The kick in conundrum!

[acuguy]

All this talk about our kick ins means it requires a thread (hate doing the mods jobs for them)

Our kick ins are woeful. Instead of bagging our current list, let's look at what is required for a great kick in structure and where we sit with it.

1. An elite kick of the footy and decision maker to kick the ball in. This player must be able to hit 15 metre to 60 metre passes with a penetrating kick. This allows for multiple areas on the field for us to kick to and hence can spread a zone/ one on one defensive strategy. Currently our opposition can zone in on 60 metre structure, we throw an elite long kick and that zone moves out to 75 metres, this equals more space BL Players- Drummond?? Rich?? Docherty??? We really struggle in this fundamental part of the structure. I guess Docherty is our hope for the future.

2.Targets- Having a 3 point key target system is key. This generally looks like a ruckman moving hard to one side with a group on onballers running with him -see Nick Nat, T.Goldstein. Elite marking defender hitting part of the defensive zone where he can create a one on one mismatch- See Harry Taylor. Your key forward pushing up to centre circle and creating a contest in the guts. These are the 3 kicking points, success in one or 2 of these areas will see the Zone contract on these players hence creating more room for chip and run kick ins.

We are void of targets at the moment- Hudson is out jumped, Patfull as our second key defender isn't big enough to expose a player and Browny has never been a great pack competitor and is less these days.

BL players- Luey solves the ruck problem, Merrett is an elite one on one mark, i see him being used at CHB more than FB when Goose comes back, we need to use his marking. Lisle has shown glimpses of being able to compete hard in the air

3. Working Together- Running patterns and workrate are essential as Haggis said. In times of stress we need our players to stick to the plan. Unrewarded running creates holes and gaps for others all the time. Pushing hard as a group to one side, creates a vacuum of space for others to work in etc etc

4.Reaction Time- To implement our plans everyone must react quickly, it doesn't mean the ball has to move in straight away, but every player needs to transition into their kick in structure roles, these should vary according to where each player is at the given time. That is why our runners must know the plans and then have the leadership to communicate to each other regardless of how many games you have played

 

[josephs_79]

The biggest problem with our kick in's (which I have noticed more and more) is our kickers tend to kick to a 1 v 3 or 1 v 4 situation where by our player has absolutely no chance of winning the ball. Even when there are 3 or 4 others running free or a 3 v 3 situation... it is becoming more and more frequent and wondering if it is some sort of tactical plot\plan or if it really is just indecision to the point that they get flustered with the umpire about to call play on and kick and hope.

It is not just on kick ins either. Seems to be when marked in the backline or across that 50 meter area....

 

[POBT]

Good post acuguy.

I'm starting to think that (1) is not our problem. When Drummo's in, the improvement is only marginal. The issues have to be structural and workrate.

My issue isn't that we don't score from kick ins (although that would be nice). It is that we seem to kill the contest a lot less than our opponents do. The good sides get a break even outcome (stoppage) or generate an inside 50. We struggle to even achieve the break even position.

I used to think that this part of the game would improve eventually, as we improved. Now, it is clear to me that this is a fundamental building block of modern footy and we need to start to get it right before we can see genuine improvement.

On the weekend, we had 11 kick-ins and our opponent had 17. That is 28 different opportunities to secure possession. There were 63 clearances. Therefore, while not as important as clearances, kickins (both attacking and defending) are vital parts of modern footy.

 

[Haso]

(hate doing the mods jobs for them)

It's about time you did something around here.

Good thread though.

 

[BigCat2]

Some good points made. I think our biggests issue is guys who are not able to move into a position to become an easy target to hit. Even when we have Drummond kicking out, if we go to a 50/50 or 1 vs 2 you're only a rough chance of winning the ball.

Other teams, once they've conceded a behind, one guy goes immediately to retrieve the ball and get ready to kick, and kicks it soon after the goal umpire signals. At the same time, 1 or 2 other guys are already streaming into into flanks of our defensive 50, with a good 5-10m lead on their man, allowing an easy target to be hit as long the kick is good. I have never seen our guys do this. It's not hard - 1 guy goes to pick up the ball, 2 other blokes run in the opposite direction.

