Pilots, mountaineers, divers, almost anyone who suffers oxygen deprivation..(if you're cluey you'll notice that Hypoxia is the number one explanation for NDE hallucinations too...could be a hint for you there.)
Studies of literally thousands of war injured, car accident victims, memory loss sufferers drug victims boxers, football players, cancer sufferers.
The swathe of studies and physical experiments on the frontal lobe etc etc etc etc...
REM sleep studies, induced dreaming....well scant evidence really but as I said you know how Google works.
Knock yourself out...should take a month to cover one of each category in any detail.

There is evidence in Dr Van Lommel, dr Parnias studies. I said granted the sample size is small but its verified that consciousness can exist while the brain is not working

“We know the brain can’t function when the heart has stopped beating,” said Dr Sam Parnia, a former research fellow at Southampton University, now at the State University of New York, who led the study.

“But in this case, conscious awareness appears to have continued for up to three minutes into the period when the heart wasn’t beating, even though the brain typically shuts down within 20-30 seconds after the heart has stopped.

“The man described everything that had happened in the room, but importantly, he heard two bleeps from a machine that makes a noise at three minute intervals. So we could time how long the experienced lasted for.

How else do you think we prove consciousness? if you have a suggestion please let dr parnia know.

I am not sure what you are trying to prove with the rest of your post. Every NDEer while asked if its similar to a dream said its NOT similar to a REM sleep. Modern neuroscience does not state brain and consciousness are the same thing, it doesnt make claims as in "its different" or "the same". We just do not know.

Hallucinations from oxygen deprivation from pilots are quite common and have experience OBEs granted, but they are nothing like the NDE's .Care to read them online? as you said google power

 

[Total Power]

Like a mad womans s**t....comes to mind.

care to play the ball and not the man?? you are an angry man it seems. Nice cop out of the hawking stuff before though

 

[Pie eyed]

There is evidence in Dr Van Lommel, dr Parnias studies. I said granted the sample size is small but its verified that consciousness can exist while the brain is not working



How else do you think we prove consciousness? if you have a suggestion please let dr parnia know.

I am not sure what you are trying to prove with the rest of your post. Every NDEer while asked if its similar to a dream said its NOT similar to a REM sleep. Modern neuroscience does not state brain and consciousness are the same thing, it doesnt make claims as in "its different" or "the same". We just do not know.

Hallucinations from oxygen deprivation from pilots are quite common and have experience OBEs granted, but they are nothing like the NDE's .Care to read them online? as you said google power

Brain cells without enough oxygen will begin to die after about four minutes.
I read Dr Parnias summary of his own study.
He wrongly states that the brain ceases to function with 20-30 seconds after heart failure, but other than that there is nothing in his summation which I would disagree with. He clearly believes all these experiences are normal occurrences with a sound physiological explanation such as brain hypoxia or the patent actually being able to hear or see despite cardiac arrest for a limited time. As he clearly explains, none of the patients studied died.
Link to his words...http://www.southampton.ac.uk/mediacentre/news/2014/oct/14_181.shtml#.VNn2qfmUeDk

“Thus, while it was not possible to absolutely prove the reality or meaning of patients’ experiences and claims of awareness, (due to the very low incidence (2 per cent) of explicit recall of visual awareness or so called OBE’s), it was impossible to disclaim them either and more work is needed in this area.

 

[Total Power]

Brain cells without enough oxygen will begin to die after about four minutes.
I read Dr Parnias summary of his own study.
He wrongly states that the brain ceases to function with 20-30 seconds after heart failure, but other than that there is nothing in his summation which I would disagree with. He clearly believes all these experiences are normal occurrences with a sound physiological explanation such as brain hypoxia or the patent actually being able to hear or see despite cardiac arrest for a limited time. As he clearly explains, none of the patients studied died.
Link to his words...http://www.southampton.ac.uk/mediacentre/news/2014/oct/14_181.shtml#.VNn2qfmUeDk

Ok so lets assume, the cells not dead completely, However EEG has flatlined, aka there is no activity in these cells.How is that not evidence?

Also if i assume your theory is correct and a person is in coma, how can he still verify everything thats happening in the room?

 

[Total Power]

I think you need to get your arguments in a bit better order before I can engage with you any more.

Why did you appeal to string theory to show that there was things beyond materialism ? I presume you realise String Theory is a scientific theory?

Let me give you a different analogy, we know universes/multiverses etc etc.We also know the universe is vast. The possibilities are endless. String theory has opened the door to those possibilities. As we explore these possibilities we will see that theres more to what meets the eye (and 5 senses).
For example, if we can prove something faster than the speed of light, science as we know today, will change.Are you saying in this universe nothing exists faster than the speed of light? its just like saying life doesnt exist anywhere else.

