Religion The God Question (continued in Part 2 - link in last post)

god or advanced entity?

  • god

    Votes: 14 40.0%
  • advanced entity

    Votes: 21 60.0%

  • Total voters
    35
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Sep 21, 2009
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Feb 24, 2013
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The basis for Pascal's wager was that only believers go to heaven. There's is plenty of confirmation to be found in the bible for this belief. Eg
Luke 18:18-23.

A certain ruler asked him, "Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?"

"Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good--except God alone. You know the commandments: 'Do not commit adultery, do not murder, do not steal, do not give false testimony, honor your father and mother.'"

"All these I have kept since I was a boy," he said.

When Jesus heard this, he said to him, "You still lack one thing. Sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."


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All still a massive bonus though when you think there is no reason for us being here. Biggest fluke ever so just enjoy every second.
The "fluke" argument is iffy.
Life could be as inevitable as a star dying and creating heavy elements....
 
The basis for Pascal's wager was that only believers go to heaven. There's is plenty of confirmation to be found in the bible for this belief. Eg
Luke 18:18-23.

There is even more evidence that it is true, Heaven being devoid of occupants.
Seems to implicate those who claim to believe....;)
The irony, or the travesty, depending on your demeanor is that those who don't go to heaven are dead, so they don't know there is none. They do not even know their attempts to believe were wasted effort.
 
cancat is an agnostic?

For those who buy that, please PM me, I have some weight loss tea that is guaranteed to work.
Who were you in your last BF life Oct 15?
 
Feb 24, 2013
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There is even more evidence that it is true, Heaven being devoid of occupants.
Seems to implicate those who claim to believe....;)
The irony, or the travesty, depending on your demeanor is that those who don't go to heaven are dead, so they don't know there is none. They do not even know their attempts to believe were wasted effort.

A good catholic passes away & is met at the pearly gates by St. Peter; who proceeds to take him on a guided tour of heaven. The new incumbent notices an extremely long & tall brick wall, which seemingly appears to stretch on forever....He enquires of St. Peter; " I thought heaven was supposed to be eternal & unbounded"?...."OH, it is, it is", responds St. Peter...."Then What's the go with the wall"?...retorts the newbie..."Oh, that's where all the protestants live" replies St Peter....He concludes: "They like to imagine their the only one's here."
 

skilts

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It's positive from the perspective of grasping Nietzsche's thought from ground zero....What do I mean by this?....Without holding any prejudices or presuppositions....Hence his concept of nihilism, as a perspective of divine innocence & strength to avoid falling into the trap & pitfalls of conceptual generalization; which splits mankind off from the real-world before him. If we strip modern-man of all his ignorance, prejudices & learned education, what we are left with is a divine, noble & sacred being: Untouched, untainted & untrammeled by the degeneracy & insidious homogenizing effects of modern society upon the soul: Roussea's Noble Savage if you will.
Nietzsche never embraced nihilism, in fact, he spent most of his active life decrying its manifestation in religion.

The bolded bit indicates that you think Nietzsche's, Human, All Too Human was an horrendous miscalculation by him. That you attribute an embrace by Nietzsche of concepts such as 'soul', 'divine' and 'sacred' as his ambition for human existence indicates a profound misunderstanding of his work.

In an earlier post you seemed to be admitting that you appropriated Nietzsche's thought, in a particular way, to suit some unstated purpose. Was this your considered approach to the way philosophy should be done? It sounds like a very dodgy method to me.

Finally, you write as if 'consciousness' is a thing set in stone and is available to being as a thing to be contemplated in a meaningful way. This shows no regard for the ever-changing nature of that thing, if it can be known at all. So much so, that trying to paint consciousness as a thing-in-itself is doomed, until that consciousness is ended, usually by death. At this stage, we still await the news of the experience of that consciousness from who have ceased to be. Even if it were possible to say consciousness, the moment you did, you would be immediately wrong, if only through the effluxion of time.
 
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1. Nietzsche never embraced nihilism, in fact, he spent most of his active life decrying its manifestation in religion.

2. The bolded bit indicates that you think Nietzsche's, Human, All Too Human was an horrendous miscalculation by him. That you attribute any embrace by Nietzsche of concepts such as 'soul and 'sacred' indicates a profound misunderstanding of his work.

