Analysis The Goldsack Conundrum
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Quicky
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This is a really interesting topic on both sides of the coin. I'm not sure where I really sit because I think both arguments have merit. To me it comes down to a team balance issue and I think there is definitely room for a player like Goldsack in the side. One thing that I don't believe has been brought up is the experience and maturity that a player like Goldsack brings to the team on an otherwise extremely young list. You have seen at Melbourne and Gold Coast and GWS the challenges a lack of experience poses to a developing list. On our list, for this reason, players like Goldsack are very important when you throw in the other positives (summarised so well by Prestige Presti) that they bring to the table.
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But with the experiance side we're getting back our 2 premiership defenders in Brown and Reid. Swan is going to rip it up this season being injury free and our midfield is still being led by Scott Pendlebury and we still have Cloke up in the forward line. Then we have those middle guys that are about to mature into the experienced bracket in Elliott, Greenwood, Sidebottom, Adams. Right now we have enough experience to build around, our focus should be developing the first round draft picks we've invested in over the last few years. Goldsack shouldn't get in the way of that.
You realize there are 22 spots in a team right? I'm sure we can fit in Goldsack without robbing the talented kids of games.
If we can fit in Tony Armstrong I'm sure we can fit in Nathan Freeman somewhere...
jackcass
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Come round 1 we still only have 16 players on the list with 50+ games experience. Yes, some of the kids have exceeded expectations and would probably claim places in most peoples "best 22" sides but they still need to be nurtured and developed. The reason kids like Pendles, Sidey, Beams, Reid, N Brown and Thomas slotted so well into the 2010 premiership team is the number of senior players who carried much of the heavy lifting during the H&A season. Goldsack and Blair rightfully will get opportunities ahead of some of these kids and if/when one of these kids demands their senior spot so be it but Blair a lot more vulnerable than the Sack.
Goldsack will be a big part of how our kids develop.
The example he sets on the track, how he follows coaching instructions to a tee, he puts the team ahead of himself, one of the leaders in the desire indicators.....Goldsack may not be the most talented guy on our list, but if the young talented kids see the example that a guy that Goldsack sets than they will have great careers.
Goldsack is in our best 22
Lefthanded
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Also factor in 2 of the 16 won't be match fit or will be underdone by round 1 (Young & Caff)
Also factor in 2 of those 50+ games are Fas & Elliott - both lots of room for improvement in their games and they are only 22.
I have to disagree with you there Vicky Park. Goldsack would be a lock in selection in the first 22 side each week unless he has a serious loss of form. Leadership is so important in modern day footy that you can't afford to have any of your leadership group not playing each week. I always thought last year that Keeffe and Young were poor choices for the leadership group as they were never guaranteed senior selection in the team.
cleomenes
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The two players being questioned here have different attributes and failings.
Goldsack is just a few points shy of being a star. By this, I mean that he is able to take great marks under pressure, but often doesn't quite hold them. He has a fantastic long kick, but miskicks a few too many. He attacks the ball better than most, but has a habit of fumbling when he looks to where he will dispose of it a fraction too early. He has fantastic pace. One great year could see him confident enough to do all of these things really well, and we would be applauding a star. There is very little in it. There is no way you would give up on him.
Blair has good but not elite evasiveness, is a solid mark and attacks the ball really well. He is a reasonable kick under most circumstances, but has always struggled to accurately pass the ball when he is running free. He almost always half volleys it to his leading forward. It is the last problem that is his undoing as a senior player, and will probably see him replaced by someone who can pass better. That player will have to bring roving abilities equal to Blair's to the table though, and this is not as easily done as said. I don't see him as done quite yet.
Goldsack is just a few points shy of being a star. By this, I mean that he is able to take great marks under pressure, but often doesn't quite hold them. He has a fantastic long kick, but miskicks a few too many. He attacks the ball better than most, but has a habit of fumbling when he looks to where he will dispose of it a fraction too early. He has fantastic pace. One great year could see him confident enough to do all of these things really well, and we would be applauding a star. There is very little in it. There is no way you would give up on him.
Blair has good but not elite evasiveness, is a solid mark and attacks the ball really well. He is a reasonable kick under most circumstances, but has always struggled to accurately pass the ball when he is running free. He almost always half volleys it to his leading forward. It is the last problem that is his undoing as a senior player, and will probably see him replaced by someone who can pass better. That player will have to bring roving abilities equal to Blair's to the table though, and this is not as easily done as said. I don't see him as done quite yet.
jackcass
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VPs point does remain valid, being in the leadership group doesn't and shouldn't guarantee senior selection. The leadership team is selected by the players as far as I'm aware so obviously the players thought highly enough of Young and Keeffe to select them irrespective of their likely senior selection.
Think we try to read too much into some of these selections rather than respecting the players (better informed) choices.
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I think this post creates a lot of confusion. there is a BIG Difference between defensive pressure and Tackles per game. if you are front on in your opponents face and force and errant kick out on the full that is defensive pressure but it doesn't count as a tackle.
mattys123
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Interesting that Bucks said something along the lines of "if they don't impact the scoreboard they won't be in the team" when talking about forwards the other day.