Another thing is, once the defensive press is set, our guys up field not only do not provide movement, they hold hands with their opposition, even sometimes stand behind them. Are they trying to NOT provide a target? Baffling.

It's not a fitness issue - it's a willingness and structure issue. If we can win the easy ball from kick outs, then we can save energy from having to win the contested ball.

 

[dlanod]

All this talk about our kick ins means it requires a thread (hate doing the mods jobs for them)

The rest of us are allowed to create threads... We just have to start them with "Operation", which I see you failed.

1. An elite kick of the footy and decision maker to kick the ball in. This player must be able to hit 15 metre to 60 metre passes with a penetrating kick. This allows for multiple areas on the field for us to kick to and hence can spread a zone/ one on one defensive strategy. Currently our opposition can zone in on 60 metre structure, we throw an elite long kick and that zone moves out to 75 metres, this equals more space BL Players- Drummond?? Rich?? Docherty??? We really struggle in this fundamental part of the structure. I guess Docherty is our hope for the future.

Drummond really does make an amazing difference. He has the confidence and ability to both kick it long and also make short accurate kicks into the middle of the zone to break it apart. Out of the remaining options, Hanley is probably the next best option. Adcock and Patfull don't have great kicking accuracy, and Merrett has a long looping style that takes too long to get to the target. Hanley can take on a defender and then belt it long or provide some reasonable accuracy.

BL players-

Luey solves the ruck problem, Merrett is an elite one on one mark, i see him being used at CHB more than FB when Goose comes back, we need to use his marking. Lisle has shown glimpses of being able to compete hard in the air

Merrett moving up forward has made him realise how good a mark he is now. It's great to see him take them in defence instead of always spoiling. Looking forward to a structure similar to what you propose.

All the rest I agree with.

 

[Dylan12]

One thing I have noticed 'live' at games is that for whatever reason a particular player will get the ball after a point has been scored and instead of just moving the ball on when there are immediate options, will wait for the designator kicker to come back to the sqaure, by which time the immediate options have been covered by opposition players and we then wait to implement whatever tatcic such as kick the ball long wide to a pack outside 50 containing Hudson and usually the opposition's ruckman or we chip it 15m sideways to the pocket.

I'm all for a designated kicker, but most players (sorry Browny/Huddo) should be given a licence in such circumstances to immediately kick out if clear options are presented.

 

[Haso]

I'm all for a designated kicker, but most players (sorry Browny/Huddo) should be given a licence in such circumstances to immediately kick out if clear options are presented.

I'm in the 'never let Brownie kick out ever again' camp.

 

[BrisbaneLion9636]

I'm in the 'never let Brownie kick out ever again' camp.

Has Brown ever done a kick out?

 

[Haso]

Has Brown ever done a kick out?

Once this season. It did not go well.

 

[acuguy]

The cats talk about having the confidence to pull the trigger out of the backline. I guess we need to develop this as well. Just on Hanley, he has elite foot skills but isn't an elite decision maker at this stage.

 

[PattyKwasagun]

I can only remember seeing us go down the middle with a kick-in once in the past 2 years, and it resulted in the winning goal vs west coast. Our biggest issue is that we're far too predictable. Whoever's kicking out will look around a bit, but then almost always just bang it long to the wing where a few talls are. Issue is, we have no real pack mark specialists at the moment, so it just hits the ground and becomes anyone's ball. The issue there is that as soon as it's back in play and a free ball, the class of our opposition normally shines through and they get it back in their forward fifty.

Leuy back will definitely help though.

 

[ZoBlitz]

I guess one question to ask is, which teams are the best at using their kick-ins to set up scoring opportunities and what do they do exactly.

 

[TheRoyLuckClub]

I feel like all our deficiencies come down to a lack of confidence, in self, in teammates.