 

[Pie eyed]

care to play the ball and not the man?? you are an angry man it seems. Nice cop out of the hawking stuff before though

I clearly "played" yourargument as it is all over the place like...
and I am not angry at all. I am having a beer watching an episode of Cosmos with the cat.
Why is it people always assume disagreement manifests anger? If I was angry I would not even respond.

Ok so lets assume, the cells not dead completely, However EEG has flatlined, aka there is no activity in these cells.How is that not evidence?

Evidence of what?
That the patient is conscious?
Can't argue with that.
"Conscious patient aware of surroundings!"
Shock horror.
The basis of my entire discourse.

 

[Total Power]

Brain cells without enough oxygen will begin to die after about four minutes.
I read Dr Parnias summary of his own study.
He wrongly states that the brain ceases to function with 20-30 seconds after heart failure, but other than that there is nothing in his summation which I would disagree with. He clearly believes all these experiences are normal occurrences with a sound physiological explanation such as brain hypoxia or the patent actually being able to hear or see despite cardiac arrest for a limited time. As he clearly explains, none of the patients studied died.
Link to his words...http://www.southampton.ac.uk/mediacentre/news/2014/oct/14_181.shtml#.VNn2qfmUeDk

Also let me add in case of hallucination/REM sleep, the brain is super active, in NDE this is NOT the case. As i said EEG is flatined.So where is your evidence?

 

[Pie eyed]

Let me give you a different analogy, we know universes/multiverses etc etc.We also know the universe is vast. The possibilities are endless. String theory has opened the door to those possibilities. As we explore these possibilities we will see that theres more to what meets the eye (and 5 senses).
For example, if we can prove something faster than the speed of light, science as we know today, will change.Are you saying in this universe nothing exists faster than the speed of light? its just like saying life doesnt exist anywhere else.

Unicorns
Unicorns are way faster than light.
You have never seen one have you....
Way faster.
Gravity is faster than light because ti can work on two electrons on different sides of the universe at the same time...relatively.

 

[Total Power]

having a civil discussion with you is impossible, you are going to ridicule everything that does not fit your belief system.Sugarcoating your "beliefs" with science will not help you.

 

[Total Power]

I clearly "played" yourargument as it is all over the place like...
and I am not angry at all. I am having a beer watching an episode of Cosmos with the cat.
Why is it people always assume disagreement manifests anger? If I was angry I would not even respond.

Evidence of what?
That the patient is conscious?
Can't argue with that.
"Conscious patient aware of surroundings!"
Shock horror.
The basis of my entire discourse.

you are not reading what i am saying.Hallucinations result in super active brain, same was applying magnetic ray on the back of the brain resulting in OBE. NDE' result in NO EEG activity!

 

[Pie eyed]

Also let me add in case of hallucination/REM sleep, the brain is super active, in NDE this is NOT the case. As i said EEG is flatined.So where is your evidence?

Evidence that that consciousness resides in the brain?
Are you just asking for general evidence of everything?
You asked for evidence to support that statement.
I think I supplied that..surely you have not read all of it already?

Anyway, beside the discussion on awareness near death, which now has no connotation regarding God apparently, I think the discussion of string theory and "proven" external dimensions should probably continue in a more suitable thread.

 

[Total Power]

Evidence that that consciousness resides in the brain?
Are you just asking for general evidence of everything?
You asked for evidence to support that statement.
I think I supplied that..surely you have not read all of it already?

Anyway, beside the discussion on awareness near death, which now has no connotation regarding God apparently, I think the discussion of string theory and "proven" external dimensions should probably continue in a more suitable thread.

I will ask one last time and i would expect you answer without deflection: If its in the brain, why doesnt EEG say anything about it? can you please answer?

 

[Pie eyed]

having a civil discussion with you is impossible, you are going to ridicule everything that does not fit your belief system.Sugarcoating your "beliefs" with science will not help you.

Cool. Happy to assist.
I am a beliefless militant atheist constantly confabulating your speculation with pesky evidence and doubt.
Or not.
Which is it?

 

[Total Power]

Cool. Happy to assist.
I am a beliefless militant atheist constantly confabulating your speculation with pesky evidence and doubt.
Or not.
Which is it?

By your own admission, you are not going to change your mind, regardless the evidence.What you state is your "belief" too, you are too confused about what science is or isnt.

 

[Pie eyed]

I will ask one last time and i would expect you answer without deflection: If its in the brain, why doesnt EEG say anything about it? can you please answer?

I have no idea. I have seen no mention of this phenomena anywhere but in your posts.
Do you have a link to support the claim?
Did you even read the paper I linked to by Dr Parnias?

 

[Total Power]

I have no idea. I have seen no mention of this phenomena anywhere but in your posts.
Do you have a link to support the claim?
Did you even read the paper I linked to by Dr Parnias?