In an earlier post you seemed to be admitting that you appropriated Nietsche's thought, in a particular way, to suit some unstated purpose. Was this your considered approach to the way philosophy should be done? It sounds like a very dodgy method to me.

Nietzsche's 'philosophy' is often represented as the 'philosophy of Nihilism'....Why?....Because he spent his entire life tearing down the idols of our past philosophical tradition, in exposing the shaky grounds of being upon which most of it was built, including & most especially Platonism & Christianity....One reason why some commentators ascribe a Buddhist element to his thought.

Nietzsche oftentimes speaks of the 'Noble-soul' as against the soul full of reactive tendencies as characterized by ressentiment....He often utilizes the feudal division of nobles/serfs to differentiate
between the 2 distinct type of souls....See his later work Beyond good & Evil for many examples of this.

The choice as to which words/concepts most accurately describe & capture the idea intended by Nietzsche is often in the hands of & at the mercy of his German translators into their English equivalent. Be that as it may, Nietzsche constantly refers to the state & soul of a man in his later works....For you to state the opposite as an example of my ignorance is, in fact, to confess your own of his entire body-of-works!

What is sacred to Nietzsche is the sanctity of each mans will & consciousness to their own truth/life....He despises followers of any sort, whom he often refers to as embodying a herd-mentality....

Finally; Human All Too Human is often recognized as one of his more juvenile works prior to the full development of his own perspective....However, given that most of his thought is made up of & consists of aphorisms, then pretty much any position can be built from which to represent his overall philosophy & thought. (Much as the Nazi's did!)....He is easily open to misrepresentation because of this.

Many post world war 2 English translators for example, were hyper-critical of what they saw as Nazi-elements incorporated throughout his writings....Especially in his sister's concocted "The Will to Power" after he went insane. Of course today, we know that nothing could be further from the truth.....He despised National Socialism & ended his association with Wagner because of his.

Finally....As for appropriation of a differing perspective: That is what higher research & original thinking is all about....Presenting thinkers & ideas from a fresh & new perspective in a manner which can be both explicated & defended competently!....DODGY?....Dear Oh....Well done there!o_O
 
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Finally, you write as if 'consciousness' is a thing set in stone and is available to being as a thing to be contemplated in a meaningful way. This shows no regard for the ever-changing nature of that thing, if it can be known at all. So much so, that trying to paint consciousness as a thing-in-itself is doomed, until that consciousness is ended, usually by death. At this stage, we still await the news of the experience of that consciousness from who have ceased to be. Even if it were possible to say consciousness, the moment you did, you would be immediately wrong, if only through the effluxion of time.

I see you've added an addendum....Pretty much a big NO to everything you've stated here.

First of all. Consciousness is not a thing!...It's an invisible force of will, energy & awareness....So much for all the clap-trap that follows thereafter.

You're reasonably new to this philosophy thing I see.:)
 

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Finally....As for appropriation of a differing perspective: That is what higher research & original thinking is all about....Presenting thinkers & ideas from a fresh & new perspective in a manner which can be both explicated & defended competently!....DODGY?....Dear Oh....Well done there!o_O
So, you're an unashamed crook, prepared to misrepresent another's thought to feed your tawdry needs.

What proof do you proffer of existence of 'soul'?

You are living proof that Nietzsche's thought has been/is misrepresented.
 
Feb 24, 2013
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So, you're an unashamed crook, prepared to misrepresent another's thought to feed your tawdry needs.

What proof do you proffer of existence of 'soul'?

You are living proof that Nietzsche's thought has been/is misrepresented.

Dear Lord:rolleyes:....What is it about the terms 'explicated' & 'defended competently' you're having trouble with?
 
Nietzsche oftentimes speaks of the 'Noble-soul' as against the soul full of reactive tendencies as characterized by ressentiment....He often utilizes the feudal division of nobles/serfs to differentiate
between the 2 distinct type of souls....See his later work Beyond good & Evil for many examples of
this.
his best work, in my opinion.