That means either one of two things for Goldy;
1. He's not going to play as a forward
2. He is going to play as a forward but isn't a certainty to keep his spot.
Goldsack doesn't kick goals as a forward, and all the defensive pressure in the world doesn't make up for that.
If he's to play, he has to play a defensive role, in the defensive half of the ground.
That means either one of two things for Goldy;
1. He's not going to play as a forward
2. He is going to play as a forward but isn't a certainty to keep his spot.
Goldsack doesn't kick goals as a forward, and all the defensive pressure in the world doesn't make up for that.
If he's to play, he has to play a defensive role, in the defensive half of the ground.
You can impact the scoreboard without kicking goals.
Goldsack causes many goals directly from his turnovers but some fans only notice the guy who is on the end of his hard work and give him all the credit.
mattys123
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Yes you can, but you also have to still actually score at a regular rate yourself.
Other highly rated forwards with good defensive skills like Ballantyne and Walters at Freo actually score as well as placing pressure on.
Goldsack averages about 0.5 goals a game, or 1 goal every 2 games, that's not good enough for anyone starting on a forward line, no matter how much pressure they are creating.
I can't see how Goldy goes into the leadership group then keeps playing this role, he needs to assist in other areas to make us a better team.
Jasper84
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I would be interested in Ballantyne and Walters goal average if they spent half their games in the backline.
I'm not sure what relevance Goldsack's average goal per game stat has when he has played a huge portion of his career in the backline and even some on the wing.
Ballantyne getting a few frees because he is an annoying little s**t does not equal defensive skills, Walters has poor endurance and both are in the team for the offence they provide. Mayne is the one who you should compare Goldsack to as they actually play similar roles, while Ballantyne is much more similar to Elliot.
I'm not suggesting it's fine if Goldsack kicks hardly any goals, but it's not the stick he should be measured with. If highly defensive forwards can't exist because they don't do both things, then I guess we better say good bye to guys like Brown Toovey and Frost who provide very poor offence.
mattys123
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Goldsack has spent hardly any time in the backline over the past two seasons, yet has a return of 16 goals in 33 games. Yes it's largely irrelevant to look at stats before that, but in those 2 seasons he's spent as much time forward as just about anyone else.
I'm not having a go at Goldy here, I just think he's better off elsewhere in the side.
Apex36
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Can't agree with you here Matty. A good defensive forward like Goldy is vital, even if they only kick a goal a game. The goals he creates with his turnovers and defensive efforts are worth their weight in Gold(sack).
The big issue for me is that the side can't carry two defensive forwards in the side like we did in 2014. The real issue here is that one of Blair or Goldsack will either have to significantly increase their offensive output, or find themselves in the VFL.
For me, Goldy has a significant advantage over Blair due to his height, speed and versatility. His ability to play pretty much anywhere on the ground at a pinch is just way more valuable than Blairs forward/mid usage and his much talked about '1 percenters'.
In one of our games earlier on in the year I remember the commentators were raving about Goldsacks pressure acts. Leigh Matthews was also one of the commentators and he made a comment something along the lines of "it's all well and good to be a good tackler but you can't tackle if you have got possession of the ball". He was basically alluding to the fact that Goldsack is a good defensive player but needs to actually do more offensively and needs to get much more possession.
I love the Sack but I do agree with Leigh Matthews on this point, if Goldsack is going to remain a permanent best 22 at the club then in my opinion he needs to start having an influence with ball and not just as a defensive pressure player.
I love the Sack but I do agree with Leigh Matthews on this point, if Goldsack is going to remain a permanent best 22 at the club then in my opinion he needs to start having an influence with ball and not just as a defensive pressure player.
Bard
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Yeah he needs to average in the high teens in disposals, would be enough IMO.
That comment might have been from ANZAC day? It's definitely a game I've watched multiple times since...
jackcass
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I think was more a reflection of the team as a whole rather than on Goldsack specifically and I agree, would be fantastic if these "defensive role player" types were more offensive but the team needs to get the ball and maintain possesion for that to occur.
gutsroy
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Sounds a bit like the sequel to the Bourne trilogy, this thread.
As others have indicated, Goldsack's versatility (ability to play a number of roles forward and back, including an ability to play defensive stopper roles on athletic forwards) probably justifies his spot in the side. Blair doesn't have the same degree of flexibility (midfield aursts / up forward) and has stagnated.
Just my two cents.
As others have indicated, Goldsack's versatility (ability to play a number of roles forward and back, including an ability to play defensive stopper roles on athletic forwards) probably justifies his spot in the side. Blair doesn't have the same degree of flexibility (midfield aursts / up forward) and has stagnated.
Just my two cents.
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My memory may be faulty here, in which case I'm sure you all will tell me the error of my ways...but
2010 GF(1) No Sack - we draw
2010 GF(2) Sack in - we win by heaps, and who kicked the first goal ?