I have pasted a link before, which obviously you didnt read.

http://www.skeptiko.com/eeg-expert-on-near-death-experience/

"
Dr. John Greenfield: Well, so there are a few studies. There’s not much really published on this very much but when we suspect that patients may be brain dead or very near brain death and they have flat EEGs, often we’ve done studies to look at blood flow to the brain or glucose utilization in the brain. There are a few radio isotope kind of tracer studies that let you look at those questions and very often they show very little brain activity. So a flat EEG typically correlates with a very inactive brain."


For near death experience skeptics, medical evidence of a flat EEG during an out of body experience has always been a stumbling block. After all, a brain dead patient can’t hallucinate.

 

[Total Power]

similarly skeptics try to debunk pam reynonds case hallucination but forget that again that was a case of a Flat eeg as well, there are hundreds such documented cases like dr ring, dr van lommel, dr parnia, dr greyson etc etc.

 

[Total Power]

Heres one more

http://www.biosciencetechnology.com...earchers-find-brain-activity-beyond-flat-line

“Fascinating,” says medical resuscitation expert Sam Parnia of a recent PLOS One study finding highly unexpected electrical activity in the hippocampus of one man, and 26 cats, with flat-lined “isoelectric” electroencephalograms (EEGs).

 

[Pie eyed]

By your own admission, you are not going to change your mind, regardless the evidence.What you state is your "belief" too, you are too confused about what science is or isnt.

By my own admission I am not going to change my mind based on your pleading true.I stand by that too.
I was not even inviting you to try.
Clearly, there is overwhelming evidence that during cardiac arrest there is a common (up to 40%) physiological response to brain hypoxia.
To quote from the very study ( the largest study ever done) you put up as evidence. You really should read what youlink to.

Only 9 per cent had experiences compatible with NDEs and 2 per cent exhibited full awareness compatible with OBE’s with explicit recall of ‘seeing’ and ‘hearing’ events.

“Thus, while it was not possible to absolutely prove the reality or meaning of patients’ experiences and claims of awareness, (due to the very low incidence (2 per cent) of explicit recall of visual awareness or so called OBE’s), it was impossible to disclaim them either and more work is needed in this area. Clearly, the recalled experience surrounding death now merits further genuine investigation without prejudice.”

Which is almost exactly word for word, what I wrote at the beginning of this discussion.
You supplied this science to shoot down your own argument.
Now I am playing the man.
You are clueless.
Guess what. Still happy, still having a beer.
Cheers.

 

[Total Power]

I have no idea. I have seen no mention of this phenomena anywhere but in your posts.
Do you have a link to support the claim?
Did you even read the paper I linked to by Dr Parnias?

I did, did you? Sam states

""During cardiac arrest brainstem activity is rapidly lost. It should not be able to sustain such lucid processes or allow the formation of lasting memories."

 

[Total Power]

By my own admission I am not going to change my mind based on your pleading true.I stand by that too.
I was not even inviting you to try.
Clearly, there is overwhelming evidence that during cardiac arrest there is a common (up to 40%) physiological response to brain hypoxia.
To quote from the very study ( the largest study ever done) you put up as evidence. You really should read what youlink to.





Which is almost exactly word for word, what I wrote at the beginning of this discussion.
You supplied this science to shoot down your own argument.
Now I am playing the man.
You are clueless.
Guess what. Still happy, still having a beer.
Cheers.

So i assume i am not getting a reply on the "no brain" activity then? yes ofcourse you will play the man now cause you CANNOT ANSWER! go have a beer and think about it, come back tomorrow refreshed after googling www.skeptic.com

When in doubt, play the man!

 

[Pie eyed]

Heres one more

http://www.biosciencetechnology.com...earchers-find-brain-activity-beyond-flat-line

So the EEG did not work yet he found electrical activity?
Google how an EEG works.
LOL.
Anyway enough lols for tonight, Sagan is winding us up.

 

[Total Power]

So the EEG did not work yet he found electrical activity?
Google how an EEG works.
LOL.
Anyway enough lols for tonight, Sagan is winding us up.

Nice selective quote, your bullying tactics (typical of a militant atheist) and self acclaiming victory wont fool me. You have quoted selective stuff but left out"

"With cardiac arrest, the insult to the brain is so severe it stops the brain completely. Therefore, I would expect profound memory loss before and after the incident," he added.

So according to you this is wrong? and in a cardiac arrest people are capable of having lucid vivid experiences with perfect recollection of the events? care to produce an evidence or are you going dodge the question again? CLAIMS are not sufficient, this is science, you try to hide under the bannner of science, its time for you to produce an evidence.

Let me dumb it down for you even more:

Near-death experiences have been reported for centuries but in Parnia's study none of the patients were found to have received low oxygen levels, which some skeptics believe may contribute to the phenomenon.