The choice as to which words/concepts most accurately describe & capture the idea intended by Nietzsche is often in the hands of & at the mercy of his German translators into their English equivalent. Be that as it may, Nietzsche constantly refers to the state & soul of a man in his later works....For you to state the opposite as an example of my ignorance is, in fact, to confess your own of his entire body-of-works!
But he is not referring to a literal soul. This is typical of his poetic language - what he is referring to is more like a psyche, as in a personality type, than a soul.
 
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his best work, in my opinion.

But he is not referring to a literal soul. This is typical of his poetic language - what he is referring to is more like a psyche, as in a personality type, than a soul.

Thus spake Zarathustra is my fav.:thumbsu:.... All his mature works encompassing both those 2 & his 'Twilight of the Idols & The Anti-Christ' represent the core of his philosophy, where he is at his volcanic best.

His Apollonian/Dionysian thesis in The Birth of Tragedy is also a work of genius.

The 'Death of God' is first mentioned in one of his middle works: 'The gay science'!

Nietzsche is certainly no materialist....He's far too bright to fall into that trap:...He's the closest thing you could get to a protestant mystic.....And definitely the first modern philosophical psychologist since Plato.

Yes....The ancient Greek notion of psyche is the more apt....But it's nearest contemporary equivalent is 'Soul' & the 2 are often used interchangeably by translators depending on their bent....In fact; Nietzsche's entire philosophy can be seen as a tour-de-force of the human psyche....A field he pioneered, from which both Freud (via Lou Salome) & Jung (Who wrote a 2 volume treatise on Nietzsche) would develop further.
 
. Surely once higher order is taken out of the equation any s**t that happens has to be a fluke.

Well why would that matter even if it were true? To call something a fluke is merely a subjective assessment. Many things appear to be flukes because we don't have all the information.

Looked at another way: to say that if a guiding force is taken out of the equation then everything is a fluke is a tautology.
 

Boston tiger

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Well why would that matter even if it were true? To call something a fluke is merely a subjective assessment. Many things appear to be flukes because we don't have all the information.

Looked at another way: to say that if a guiding force is taken out of the equation then everything is a fluke is a tautology.

Ok then it's a tautology. So what ?

Yes we are lacking just a little info on this subject.

And no it wouldn't matter if it were true.
 
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Ok then it's a tautology. So what ?

Yes we are lacking just a little info on this subject.

And no it wouldn't matter if it were true.

we've been through this before, a fluke implies other outcomes were possible. we have no data to support this claim.
let's say you'd never heard of basketball, no one had.

someone comes across a basketball court randomly, picks up a ball and throws it through the net in one go, is this a fluke?

it's impossible to know UNLESS the person re-attempts the feat.
 

Boston tiger

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we've been through this before, a fluke implies other outcomes were possible. we have no data to support this claim.
let's say you'd never heard of basketball, no one had.

someone comes across a basketball court randomly, picks up a ball and throws it through the net in one go, is this a fluke?

it's impossible to know UNLESS the person re-attempts the feat.

Certainly....the term fluke was a fairly throw away line because if it happened it happened.

Our existence happened. Was there ever the touch of a power beyond our comprehension involved.

I try to put myself in the position of a
non God ,non higher force, non supernatural thinker and all I can come up with is that...... there was never a beginning and that eternal existence is not a supernatural concept because technically one day it could be explained scientifically etc.
Is that the sort of the gist of it?

Ps I think I might fluke comment may have been more along the lines of when something happens when you didn't intend it too happen. Eg no one intended life to occur or or planets to form or existence to exist.
I was passing the ball to my team mate and it went in the goal. " what a fluke "
Sure once it left my hand it was always going in I just didn't intend it to happen.
 
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Certainly....the term fluke was a fairly throw away line because if it happened it happened.

Our existence happened. Was there ever the touch of a power beyond our comprehension involved.

I try to put myself in the position of a
non God ,non higher force, non supernatural thinker and all I can come up with is that...... there was never a beginning and that eternal existence is not a supernatural concept because technically one day it could be explained scientifically etc.
Is that the sort of the gist of it?

well the problem with what you've come up with, Is it uses terms that are not really applicable, the universe had a beginning we know this, the big bang model relies on such an event the universe is 13.82 billion years old. If you deny that the universe had a beginning, You do not believe in the accepted model of universal expansion and without realising it you've already wandered off to go sit with the supernatural thinkers.
the next is the problem of external existence, again it's not really applicable anything that's eternal is no older than 13.82 billion years, time and space were created with the big bang.

if you want a rational non supernatural explanation, you can only rely on observation. That observation is limited and you must accept it.