I was watching some clips of Banfield 2011 and he was a different player. 5 players whose confidence is(are?) shot. (only my opinion)

Polks: no one is more surprised than him that he's getting a game.
Drummond: can't trust his own body, and been downhill since rocky beat him in the kicking challenge.
Banfield: he knows he's not performing better than players underneath him
Cornelius: in/out prospect week to week - no wonder hes a nervous wreck.
Hanley: a confidence player, as most irish are, who has only performed in games against bottom teams generally

Throw in the fact that most under-twenty gamers are by their very nature low on confidence, (and we have plenty of those).

Throw in a series of losses, and general confidence drops.

Throw in a layman "supporter" anonymously talking trash on the Internet (me). Can't help morale.

Tldr: low confidence is a killer.

 

[Ironmonger]

Good thread. This is a very serious problem for us. it has already cost us at least one game (against Adelaide last season) and possibly more.

It's not just a matter of kick-ins, of course, but clearing the ball from dead ball situations in the defensive 50 in general. Against the Eagles a few weeks ago, almost all of their first half goals ultimately came from positions where we'd had a mark, free kick or kick in in our own defensive 50, but couldn't even clear halfway before it came back for a goal.

I think Acuguy has identified some key points, and I'd add one more to the mix. Movement. Ultimately clearing the ball from defence is about not just your own structures, but the opposition's as well. Everyone practices setting up for defending kick-ins these days, and its hard to penetrate a well organised formation unless you try to disrupt it in some way. We need players ducking in and out of structures, setting up mismatches in different parts of the defensive area, creating options and forcing the defenders to either move around or accept that they can't close down the whole area.

 

[Cousin Jed]

Too slow. If the tv networks can show a replay and you still haven't kicked out you are doing it wrong.

 

[chopperduck]

Structure and work rate i think is the problem, combined with the cattle. Our kick ins are the same as the way we deliver the ball from HB to HF, we go slow and long with a high kick to a contest near the boundary to no particular players advantage (on our team). Our overall play needs to be shorter, go a few 15-20m passes to get the defenders moving first, then pick a forward and kick it OUT IN FRONT OF THEM, NOT ON THEIR HEAD. This happens because our boys aren't moving and creating space for our tall targets to lead into. I think it's part structural and part that the team doesn't have the legs (or confidence now at this point) to do this for four quarters. This is why players like Zorko and Rocky stand out because they are always moving, always leading and always finding space, therefore get the ball kicked to them.

I guess this brings the chicken or the egg question into though. Does no one bother moving short because we always just kick it long? or are we kicking it long because there are no short options? Earlier in the year we were clearing the ball from contests a lot better as well with a few handballs, getting it out to someone who had a bit of time and space to look for an option and kick to them. Now we are back into bad old habits and are grabbing the ball and just hurry kicking it forward.

It's something that i hope will improve, all over the field, in the coming years. Lower the eyes boys.

 

[RU_]

I havent seen a single time that we have gone to a short option, it's always bomb it to a huge contest, where we are highly outnumbered 5-2 or 6-3. We have 3 other players somewhere on the ground, USE THEM.

 

[Fatcat08]

like chopperduck said at the start of the year we were clearly targeting the shorter options from kick ins. We'd go short to the pocket and then either a) short again a little bit further infield and work it out from there or b) longer down the line ensuring that it was at least 2 kicks to goal, rather than a handball and then kick. Lately we've completely stopped this and even when we have gone short with the first its the second kick thats been lacking as we haven't had another shorter target to kick to. Combined that with the fact we are taking too long to kick in and we've been slaughtered in this regard.

Leuenberger has been a big loss in this regard too as Hudson has been too tired to either get to the long kick or put an effective attempt to mark on it. Also Brown hasn't been upfield quite as much and we've really lacked a marking target to at least guarantee a contest. Luenberger and Longer together in the team would mean we would at least guarantee a 50/50 contest most times if we had to bomb it long due to lack of options. The eagles use cox and to a lesser extent Nicnat very well by getting them one on one and backing them to either mark or bring the ball down.