When the brain is deprived of oxygen people become totally confused, thrash around and usually have no memories at all, Parnia said. "Here you have a severe insult to the brain but perfect memory."

Now since you pretend to be scientific, lets assume its hypoxia/anoxia. What does science say about anoxia and memory formation? to guide journal of neuroscience

Hypoxia/Reoxygenation Impairs Memory Formation via Adenosine-Dependent Activation of Caspase 1

Taken together, our results indicate that hypoxia/reoxygenation increases caspase 1 activity in the brain, thereby impairing amygdala-based memory formation.

http://www.jneurosci.org/content/32/40/13945.full

This clearly states that lack of oxygen and then the process of reoxygenation does NOT lead of solid memory formation. Where is your evidence that memories function perfect under anoxia/hypoxia?

Heres what another journal states

https://caregiver.org/hypoxic-anoxic-brain-injury

Even when a person has fully recovered consciousness, he or she might suffer from a long list of symptoms. In many ways, these symptoms are similar to those commonly seen after a blow to the head. The effects can vary widely depending upon the part of the brain that has been injured and the extent of the damage. Some of the major cognitive (thought) problems are:

• Short-term memory loss. This is the most common cognitive symptom, especially among those who have HII. The reason is that the part of the brain that is believed to be responsible for learning new information, called the hippocampus, has neurons that are highly sensitive to oxygen deprivation.

Science is clear on memory formation incase of hypoxia/anoxia.You are claiming everything is a result of hypoxia or anoxia.You couldnt be more wrong. Vivid recollection of events and perfect memory (even if the sample is small) is NOT cause of anoxia.

Parnia’s group has found that, of the ten percent of people revived after being declared dead post-cardiac arrest, two to three percent report an ability to recall things they shouldn’t, like conversations held by clinicians when the patients were flat-lined. Increasing studies like these indicate that "eventually we may have to relook at death," Parnia says.

From a perspective of 2.5 year old

One patient was 2½ years old when he had a seizure and his heart stopped. His parents contacted Parnia after the boy "drew a picture of himself as if out of his body looking down at himself. It was drawn like there was a balloon stuck to him. When they asked what the balloon was he said, 'When you die you see a bright light and you are connected to a cord.' He wasn't even 3 when had the experience," Parnia said.

"What his parents noticed was that after he had been discharged from hospital, six months after the incident, he kept drawing the same scene."

The brain function these patients were found to have while unconscious is commonly believed to be incapable of sustaining lucid thought processes or allowing lasting memories to form, Parnia said — pointing to the fact that nobody fully grasps how the brain generates thoughts.

So again this puts |ying, or anything out of question..a 2.5 year old is not capable of lying. But again i ask you or the 300th time, show me anoxia leads to increased awareness and perfect memory.

You are claiming when heart stops, the brain misfires, this leads to a perfect vivid lucid experience with all memories intact. Here is a study of cardiac arrest leading to memory loss
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8688775

Clinically important impairment of memory was common after cardiac arrest outside hospital. Improvement in response times of emergency services could reduce the severity of such deficits. With an increasing numbers of people expected to survive cardiac arrest outside hospital, rehabilitation of those with memory deficit merits specific attention.

Again, please show me the evidence after cardiac arrests lead to perfect memory formation.

I am glad i provided you with the laughs, come back when you have a reply to my questions without deflections, insults and stuff. You are clever, you know the debating techniques well and you also know how to avoid answering a question when you cant.

P.S By calling you a militant atheist i dont mean to insult you, you are a Hitch wannabe, little substance and a lot of hot air, uses fundamentalism (of non religious type) in their favour by twisting what science has to say... typical example is string theory and hawkings.You realise M theory projections supports the assertions made by string theory.String theory looks solid..for now anyway.

 

[Total Power]

Even if i give in to the fact that theres some brain acitivity, assuming EEG technology is wrong etc. That has rarely ever been the reply of serious survivalist scientists like Parnia, Pim Van Lommel, and Fenwick. Their argument has always been that the amount of brain activity is INSUFFICIENT to explain the effect. Not that there is no brain activity. You may be characterizing the nde community at large; But this has never been a falsification in the eyes of serious NDE researchers.

Please research brain activity under scientific conditions for .1 REM Sleep 2. Hallucinations 3. NDE.

You made references to hallucinations and REM sleep several times. Please provide the evidence that NDE is actually a hallucination in the brain supported by EEG evidences which reflects the same.I dont think you are that dumb to know the brain is super active during REM sleep, the brain is also hyper active during hallucinations like mountaineers or fighter pilots while they experience OBE. Please provide me the evidence that the brain is hyper active similarly in case of a NDE and not just a tiny blip in the EEG radar. If you cannot do that i suggest you quit arguing and just say "i dont know'

You will see for memory to work under NDE, Its almost impossible