You ask for an to what happened before the big bang, I don't have an answer as to what occurred before the big bang, I don't try to invent one, Nor do i side with any answer other people have invented and this is the only honest position a person which does not rely on the supernatural can take. The fact is nobody knows and anybody who claims otherwise doesn't have any falsifiable evidence to support their answers either. The moment you accept an answer as a simple "truth" particularly one without falsifiable evidence, you blind yourself to every other possibility.

Perhaps one day science will find the answer, Perhaps we won't. The fact is unless you're mature enough to admit we don't know and current there is no way to know, Then you're simply lying to yourself. You're asking for answer to a question we haven't answered and trying to use it as trump card.

The question is do you want to THE answer or do you want to know AN answer?
and can if do want THE answer can you handle possibly never knowing?
for those that just want AN answer, Well there's an entire market for that, take your pick.
 
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We all, each of us, have an ultimate choice....We are either God's children or we are Cosmic Orphan's!

What about us Cosmic Fence-Sitters, the Agnostics? I don't hedge a bet either way - the good I do in life I do because I feel it's right, not because I expect heavenly punishments or hellish rewards. The question may burn bright in others but I don't actually CARE why I'm here - I'm just gonna f*cking enjoy myself regardless.

And that's it.
 
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- the new testament was written 100s of years after christ. was god really that lazy that he couldn't be f'd doing it earlier or was he still grieving about the death of his son? (sense of humour not meant to offend)
- same said with the old testament.......would it take god 200 years to do?
The majority of the New Testment was written within a hundred years of Christ's death, a lot of it only a few decades after.
 

Boston tiger

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well the problem with what you've come up with, Is it uses terms that are not really applicable, the universe had a beginning we know this, the big bang model relies on such an event the universe is 13.82 billion years old. If you deny that the universe had a beginning, You do not believe in the accepted model of universal expansion and without realising it you've already wandered off to go sit with the supernatural thinkers.
the next is the problem of external existence, again it's not really applicable anything that's eternal is no older than 13.82 billion years, time and space were created with the big bang.

if you want a rational non supernatural explanation, you can only rely on observation. That observation is limited and you must accept it.

You ask for an to what happened before the big bang, I don't have an answer as to what occurred before the big bang, I don't try to invent one, Nor do i side with any answer other people have invented and this is the only honest position a person which does not rely on the supernatural can take. The fact is nobody knows and anybody who claims otherwise doesn't have any falsifiable evidence to support their answers either. The moment you accept an answer as a simple "truth" particularly one without falsifiable evidence, you blind yourself to every other possibility.

Perhaps one day science will find the answer, Perhaps we won't. The fact is unless you're mature enough to admit we don't know and current there is no way to know, Then you're simply lying to yourself. You're asking for answer to a question we haven't answered and trying to use it as trump card.

The question is do you want to THE answer or do you want to know AN answer?
and can if do want THE answer can you handle possibly never knowing?
for those that just want AN answer, Well there's an entire market for that, take your pick.

Fair enough we don't what happened before the Big Bang or why there was a Big Bang.
 

Boston tiger

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Musing of an intuitive thinker.
I can't see a sabre tooth tiger behind that tree.. I can't smell a sabre tooth tiger behind that tree .. I can't hear a sabre tooth behind that tree but I rekon there is a sabre tooth tiger behind that tree so I'm going to go another way.

Analytical thinker. I can't hear, see or smell a sabre tooth behind that tree so I'll continue towards it. Sometimes there is.

Intuitive thinker.. Gee the chief looks pissed; there is a bad vibe going down here. I'm keeping my mouth shut.

Analytical thinker. I going to ask the Chief why we lost the battle so we can improve next time. Analytical thinker gets his head cut off.

Intuitive thinking is a gene that gets passed on.

To just know is to be human.

I'm not saying some humans are on a higher level of consciousness it's just that some of us do know the answer to the God question.

Please take all that with a grain of salt.

But I do believe intuitive thinking is the cornerstone of the God concept not myths passed on etc.
 
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