 

[POBT]

I havent seen a single time that we have gone to a short option, it's always bomb it to a huge contest, where we are highly outnumbered 5-2 or 6-3. We have 3 other players somewhere on the ground, USE THEM.

I don't know if that is true. We do take the short option, even if it is the dink pass to the pocket.

I actually don't have a problem with the long kick to the boundary contest. It is the fact that we're unable to take a mark, secure possession or kill the contest that concerns me. It is certainly numerical but it is also the personnel.

 

[Bucking Beads]

We just don't have enough players that want to be options. No leads, no movement they all just stand around.

 

[chopperduck]

I don't know if that is true. We do take the short option, even if it is the dink pass to the pocket.

I actually don't have a problem with the long kick to the boundary contest. It is the fact that we're unable to take a mark, secure possession or kill the contest that concerns me. It is certainly numerical but it is also the personnel.

My previous post combined with this is what really kills us. When we go long to that contest a few things aren't happening. 1 - we aren't kicking to our advantage, we are just kicking it long to a contest, sometimes an out numbered one and this should never happen. 2 - Even if we manage to take the mark, it's usually our tall forwards who have ran all the way down to be this target. Yay we have the ball on the wing, now we have no forward line to kick it to. The amount of times our forward 50 is totally empty when we have 2 tall key forwards is stupid. 3 - we can't take the mark and our mids then either lose possession by not winning the hard ball and finding a support player, or we don't win the clearance from a resulting ball up or throw in. This all happens about 70m (ie one quick kick) from our own goal, making it way too easy for the other team.

We need to keep one of our tall forwards inside 50 to lead into all this space we seem to create in the forward 50 for nobody. We need to demand that the mids and other smaller players work hard, MOVE and present to be that link option across the middle of the ground. If we are well held up by the other team, by all means go for that long kick to the boundary towards the ruck or 1 of our talls, but we need to keep some kind of structure and forward line within scoring range of goal.

Another thing is as our confidence drops, our players stop moving. We don't have confidence in each other to win the ball or tackle the opposition, and as a result, the hard running to present as an option to receive the ball or move into position stops, and we get stuck in a defensive mindset. This spreads to the defenders who start going 3 up at contest, leaving no one down and then giving up simple goals to opposition crumbers. Basic things like staying goal side, not manning the mark correctly, allowing them to play on, run past and have a shot on goal, these are things that shouldn't happen. We have shown we can play well, and when we are on and in good form, we can match it with good teams. But many young and inexperienced players makes this something very hard to maintain for 1 whole game, nevermind an entire season. It's something that should improve with experience and as our best 22 gets more settled. I don't think until you have a best 22, you can be any real threat to other teams. Of any best 22 combination, there is probably 4 or 5 players that you could swap out for someone else that deserves it just as much, and that's around 25% of the team. This can and should transfer into depth in the coming years, which is the positive.

 

[PattyKwasagun]

Or, as Ash McGrath puts it:

Name: Geoff
Suburb: Sandgate
State: QLD
Question: G’day Ash, loved your work this year. What’s the answer to fixing our kick ins? They are just no good.
Probably just hit a target mate.

 

[Nick Lions]

I don't have too much of an issue with kicking it long, along the boundary. They are simply playing the percentages. The part we get wrong is that we kick to outnumbered contests along the boundary, which makes it hard to kill the contest or take a mark. However, we play the percentages to often, which I believe is due to a lack of work rate and spread, from the 'targets'. I wouldn't mind seeing the guys take the risk of going straight up the guts, a little more. It is the shortest possible route from goal square to goal square after all. A designated 60m pin point kicker isn't necessarily the answer either. It would be nice to have one to fall back on, but I'd rather see our entire backline be capable of taking a solid 40-50m kick in, so that we don't have to wait and let the opposition set up their structures.

 

[acuguy]

We basically need an injection of better players to make all these fundamentals come together. It may only take 1 or 2. Can't see the current list being able to address this issue too much.